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Default 12-15-2011, 11:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Amir al Ghaznavi View Post
Islam will always in some form be a part of my life. I love Islam altho I find faults in it. Its just not for me.

I cant hate or insult Islam because thats akin to hating or insulting my father or my qawm. I do admit to getting drawn into the debates. But thats my fault. Discussions I dont belong in or make me enemies I should avoid

As non believing Pashtuns, we should keep our views to ourselves as Islam is and always will be an integral part of our societies

one thing i advise other non muslim pashtuns on, is that in our homeland these religious debates are not simply an exercise in theological debate as it may be in the west.

our homeland is destroyed by non muslims, so these conversations have extra degree of sensitivity

Right on brother! These guys fail to see that Islam is an integral part of the Pashtun social fabric yet still choose to abuse it to cover up their own shortcomings. If someone is shoving their beliefs down your throat you have the right to defend your self but some people do so very inconsiderately that it doesn't matter what they are saying or defending anymore.
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Default 12-16-2011, 12:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Alchemist View Post
Let's have a truce.

I am really tired of this game.

Everyone just stop focusing so much of my energy on this senseless battle.

The atheists have a problem with Allah. Let them deal with it on Qiyama.

We have more important issues that need to be dealt with in this world - such as the situation of Afghans in Afghanistan and the slow brainwashing of pashtuns in Pakistan.

Let's go back to that...and leave this discussion for the Afterlife. I don't see a reason why atheists or muslim should have a problem with this proposal.


Truce?
My friend, thats a wonderful suggestion and I think its what I have been trying to say in terms of what the real debate and the real worldwide discussion that everyone should be having... not just Muslims in the West or folks who derive from traditionally Muslim lands. Thats why I try to generally avoid commenting on the Islamic theology thread unless something interests me or unless there is a blatantly wrong point.

These odd references to wine and whether God created it or not or whether women can marry pieces of bark etc are red herrings meant to detract from a far more important discussion. Its an attempt by a minority of these folks to justify what Kipling used to call "civilizing the little brown brother."

Its a bait and switch tactic that goes something like this:

Video 1: Muslims beat up women...
Video 2: Muslims are hypocrites and secretly drink wine in madrassahs but cut of heads of locals that simply mention wine
Video 3: Muslim make woman drink acid and then laugh the evil dracula laugh.

Then they leave these up with the hope that some simple clod walked away with the message:
Wow, I thought America was wrong for intervening in Afghanistan and fighting these guys! They are crazy and need some dp uranium bombs dropped on them!

The second implicit message they hope to send is:
Maybe... just maybe... the problem is the Quran and Islam itself! Now go and dwell on that for a little while!

The third message they send is:
Osama attacked us because Britney Spears can dance on tables! He hates our way of life! The US did not to instigate him ever.... he's like the bad guy in a harry potter movie.

^ Lavanay Zalmay tends to use this last tactic rather often and it really is ahistorical nonsense. Mr Bin Ladin was to the Arab world what Che Geuvara's insurgency was to Latin America.

One might have accused Dr. Geuvara of carrying his revolution, that was a response to the worldwide game played by the Americans and the Russians in places like Chile and Bolivia, of going uninvited to places like Cuba and Bolivia to fight a war that none of these citizens asked him to fight.

The issue is not that these men were heroes or right or moral or whether their methodology was ethical or not. Its that when you read their logs and diaries, 99% of their words indicate that their motives had everything to do with American interventionalism in their countries and not at all to do with how Americans live in the Northern American continent.

The discussion is not islam versus atheism or secularism versus democracy.

The real debate and question that should have been forced on these folks is whether it matters at all if their obviously absurd and false assertions are true or not.

They attempt to connect mutually exclusive dots with one another... for example:
American involvement in the Muslim world is not justified by some idiot in a madrassah chaining up mentally handicapped people anymore than any Muslim force would be justified taking action because Catholic Preists rape young kids or because Ted Haggard tells kids to sign up for the US military and preaches in a mega church while sodomizing boys.

Their general assertion is that its perfectly valid for America to intervene, force a foreign way of life onto people anywhere in the world, and to simultaneously benefit strategically.

The problem with this ethical construct is that its these two diametrically ethically opposite scenarios:

1. House across the street is lived in by abusive husband, beautiful wife, and 3 kids. Husband beats wife to pulp day and night. Neighbor decides to intervene because he is truly worried about the kids and the lady and wants the guy to reform.

2. House across the street is lived in by abuse husband, beautiful wife, and 3 kids. Husband beats wife to pulp day and night. Neighbor wants to be the hero for the beautiful wife so that he can get rid of the husband and have his way with her... so he decides to intervene though he has no proof that the wife even wants to be with him instead of hubby.

The second situation is sort of the ethical equivalent of what they are advocating for. If you take Mr. Karzai's fake jirga speech that is exactly what it boils down to.


The Amir has actually been very clear and honest in this way. He has not let his personal views of what he thinks is the best way to live be mixed into what he thinks is the best policy for the whole Muslim world, delivered by American force.

The other atheists have, on the other hand, despite admitting that they are the minority, tried to utilize these discussions to justify foreign intervention... or to link fervent Islam with Pakistani-ism or Arabism.

Thats why the discussion will never end Alchemist Brother. They cannot call a truce because their goals are to justify foreign interventionalism and force via maligning Islam or claiming that its some virulent strain of Islam that is responsible for all the world's ills. They have to keep this argument alive in order to justify the drone war and sustained intervention on the part of Western powers.

The deeper ethical dilemma is that they are not fighting this war of imposition their selves. They are taking some white guy from Podunk Kansas named Bill and making him kill Random Ahmad from the hills in Afghanistan, chasing windmills of nonexistent Islamic extremism that they are saying threaten's Britain and America's very shores. They are basically trying to force the world into perpetual war in order to implement their vision onto people.

In fact Soldat has this again and again.. he has said "our people need to be forced..."

Well, if he believes that this is justified... i.e. forcing people... then he has to realize that even the 9/11 commission report detailed blowback and what it is. He ough to read up on it.

Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 12-16-2011 at 12:05 AM.
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Default 12-16-2011, 01:03 AM

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Originally Posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post

The Amir has actually been very clear and honest in this way. He has not let his personal views of what he thinks is the best way to live be mixed into what he thinks is the best policy for the whole Muslim world, delivered by American force.

.
i may be a non believer, but i aint no sell out biiitch
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Default 12-16-2011, 02:30 AM

A thread of peace !
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Default 12-16-2011, 03:11 AM

I offered a truce some time ago and I was given the boot and told "No mercy on the devil" even when I stated I respect Islam and do not consider every Muslim as the same I was then told to basically go away because I was trying to cause Fitna amongst the Musulman of Pashtunforums.

Its not us the agnostics who have a problem, its the constant members with social problems who keep bringing this religionous issue up i.e unknownprince and co, i reported this some time ago, nobody was discussing religionous issues until the Religion thread was suddenly packed full of threads in relation to the whole asthist and faithful question.

Pashtuns who do not follow Islam have existed, Afghanistan was full of them during the 70's and they had to be some of the most educated, well versed and progressive minded people, its because some of you live in the West, your born defensive of your faith, and your parents have segregated you from the rest of society, spoonfed you all kinds of stories that inspires paranoia and hate towards other people, So I understand your positions.

I never left Islam because I though hey the West is so good, even the West has its bad qualities, it was the very same Muslims who lead me away from Islam through their actions and absolutely zero tolerance of debating rationally, plus the whole Talibanisation too, really put me off when i saw it with my own eyes the way they treat people.

Anyway that aside

I accept this truce, but hopefully Alchemist can you keep an eye on those threads that are purposely put up to stir?

Deera Manana
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Default 12-16-2011, 03:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Amir al Ghaznavi View Post
i may be a non believer, but i aint no sell out biiitch
Amir

this is one of the main reasons why I dont consider myself as a Muslim anymore, its this blatant blindness and constant blaiming of others of their own problems.

BarakzaiAbdali blames the Americans for everything but ignores the social problems, the sectarian problems and the awy the Muslims loved American help during the Soviet war when they destroyed and brought a country to its knees for America and Pakistan.

I have been pushed away from Islam to this attitude and the constant blame game as if Muslims have been so peaceful and innocent.

There is no equality when you deal with them, its always the Jews and the Christians who cause all the problems, ignore the way Muslims are treated by other Muslims etc etc

thats my last comment on this thread
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Default 12-16-2011, 03:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Soldat_Amir View Post
Amir

this is one of the main reasons why I dont consider myself as a Muslim anymore, its this blatant blindness and constant blaiming of others of their own problems.

BarakzaiAbdali blames the Americans for everything but ignores the social problems, the sectarian problems and the awy the Muslims loved American help during the Soviet war when they destroyed and brought a country to its knees for America and Pakistan.

I have been pushed away from Islam to this attitude and the constant blame game as if Muslims have been so peaceful and innocent.

There is no equality when you deal with them, its always the Jews and the Christians who cause all the problems, ignore the way Muslims are treated by other Muslims etc etc

thats my last comment on this thread
Once again you are historically wrong and taking me out of context. You also stand in a completely different position than Ghaznavi. Lets make that crystal clear. Your position, in opposition to Ghaznavi... is that some evil form of Islam came out of nowhere and that Pashtuns were living the good high life like Brad and Angelina... smoking cigs together and going on dates... Islam was just some "spiritual thing." Ghaznavi, since he is educated is saying: No, this is an almost immune reaction time mechanism of Pashtuns responding to invaders trying to hoist a foreign system onto them.

Within their own lands and in regard to development of their resources and their many internal rivalries, Muslims are 100% responsible for the state they are in. The decay of society in the Muslim world internally, is their responsibility. The phenomenal levels of corruption is their albatross to wear around their neck.

However, let us redirect. Its merely that you attempt to use the canard of: Lets focus on Muslim pedophiles and lets focus on Muslim flower theifs and lets focus on Muslim elephant poatches not because you want to high light problems endemic to the Muslim world... but because you are trying hard to say to the viewer: See this? See what I am showing you? This justifies Karzai and NATO killing these people.

Its a simple minded and rather uninformed analysis of a complex issue. It ignores what truly motivates the fighters to fight (which, undoubtely is American support for tyrannical regimes per their own words).

In regard to "loving" America and whether those that fought the Russians "loved" Jews and Christians or not... you are incorrect. Abdullah Azzam and his acolytes actually were problematic for the CIA in that they openly stated they viewed America as the second enemy status post Russia. Watch Yosri Fouda interview the Central Intelligence Agency spokesmen in their prior effort to outreach to even the likes OBL. They openly admit they tried to recruit some of these die hards and that they opened files on these people solely because they were rebuffed. That is historical fact Soldat.


Moreover, its perfectly valid to ignore the way Muslims treat other Muslims because, the central premise here is that it has NOTHING to do with how Christians should treat Muslims.

If a Muslim shoots another Muslim, how, for instance, does that legitimize American or Soviet intervention overtly (war) or covertly (Najib and then Karzai)?

Once again, this is just you saying: Hey guys focus on the fact that a guy named Foad killed a guy nameed Habib.... so that means its fine for Prince Harry to come and occupy their land and create havoc.

No the answer is not that Harry is justified in occupation... its that he has no role whatsoever in what Habib and Foad do to eachother.

But you continuously show that you are a parasite on British society because you want them to deal with Mullah Omar for you. You refuse to strap on an AK and go fight your own battles.

Moreover, if one wants to talk about blame games... lets talk about how the communists like you blame Pakistan and Brzenzski for the creation of all evil in the world. Where is the personal responsibility for the death and havoc Parcham and Khalq wreaked with their land and social reforms that triggered tribal rebellion?
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Default 12-16-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist View Post

Let's go back to that...and leave this discussion for the Afterlife. I don't see a reason why atheists or muslim should have a problem with this proposal.

You don't see a reason anyone would have a problem with that? That's because you absolutely have no idea what it means to be atheist.


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"There was so much to grok, so little to grok from. "

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"

أنا آسف ، أنا لا أقرأ أو لا يتكلم اللغة العربية. وسوف تبذل جهدا لترجمة مع ترجمة جوجل. يرجى أن يكون فهم من هذا الحاجز.
(I'm sorry, I do not read or speak Arabic. I will make an effort to translate with Google translate. Please be understanding of this barrier.)
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Default 12-16-2011, 09:05 AM

Let's have a truce brothers.

I gather from everyones input that there are some conditions for this truce to hold?

We do have common ground here - we are here because we care for the future of Afghanistan, specifically for pashtuns, and therefore for half of Pakistan at least. This should be enough for anyone to participate in this forum in a meaningful way - regardless of their background.

Let's agree that the taliban are not Heaven sent, Mullah Omar is not an infalliable saint and that our culture is not totally Islamic...not even our attitude is. The Messenger of God had rocks pelted at him, garbage and even the entrails of animals thrown at him, his family killed and dismembered, starved and tortured...but did he ever say "Oh I hate those kafirs. I will get revenge on them." Did he avenge anyone? Was he on a mission to hunt down atheists and debate with them? Peace and blessings on him, and all those who follow him. Even the atheists know that our approach is contradictory to teachings of the Holy prophet (pbuh) when we ceaselessly vilify them and brand them hopeless and doomed to hell. Let Allah decide that...you never know what will happen to who.


Bottom line - I don't think Soldat or Levenay explicitly mean to say that the occupation of Afghanistan is morally justified. I think their position is more against the taliban...which is something they have developed from their own experiences from the region. We have to be open minded here and think critically to some of the issues they raised - is it true that the taliban's take over of Swat left a bad taste in the local's mouth? Half the population (or slightly more than half) are women, are taliban interpreting sharia extremely? Did they adopt the hypocrisy of the Gulf States in the way they allow and even facilitate for the indulgence of their own men and suppress the basic rights of women?

So in order for this truce to work we have to reconsider our positions as simply being: Taliban vs West.
Rather there is an insurgency that fights an occupational force. Let's agree to this and carry on from thence.


Thank you all for considering this humble proposal.

(There will always be trolls who will try do dumb down the quality of this forum by posting provocative videos and articles to instigate some drama for their own amusement. Just put a sign that says - don't feed the troll on those threads)
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Default 12-16-2011, 10:14 AM

There shall be never truce and peace,
until they and their allies we destroy to debris.
between the followers of shaytan,
and the people of islam.
we will awaite them on the back of our horses with our swords
and their is one lord no lords.

Allahu Akbar Allahu Akbar


High achievement always takes place in the framework of high expectation.
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