View Full Version : Islam and nationalism


شمله ور خراساني
04-23-2010, 11:05 AM
As salaamu aleikoum,

The concept nationality, nationalism and pride are alien to Islam. Muslims who love their ethnicity or nationality oppose unity of muslims.

The existence of political borders dividing muslims into different countries is one of our main problems.

For as long as these imposed borders exist, america, europe, china, russia and others will continue to subdue muslims and prevent us from progress.

pir_Rokhan
04-23-2010, 11:28 AM
As salaamu aleikoum,

The concept nationality, nationalism and pride are alien to Islam. Muslims who love their ethnicity or nationality oppose unity of muslims.

The existence of political borders dividing muslims into different countries is one of our main problems.

For as long as these imposed borders exist, america, europe, china, russia and others will continue to subdue muslims and prevent us from progress.

It depends upon what you call nationality, nationalism and what you call Islam. In my opinion nationality or nationalism has nothing to do with Islam. Infact it is Islam which is alien to Nationality or nationalism. It was meant for Arabs and is still mainly owned by Arabs. It does not suit the requirements of non Arabs and neither has it any relevance in the modern age.

Unity of Muslims is a utopian idea. It was never there and neither will it ever come into existence in future. It is just a dream which the Arab world has given to non Arabs to keep their historic imperialist supremacy based on religion and race.

Political borders are based on regional interests and based on territorial nationalism which is the uniting and binding force in the modern age.USA,China , Russia etc has nothing to do with Muslims.It is the national interests of a nation or a country which determines the nature of the international relations in the modern world.The example is that USA is a friend of the fundamentalist Saudi Arabia which is a predominantly muslims country while it an enemy of Cuba and China which are socialist countries.If it was religion USA would be the enemy of all muslims states and the worst enemy if Saudi Arabia which is the cradle of the Arab ideology.Similarly China is an enemy of India which is a non muslim country while a friend of Pakistan which is a muslim country.So many examples can be quoted.

On the contrary let me predict something shocking to you.Infact the Power elite of US which consists of think tanks like ZBEGNIEW BREZNSKI will try to befriend Muslim world tp use ot agaisnt China.The same guinnie pigs in the form of Afghans were used agaisnt Russia while most probably those of Pakistan or India will be used agaisnt China.

Read Webster Tarpley's book the "Unauthorised biogrpahy of Barrak H. Obama" to know more about what is going on and what has already happenend.

Badlun
04-23-2010, 12:35 PM
What else I can say after reading Pir on the topic. He has covered every aspect of the issue in a succint way. Some times you feel that this is waht I wrote not the writer. Its so similar to your thoughts and feelings. May be if I did not see the post of Pir I would write the same thing as he wrote may be with different words.

This Muslim Umma, Muslim unity, Muslim khilafah, is all absurd concepts and tools of Arab imperiialism. The worst who suffer from this evil design nowa days are the pitiable Pashtuns who are more active than arabs in defending Arab culture and Arab way of life in the garb of Islam.

Religion is just your private matter and its your beliefs, worship and morality. If you are convinced that the religion preached by the Arab prophet Muhammad is better than the one introduced by the Indian Budha, or the Galilean Jew Jesus of Nazareth , or the Hebrew Moses etc then you must be a Muslim in your beliefs, worship and personal ethics but you cant impose this religion in other spheres of life as politics, education, culture, economy etc.

Unity of Muslims on political lines as one Umma is the result of this misconception that islam is also part of politics. If you give Islam its due status as religion then all this struggle for the establishment of Islamic Khilafah , and this menace of terrorism as a tool for establishing islamic state will automatically cease.

Levanaye Zalmaye
04-23-2010, 12:58 PM
It depends upon what you call nationality, nationalism and what you call Islam. In my opinion nationality or nationalism has nothing to do with Islam. Infact it is Islam which is alien to Nationality or nationalism. It was meant for Arabs and is still mainly owned by Arabs. It does not suit the requirements of non Arabs and neither has it any relevance in the modern age.

Unity of Muslims is a utopian idea. It was never there and neither will it ever come into existence in future. It is just a dream which the Arab world has given to non Arabs to keep their historic imperialist supremacy based on religion and race.

Political borders are based on regional interests and based on territorial nationalism which is the uniting and binding force in the modern age.USA,China , Russia etc has nothing to do with Muslims.It is the national interests of a nation or a country which determines the nature of the international relations in the modern world.The example is that USA is a friend of the fundamentalist Saudi Arabia which is a predominantly muslims country while it an enemy of Cuba and China which are socialist countries.If it was religion USA would be the enemy of all muslims states and the worst enemy if Saudi Arabia which is the cradle of the Arab ideology.Similarly China is an enemy of India which is a non muslim country while a friend of Pakistan which is a muslim country.So many examples can be quoted.

^ Pir_Rokhan, sta post dumra rikhtia de che pa ttol forum che da de pa shaan rikhtia post neshta.



In Islam, nationalism is not allowed. We are all Muslims and part of the Muslim ummah.

Bia mung dalta pa "Pashto" forums bande sa kawu?


As salaamu aleikoum,

The concept nationality, nationalism and pride are alien to Islam. Muslims who love their ethnicity or nationality oppose unity of muslims.

The existence of political borders dividing muslims into different countries is one of our main problems.

For as long as these imposed borders exist, america, europe, china, russia and others will continue to subdue muslims and prevent us from progress.


.... Zaka kho zmung jahil khalq ta da Islaam num bande bewakuf jorrawul dumra asaan de.

pir_Rokhan
04-23-2010, 01:05 PM
In Islam, nationalism is not allowed. We are all Muslims and part of the Muslim ummah.

As I said, before giving a juristic verdict define your terms.This has been the major point of linguistic philosophers like Witgensien,that most of the mis understanding is due to either vague words of vague use of words.

Islam and Nationalism ar enot mutually exclusive.If you want me to give refereces directly from the Quran and Sunnah so I can or if you want to discuss it from political science point of view even then we can discuss it.Similarly we can argue it philosophically too in case you are keen.

pir_Rokhan
04-23-2010, 01:14 PM
LZ,

I think what Islam is trying to say is, Nationalism ends up making you a bit racist.

There are 3 types of nationalism.Racial,linguistic and territorial.Unless otherwise stated nationalism means territorial nationalism.

The racist version is only there in Israel which coincides with their religion too.

There is nothing wrong in linguistic and territorial ones.They are the bases of modern statecraft.

pir_Rokhan
04-23-2010, 11:50 PM
I believe in being nationalism to your ethnic group.

Are you talking in spranto?

MazloomyarMaseed
04-27-2010, 11:14 AM
But one can say that Islam is Arab Nationalism, as everything is related to customs and the language of Arabic. If you can not be proud of your Pushto or you being Pashtun but God has told you must speak Arabic to be in Heaven as everybody in heaven will speak Arabic, then the logical mind will start asking questions wouldnt it?

Islam and other faiths should be a persons own business, a personel thing, somebody that should not be made exclusive to the whole world as if you some kind of saint or holy man.

Nationalism is the key to make Pashtuns survive, Nationalism is not as bad as Relgionous infighting, whereby a Sunni has the nerve to throw granades into the mosque packed full of Shia's in Dera Ismail Khan, or when such holy men preach hatred towards others especially relgionous minorities.

Roshina
04-29-2010, 06:19 PM
There's NOTHING in Islam that says nationalism is haraam. I think we're confusing "nationalism" with "racism," yes? Yes. In that case, RACISM is rotten, indeed; but nationalism and patriotism? I don't see how. If we were saying, "We're better than every other race on earth, and everyone else is below us -- therefore, we need to be under ONE nation so we can enjoy our being better than everyone else!" then, yeah, okay, I can understand why that'd be "forbidden," but the reasons we're giving have nothing to do with superiority.

Certainly, any Pashtun who sees her/himself above other ethnicities or races or peoples, I agree they're being ridiculous. But nationalism? Favoring my country, MY people, MY land to others is haraam? Don't you dare. Let's be realistic, for God's sake: We need to first unite with the people AROUND us before we can even TRY to unite with the over a billion Muslims worldwide.

So, if we really believe it's haraam, we'd first need to define nationalism -- and Islam, lol. When the Prophet said that no Arab is better than a non-Arab, etc., he didn't mean you can't stand against an oppressive government that's killing your people.

Anyway, here's my response (pasting from another source 'cause, DUH, some Pashtuns are actually fooled into believing that nationalism is haraam *in the name of Islam*. Sad.). Because the post the anti-nationalism dude presented had some arguments that I try to address in my response, so if you don't know what I'm talking about at times, don't worry.

What, you actually want every single Muslim on the face of the earth to unite under ONE nation, ONE flag? :S Just because that'll mean Muslims are united? :|

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the claim that nationalism is haraam in Islam. This is how so many Muslims will use Islam just to support their own conclusions that satisfy them; otherwise, many Muslims will rarely follow Islam at all.First, you'd have to understand *why* a group of people wants to be united as that ethnic group; Pakhtuns, for instance, have a thousand and three reasons to do so, and we know it'll be more beneficial to us in the long run -- we'll be secure and in peace, ka khaire. Why should any religion have a problem with that?

Second, can't Muslims STILL be united while many different groups living in different nations? Can't we continue having ties with other Muslims -- even Punjabis and other ethnic groups surrounding Pukhtuns -- while having our own independent nation? Can't we continue being brothers "in Islam" and respecting each others' rights (oh, wait, we Pukhtuns HAVE no rights currently to begin with!)?

I think it's just so impractical of Muslims to constantly scream in our faces that nationalism is haraam or un-Islamic or unwelcome in Islam. We're not indicating that we're better than non-Pukhtuns (and Pukhtuns don't believe this in the first place at all, actually), so I can't figure out what the problem with nationalism is. What's wrong with keeping your race as pure as possible and your people as united as possible? And how the heck are we supposed to unite with the WHOLE of Muslim world when we ourselves lack unity? :S

I think the arguments presented against nationalism are too weak. What do the disputants, and those Muslims agree with them, expect the oppressed people of the earth to do -- remain with their oppressive nation NO MATTER what just because they're at least being governed by a group of people who CLAIM to be "Islamic"? :| Because somehow, someday, justice will prevail, without their having to make any practical attempts to help themselves? Well, you see, God ain't gonna help a people unless they stand up for themselves and prove themselves worthy of His help. So if we want justice and peace in our Pukhtun lands, and we've recognized the fact that the ultimate solution to our current problems is to unite under ONE nation as Pukhtuns -- all, those in Afghanistan and those in Pakistan -- then we should go for it. Why should ANY religion, ANY God have any problem with this?

One more thing: If you believe it's about unity, then ... Please define the term "unity" for me; I've been asking someone to do it for so long, preferably someone who believes that nationalism is bad/haraam in Islam. What's your understanding of unity in the first place? Shouldn't we be more focused on, like, Muslims helping other Muslims in times of need? You know, just like we Pukhtuns are suffering in our lands, have been suffering for decades now and will certainly continue to suffer until justice is *somehow* brought to us, and NO Muslims have stood up for us? Shouldn't Muslims help other oppressed Muslims, help them fight for justice and peace in their lands, help fight their oppressors, and so on -- on the basis of unity, under the name of Muslim unity? Isn't that what unity should REALLY mean and be focusing on?

Or is it just "we shouldn't separate from our (so-called) Muslim nations! We are Muslims, and we should be united! Nationalism is forbidden in Islam, so let's not be nationalist and be up for our ethnicity but only stand up for our religious beliefs!"
Hmm, I wonder.

Well, sorry, but to each his own. We are Pukhtuns before we're anything else, and we remain Muslims, so I still can't see the problem with our nationalism no matter how hard I think about this.

imb706
04-29-2010, 06:31 PM
Nationalism is insane though. Who'd embrace it?

MazloomyarMaseed
04-29-2010, 06:35 PM
Nationalism is insane though. Who'd embrace it?


Well your Zionist friends embrace it very well. Once Pashtuns embrace it when we will be united in the Millions to kick you out of our motherland Afghanistan, and then we can work together to build it up from the start and progress forward from the rubble thats became our home

Khor may rag shavai dai, biya ha mu watan pa mu grun dai!

imb706
04-29-2010, 06:40 PM
The only jew I know is this liberal jew from New York XD. With my luck, I'll end up marrying a Zionist though.

MazloomyarMaseed
04-29-2010, 06:42 PM
The only jew I know is this liberal jew from New York XD. With my luck, I'll end up marrying a Zionist though.


Sadly, Iam already married but i would have loved to Marry a Holocaust denier. I find them very brave and factual.

imb706
04-29-2010, 06:44 PM
XD. Israelis are hawt.

MazloomyarMaseed
04-29-2010, 06:48 PM
XD. Israelis are hawt.


well you can find a nice choice there as most of them are cense pool of mongrels following a fashion trend of deciving the world of its true identity being gog turkish mixed with slavics and not actually jewish.

To be honest,i actually prefer the orthodox jews because atleast they try hard to be real jews eh.

imb706
04-29-2010, 06:56 PM
Lol racism. "Mongrels" Mmm, more the better. Mix white israelis with japanese people and that'd be awesome.

MazloomyarMaseed
04-29-2010, 07:02 PM
Lol racism. "Mongrels" Mmm, more the better. Mix white israelis with japanese people and that'd be awesome.


Hows about mustard gas???

one day 2 million died, then four million died then now its officially 6 million, Japanese killed nearly over 10 million chinese, the Yankees killed way more red indians, etc etc etc...I will love the day when they have no where else to run too besides change their faith and pose as christians as usual.

inqilab
04-29-2010, 09:09 PM
Sahih almuslim - Allahs Messenger [s] said:
"And whosoever fights under a blind banner, gets angry along with his group of people, or calls to a group of people, or supports a group of people, and is subsequently killed because of that, then this killing is a sinful killing."

inqilab
04-29-2010, 09:13 PM
Sunan abu dawud- Allahs Messenger [s] said:
"He is not of us if he calls to asabiyyah, and he is not one of us if he fights for the sake of asabiyyah, and not one of us if he dies on asabiyyah."

Sunan abu dawud:

"Whosoever supports his group of people not on the truth, he is like a camel that fell from a high peak into a deep valley where it only could move its tail."

Sunan abu dawud:
"Allah took away the asabiyyah of jahiliyyah from you, and your boasting about your fathers. So, man is either a righteous believer or a corrupted non-believer. You are the children of Adam, and Adam is from dirt; let men quit their boasting of their own people, they are nothing but coal from the coal of Hell or they will be more humiliated in the sight of Allah more than the dung beetle that pushes dung with its nose."

inqilab
04-29-2010, 09:17 PM
Asabiyyah literally means tribalism. This can be used for any form of loyalty to a specific group or country. And fighting in its name.

abubaker
04-30-2010, 12:28 AM
Lol racism. "Mongrels" Mmm, more the better. Mix white israelis with japanese people and that'd be awesome.


jew married to a japanese, thats not gona happen

abubaker
04-30-2010, 12:36 AM
narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said, "He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah."

and in the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messeng
er of Allah (saaw) said, "He who calls for `Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father's genitals"

nationalism has nothing to do with islam and is forbiden, its a concept from the time of ''jahiliah'' and to make it lawfull is nothing less then going against the authoroties of Allah subhana hu watalah

mullha when i was typing your post wasnt there, fast typer

abubaker
04-30-2010, 12:46 AM
its amazing how people make up bull**** about our great relegion with thout having a clue as to what islam actually has to say about that perticular issue

abubaker
04-30-2010, 01:22 AM
cheeky litle one arnt you

abubaker
04-30-2010, 01:40 AM
fortunately there are more qualified people then me, best thing to do is read some books, and study at your local masjid

i can pm you the names of some books if you wish

Azmatullah
04-30-2010, 04:32 PM
It is narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,

"He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah."

And in another Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) referring to nationalism, racism, and patriotism said:

"Leave it, it is rotten." [Muslim and Bukhari]

Also, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,

"Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung)." [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]

Source: http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm (http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm)

MazloomyarMaseed
04-30-2010, 04:37 PM
It is narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,

"He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah."

And in another Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) referring to nationalism, racism, and patriotism said:

"Leave it, it is rotten." [Muslim and Bukhari]

Also, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said,

"Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a coal from the coals of Hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung)." [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]

Source: http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm (http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm)


Then go and die for Arabs and sell out your identity.Most pashtuns are not even interested anymore to what you people have to say.

You just dont get it do you???? PASHTUNS ARE NOT UNITED! and you want to poison their minds with all this Arab Hadiths that were written 200 years after the death of the prophet.

You praise Arab figures and call Pashtun figures as alcoholics etc.

When will you learn. I bet most of you live in the West and enjoy Non Muslim Secular laws for which you abuse to spread your nonsense.

Does it say in Quran that Nationalism is wrong?

Anybody can write its wrong at the time, especially when they wanted to avoid rebellion from the new cultures and races of people they conquered.

I hope Europe kicks out every Arab back to the craphole they belong.

You should visit UK and see all your Arab friends living on benefits and then preaching for Shariat on weeekends

Azmatullah
04-30-2010, 04:59 PM
Yes, dividing the Ummah is forbidden in the Qur'an, if you ever read it you should know that already. But you too busy running your filthy mouth all the time, so i can see why you would be pre-occupied.

http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm (http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm)

Pashtoons are not united, and why do you think? You reject Islam and mock the words of Allah (swt) and prefer to follow the likes of Charles Darwin... then you wonder why Pashtoons are not united. Can you get anymore pathetic?

Anyways, just wanted to say that, i usually ignore imbeciles. You're free to continue your yapping now.

MazloomyarMaseed
04-30-2010, 09:15 PM
Yes, dividing the Ummah is forbidden in the Qur'an, if you ever read it you should know that already. But you too busy running your filthy mouth all the time, so i can see why you would be pre-occupied.

http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm (http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm)

Pashtoons are not united, and why do you think? You reject Islam and mock the words of Allah (swt) and prefer to follow the likes of Charles Darwin... then you wonder why Pashtoons are not united. Can you get anymore pathetic?

Anyways, just wanted to say that, i usually ignore imbeciles. You're free to continue your yapping now.


I prefer to follow Pashtunwali

Also it was your fellow arabs who destroyed the Ummah, you heard of the ottomon Khalifate??????

Roshina
04-30-2010, 10:43 PM
But you too busy running your filthy mouth all the time, so i can see why you would be pre-occupied.

Umm, first of all, bro, watch your mouth. You can't possibly have said that to me, of course, but whoever you said it to, I'm sure MUCH better things come out of their mouth than does from yours.

Second, Yes, dividing the Ummah is forbidden in the Qur'an, if you ever read it you should know that already.
The Quran says to hold fast to the rope of God and not disunite (3:103). What does "disunite" (or "separate" in other translations) mean to you? To me, it means killing each other, fighting against each other, supporting injustice standing up with the enemies of a just people just because you don't like your own people, and so on. More like what Sunnis do to Shiites around the Muslim world and what Shiites do to minorities in Iran. THAT, my dear brother, is what disunity mean to me.

Being united doesn't mean get one country and live under it. Gosh, that's rather naive and silly--not to mention, totally impractical-- don't you think? We need to first better our individual selves, then our homes, then our communities, then our villages/cities, then our countries, and THEN the world. One step at a time. That's how we can achieve peace and unity for the Muslim world. Unity also means helping your oppressed Muslim brothers and sisters all over the world. Pashtuns are currently oppressed, by the PK government; what have you or any other Muslim brother of yours done about it? ... Oh wait, perhaps some of us believe we DESERVE this oppression for supporting nationalism :|

Holding on fast to the rope of God should NOT mean, "Don't fight for independence from an oppressive Muslim regime (like Pakistan) that's refusing you your language, culture, claim to your own identity, and every other just move you as a people can make."

Third,
http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm (http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm)
Why should I care what these people have to say? What do they expect -- the over ONE billion Muslims to unite under ONE flag? :S Meaning, get ONE country and live under it? What kind of sense is that supposed to make to me, bro? They use the same verse I use for encouraging Muslims to be just to each other AND to others AND to stop killing each other. We (Pashtuns) haven't killed anyone -- okay, the Taliban are mostly Pashtuns, but the Pakistani army and government isn't any better, either, and has NO right to deny us our independence or right to practice our culture.

So, yeah, tell me again why I should trust the particular source you've given me when I can read the Quran for myself and take a positive meaning of it that does NOT include "nationalism is haraam."

You still haven't given a good enough reason for why nationalism is haraam. Keep trying, 'cause we're not convinced so far (that is, provided you want to convince us that it's haraam).

Pashtoons are not united, and why do you think? You reject Islam and mock the words of Allah (swt) and prefer to follow the likes of Charles Darwin... then you wonder why Pashtoons are not united. Can you get anymore pathetic?

Oh dear God, lol. :) How innocent of you. It's not about rejecting and mocking -- oh wait, we havne't mocked anyone. We're simplying saying nationalism isn't haraam. Try to prove us wrong, and we'll listen with an open heart, mind, and eye. But you, too, should listen to our views as well.

Manana.

tor_khan
05-01-2010, 02:54 AM
Baacha Khan is the exemplar here ... a pious Muslim (Hajj several times) and deeply committed to unity and the Nationalist cause through peace and social improvement.

pir_Rokhan
05-01-2010, 03:41 AM
Nationalism is insane though. Who'd embrace it?

And would you care to elaborate your verdict?

pir_Rokhan
05-01-2010, 03:58 AM
Sahih almuslim - Allahs Messenger [s] said:
"And whosoever fights under a blind banner, gets angry along with his group of people, or calls to a group of people, or supports a group of people, and is subsequently killed because of that, then this killing is a sinful killing."

This is proving something from your own resources. Do you have any rational argument?

Do you want me to hurt your weak faith by something which is in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim [considered more important for the Salafis than Quran in most cases if not all] ? Do not get pissed off then.

The prophet when he realised that it is difficult to run a city state based on the principles of equality and other altrusitic ideals [which he was preaching all his life] said in his last days:

"AL AIMATUL MINAL QURAISH".
[Translation: The leadership will remain with Quraish [which was his tribe].

The first political struggle after Muhammad was on this basis.The medinites were also claiming leadership role based on merit [their services ] when Abu baker narrated the above cited saying of the prophet of Muslims.

This was a major issue after the death of Muhammad in all subsequent govts, not only in the later Muslims but the closest companions of Muhammad like Abu Baker and Ali. Then in Ali's time even the wife of Muhammad had to rise against Ali in the battle of Camel.

The whole Arab history which is also termed as Islamic history to rationalise the supremacy of Arabs over the rest of the world,is full of such fights and fueds. Any imapartial book on so called Islamic history will tell you the stories of Arab imperialism in the name of Islam.

This Hadith along with a couple of others are the basis of Cultist version as well as institutionalised Brahmanism in Islam which infact was used for Arab imperialism but claimed to be for the whole humanity despite having failed even for the peninsula within first 50 years.

Pakhtuns have suffered a lot due to these fanatics.Give us a break please.This is the age of science and technology.With the very first law of law of conservation of of mass /energy,the very basis of the notions of "Ahlul Sunnah wal Jumaaaaa" is gone with the wind.If anyone is skeptic , I will make an endevour to give a small blow to the edifice of misconceptions traditionally called "Aqaaaaaiid".

pir_Rokhan
05-01-2010, 04:35 AM
Asabiyyah literally means tribalism. This can be used for any form of loyalty to a specific group or country. And fighting in its name.

We are talking about the modern concept of Nationalism.Tribalism is not Nationalism.If you dont know what you are talking about then first try to understand what is being argued.

Asabiyah is standing with your kith and kin even if they are wrong [by you which you can prove and they cant refute it]. Nationalism is just a struggle for the socio-political rights in a certain territory [all modern nation states] or for a certain linguistic group [like MQM for Urdu speaking people or Jai Sindh for Sindhis] or for a race like Musa fought for Bani Israil only.

You have a certain conception [or misconception] and assume that it is equivalent to the concept being debated.

For reference read, Almawardi's "Al Ahkamul Sultaniaya" in which he has xplained the "Islamic" theory of Imamate/Caliphate/and Ibne Khaldoon's Prolegomena to the history of Barbars in which he has explained the theory to Asabiya.

pir_Rokhan
05-01-2010, 04:46 AM
its amazing how people make up bull**** about our great relegion with thout having a clue as to what islam actually has to say about that perticular issue

So if you quote the secondary sources from your religion and explain them with your limited understanding and fallacious comprehension it is ISLAM and if someone else tries to liberate your mind from the clutches of Arab imperialism then you call it BS.

"Ma lakum kaifa tahkumoon"

MazloomyarMaseed
05-01-2010, 05:03 AM
So if you quote the secondary sources from your religion and explain them with your limited understanding and fallacious comprehension it is ISLAM and if someone else tries to liberate your mind from the clutches of Arab imperialism then you call it BS.

"Ma lakum kaifa tahkumoon"


Can i be your student Pir rokhan Saab?

I wish i was as bright and intelligent as you

pir_Rokhan
05-01-2010, 05:07 AM
Yes, dividing the Ummah is forbidden in the Qur'an, if you ever read it you should know that already. But you too busy running your filthy mouth all the time, so i can see why you would be pre-occupied.

http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm (http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm)

Pashtoons are not united, and why do you think? You reject Islam and mock the words of Allah (swt) and prefer to follow the likes of Charles Darwin... then you wonder why Pashtoons are not united. Can you get anymore pathetic?

Anyways, just wanted to say that, i usually ignore imbeciles. You're free to continue your yapping now.

Azmatullah mian sb

There is and there was no such thing as Ummah.These are all fantasies.Get out of books written by Arabs or their intellectual slaves. Get into the real world.This was a concept to intellectulise the Arab supremacy and it is no more there.Go to your sacred land and see it and feel it for yourself.

The nations who were conquered by Arabs were never united. Leave alone different nations even various tribes within the same nation [Arabs] there was no unity. Read the antagonism between the Ummayads and Abassids in history.

Neither Pashtuns nor any other nation can ever unite with the help of Islam.Only concrete and empirical facts which can be proved can unite the whole humanity.If you think abstract and metaphysical concepts like ontology,existence,Extra sensory perceptions ,Transcendentalsim etc [which are the philosophic interpretations of your "imaniyat-e- talatha"] can unite Pashtuns ,it is day dreaming.

We [Pashtuns] just need to get united for our political rights and freedom. The rest is everybody's personal choice.The only thing needed is a secular appraoch in which every one should have the right to believe in whatever one wills without imposing one's concepts on others and respect other's points of views.

imb706
05-01-2010, 07:27 PM
jew married to a japanese, thats not gona happen You've certainly never heard of Japanese Jews XD... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Jews mustard gas I have no idea what a poisonous gas has to do with two ethnicities mixing.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-01-2010, 07:29 PM
You've certainly never heard of Japanese Jews XD... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Jews I have no idea what a poisonous gas has to do with two ethnicities mixing.


This is what i mean...How can there be a Japanese Jew, the lost tribes didnt migrate there, this is usual American and Khazar Gentiles, insult the name of real jews. they will allow anybody to be jewish when their blood is truely of a gentile

imb706
05-02-2010, 04:51 AM
This is what i mean...How can there be a Japanese Jew, the lost tribes didnt migrate there the lost tribes didnt migrate there, this is usual American and Khazar Gentiles, insult the name of real jews. they will allow anybody to be jewish when their blood is truely of a gentile See? It just can't register in your bigoted mind. You seem like some Klan member. You probably didn't even read the article, because in your mind, jew only registers as some weird mix between Satan, Captain Hook and Scrooge McDuck.gl

abubaker
05-02-2010, 05:02 AM
So if you quote the secondary sources from your religion and explain them with your limited understanding and fallacious comprehension it is ISLAM and if someone else tries to liberate your mind from the clutches of Arab imperialism then you call it BS.

"Ma lakum kaifa tahkumoon"


saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

MazloomyarMaseed
05-02-2010, 05:18 AM
saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr


Yes but you are not reading fully,there are different forms of Nationalism, but we have witnesssed Arab Nationalism in the form of Salafism.Wahabism, whereby your own culture is rejected and replaced with desert bedion Arab cultures.

There are many hadiths, and Hadiths were written 200 years after the death of the Prophet,i find it extremely arrogant and typicla of most muslims who refuse to debate hadiths.

Nationalism is what Pashtuns need not some Arab desert camel jockey to tell him/her how they shud live their lives.

Palestinians also follow Nationalism, and i bet you support their cause.

Hipocrites

inqilab
05-02-2010, 05:10 PM
I just saw what pir rokhan lol So we can confirm that he is a kafir. People like him bring dishonor and shame to pashtuns. We should hide our faces from such people.

Anyways i will give you a quick reply and then later on show you how big of a bonehead you really are. And not as intelligent as you pretend to be.

First. The quraishi condition is not mandatory. There is a major difference between saying imamah should be quraishi then imamah being only valid within quraish.

This is clear from other ahadith which i will show you later. As long as the person is implementing shariah (hadith narrated by muawiya [r] collected in sahih albukhari). The obligation of obedience remains. Even if the person is not quraishi. (Allahs Messengers [s] final sermon).This will be seen later.

Can you grip this basic difference pir saab?


Second. Even if it was mandatory. This does not promote any form of tribalism mr smartypants. Ruling by shariah is what makes the imamah valid. He is not ruling by his tribal laws nor promoting his clan like the jahil pashtunwali codes. His mission is only islamic.

And nationalism and tribalism are very similar. They share the same form of loyalty. Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. So please do not try to define it with your own crooked mind.

Ibn khaldun used it in a lingustic term. Not in a islamic sense. General usage can be social solidarity. But islam has its own definition. And it is far better and superior. What it condemns is thinking superior of oneself from others due to to your family, tribe or country. This is sheer stupidity. As Allah created us to worship him. He created us in different nations, tribes, languages and colors. All so we can know one another. But the best of us is in piety and good conduct.

inqilab
05-02-2010, 05:11 PM
And ahadith were not written 200 yrs after Allahs Messenger [s]. Some of the sahabah [r] had their own ahadith collections.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-02-2010, 05:14 PM
I just saw what pir rokhan lol So we can confirm that he is a kafir. People like him bring dishonor and shame to us. We should hide our faces from such people. Anyways i will give you a quick reply and then later on show you how big of a bonehead you really are.

First. The quraishi condition is not mandatory. There is a major difference between saying imamah should be quraishi then imamah being only valid within quraish.

This is clear from other ahadith which i will show you later. As long as the person is implementing shariah (hadith narrated by muawiya [r] collected in sahih albukhari). The obligation of obedience remains. Even if the person is not quraishi. (Allahs Messengers [s] final sermon).This will be seen later.

Can you grip this basic difference pir saab?


Second. Even if it was mandatory. This does not promote any form of tribalism mr smartypants. Ruling by shariah is what makes the imamah valid. He is not ruling by his tribal laws nor promoting his clan. His mission is only islamic.

And nationalism and tribalism are very similar. They share the same form of loyalty. Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. So please do not try to define it with your own jahil terms.

Ibn khaldun used it in a lingustic term. Not in a islamic sense. General usage can be social solidarity. But islam has its own definition. And it is far better and superior. What it condemns is thinking superior of oneself from others due to to your family, tribe or country. This is sheer stupidity. As Allah created us to worship him. He created us in different nations, tribes, languages and colors. All so we can know one another. But the best of us is in piety and good conduct.



Well...Just because you find it difficult to debate with him, so cowardly you resort to the labelling of others as kaffirs.

Well...Atleast hes better than your salafist brother Omar Bakri

Salafism and Arab Nationalism is very similar as well.

Since we are told Arabic is the language of all Faiths and other languages are lower, also what language we will we the non arabs speak under your khalifate? If its arabic then iam afraid Clear Imperialism.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-02-2010, 05:14 PM
And ahadith were not written 200 yrs after Allahs Messenger [s]. Some of the sahabah [r] had their own ahadith collections.


But did the Prophet(pbuh) tell his sahaba to write about him? Also you say some, what about the others who later wrote about him but were not present with him.

Laila
05-02-2010, 05:22 PM
Okay i am really tired of this 'pointing fingers at each other and calling names' we are not 6 years old now. In case if you havent noticed, forums are public. We should not make it seem as if we are doing childish acts by 'pointing fingers' and calling each other 'kaffir' its quite old now. The labeling needs to stop. Period.

Thank you.

inqilab
05-02-2010, 05:28 PM
Well...Just because you find it difficult to debate with him, so cowardly you resort to the labelling of others as kaffirs.

Well...Atleast hes better than your salafist brother Omar Bakri

Salafism and Arab Nationalism is very similar as well.

Mocking islam and calling it an arab thing is kufr and makes a person a kafir. Islam did not come to spread arabism like both of you idiots think. This is not labeling, this is his attribute. Whether you like it or not makes no difference. Just like you being attractive to hijabis lol

Who is omar bakri? I never met him. And i already told you i do not like salafis. Both of you are boneheads.


Since we are told Arabic is the language of all Faiths and other languages are lower, also what language we will we the non arabs speak under your khalifate? If its arabic then iam afraid Clear Imperialism.

Whose we? I was never told that. Do you even know who wrote most of the early arabic dictionaries? It was muslim persians. They were not arabs. They learned arabic and perfected it. Even better then the arabs themselves.

Most of the compilers of ahadith were not arabs. Bukhari was not arab. Muslimw as not arab. Tirmizi was not arab. Abu dawud was not arab. Ibn maja was not. Who else is there? Ahmad was iraqi.

So all of this is just your own personal regurgitated crap. And the irony is that this person thinks he is educated lol

inqilab
05-02-2010, 05:32 PM
But did the Prophet(pbuh) tell his sahaba to write about him? Also you say some, what about the others who later wrote about him but were not present with him.

At first he prohibited it. But then he permitted it. Both are documented authentically.

Well you have to learn how hadith science works to know how they collected the sayings. Many orientalists made the same claims. And this all has been refuted.

Since your in uk. You can easily find books by muhammad mustafa azami. He has a few books on hadith and refutes orientalists. Good books. Maybe they even have them in your local masjid.

If i find them online i will link them to you.

inqilab
05-02-2010, 05:37 PM
Okay i am really tired of this 'pointing fingers at each other and calling names' we are not 6 years old now. In case if you havent noticed, forums are public. We should not make it seem as if we are doing childish acts by 'pointing fingers' and calling each other 'kaffir' its quite old now. The labeling needs to stop. Period.

Thank you.


When people insulted Allahs messenger [s] where was your advice?

Please keep it to yourself.

Laila
05-02-2010, 05:45 PM
When people insulted Allahs messenger [s] where was your advice?

Please keep it to yourself.

I dont care what situation it was. Whether you said something to him or he said something to you. The point is to refrain from labeling and name calling. Simple as that.

tor_khan
05-03-2010, 12:07 AM
Thank you MsFutureDoc. Very level headed. :thumbup:

Name calling doesn't help folks. Considering the many troubles in our home patch, and the NEED for Pashtoon unity, what does name calling or petty squabbles achieve?

In case anyone was mistaken, Pashtoons are a composite group. There are born Pashtoons, there are folk who become absorbed into the culture. There are pro-religous and pro-secular. If there is one thing we should have learned in our recent past, it's that there are many on the outside who benefit from the disunity within. Which one of you doesn't care about your brothers and sisters poor and displaced living in refugee camps or facing the onslaught of NATO shelling or army abuses? Which one of you is proud of the illiteracy and violence that blights us? Which one of you is proud of the corruption and the continous missed opportunities? We all want progress and betterment. If we carry on fighting over these issues, then damn, we're all finished.

From a humanist point of view, or a religious point of view, learn to love your brother* - your Pashtoon brother - first. Da Khudai au da Rasool da paara, wrorwali ukai.

*metaphorical - I mean of course, "brother and sister"

Roshina
05-03-2010, 12:51 AM
*metaphorical - I mean of course, "brother and sister"

LOL! :D Lovely! ;)

I can't believe how far this thread has gone!!!

Roshina
05-03-2010, 12:57 AM
saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

Why don't you share with us those "well-documented ahadith" that tell us that nationalism is absolutely HARAAM, my brother in faith and ethnicity?

Last I checked, Islam believed in supporting the oppressed and standing up for justice even if it meant standing up against your own family:

O you who believe, stand up for justice, witnesses to Allah, even if it is against your own souls or your parents and close family... (Quran, 4:136).

And ALL Pashtuns are asking for is justice on their own land. You need to help the people with whom you share blood, language, culture, and many physical features before you go to help others just because they have a religion in common with you. When more than one group of people are so oppressed (e.g., Pashtuns, Palestinians, and Sudanese), HOW do Muslims pick and choose whom to dedicate their entire time to? :S HOW many Muslims stood up for Pashtuns or are even aware of our recent plight?

So much for brother/sisterhood, I guess.

Charity begins at home.

And our demanding a nation for ourselves doesn't mean we'll turn our heads to the rest of the Muslim world :| What makes people think this? I don't understand.

abubaker
05-03-2010, 01:12 AM
Read the ahadith me mulah posted.

inqilab
05-03-2010, 02:33 PM
I dont care what situation it was. Whether you said something to him or he said something to you. The point is to refrain from labeling and name calling. Simple as that.



I refuse to take your advice. No hard feelings.

pir_Rokhan
05-03-2010, 03:18 PM
saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

Are you suffering from obssessive compulsive disorder ? I gave you the arguments in my earlier post if you kindly bother to read and then re read and then try to understand it.

Dont call yourself Abu Bakr or Omer or anyone else. Be yourself. Imitating will never evolve you psychologically.Liberate your mind from the fabricated stories of Arabs who concocted them to keep you their slave.

pir_Rokhan
05-03-2010, 04:17 PM
I just saw what pir rokhan lol. So we can confirm that he is a kafir. People like him bring dishonor and shame to pashtuns. We should hide our faces from such people.

My dear "Militant Mullah" [I think just Mullah was enough ,we know the implications]

It is very easy to pass verdicts that is one of the symptoms of a complicated disease in abnormal psychology however I would appreciate argument if you deem it necessary,ofcourse.


Anyways I will give you a quick reply and then later on show you how big of a bonehead you really are. And not as intelligent as you pretend to be.
First. The quraishi condition is not mandatory. There is a major difference between saying imamah should be quraishi then imamah being only valid within quraish.


This is clear from other ahadith which i will show you later. As long as the person is implementing shariah (hadith narrated by muawiya [r] collected in sahih albukhari). The obligation of obedience remains. Even if the person is not quraishi. (Allahs Messengers [s] final sermon).This will be seen later.

Can you grip this basic difference pir saab?


I dont believe in the Ahadith which you revere so much as your source and you dont even quote a single reference from Quran which is considered the primary source.

In my opinion ,and this is same as Ubaidullah Sindhi's opinion, that the status of Hadith is same as "Israeliyat" or "bible" in authenticity,but my basic point is not the arabic grammatical compostion of the hadith [about which you dont seem to have any clue unfortunatley] ,my point is the limitedness of imamat, as bedoins call it, to Quraish. Abul ala Mawdudi has discussed it in detail in his compilations [Rasail wa Masail,sorry it is in Urdu].

Just think for a moment that your version of Islam claims to give a system to the world , to the humanity and then say that a certain tribe should rule (whether according to or against Sharia). Does it make sense to you ? That is why one would conclude that Islam was good for that time and for Arabs, now it is no more valid to solve the problems of the modern age.

Second. Even if it was mandatory. This does not promote any form of tribalism mr smartypants. Ruling by shariah is what makes the imamah valid. He is not ruling by his tribal laws nor promoting his clan like the jahil pashtunwali codes. His mission is only islamic.

This is all your lack of understanding .Quriash was a tribe it had no proprietary rights. Others had equal rights . Please read religeous literature on this instead of speculating using your limited IQ. However the other point you raised is also debatable.

Do you know what Shariah is? Your Shariah is just a set of interpretations of various jurists which you try to impose on a society which has progressed a thousand years ahead of your speculations.This is called "organised religion".The prophets who are normally natural leaders with higher level of self consciousness give some principles for the progress of a nation and generally for humanity for a certain period of time. What happens afterwards is that the clergy which uses religion as their source of income translates these broader principles according to their interest and consider anyone who refuses to accept their interpretatio as "Kafir" etc.This is exactly you are doing by advocating the organised religion translated into ideas which are of benefit to the exploiter class ,the clergy,the monarchy,the haves,the capitalists,the elite class etc.

And nationalism and tribalism are very similar. They share the same form of loyalty. Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. So please do not try to define it with your own crooked mind.

This is your interpretation about nationalism.You need to learn a lot. No further comments. Read history of nation state to know the basics.


Ibn khaldun used it in a lingustic term. Not in a islamic sense. General usage can be social solidarity. But islam has its own definition. And it is far better and superior. What it condemns is thinking superior of oneself from others due to to your family, tribe or country. This is sheer stupidity. As Allah created us to worship him. He created us in different nations, tribes, languages and colors. All so we can know one another. But the best of us is in piety and good conduct.

I never said Ibne Khaldun used it as a term of Quran or Sunnah.Your fallacious and poor comprehension powers compell you to conclude what is not even implied as a tertiary result.

What you call the defination of Islam is infact your own interpretation and you by your own authority got that discretion not only to define things on behalf of Islam but also the divine decree of labelling people who dare to refuse your misunderstandings as Kafir. I think this is not fair.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-03-2010, 04:35 PM
You know what i find amazing and so obvious is that they (militant Mullah and Sangar the european Salafis) say the those who follow Pashtunwali are Jahil and unislamic, and he says those who follow non arab bedion laws are non Muslims and Jahil, and like he said on his previous comment, that those who follow Pashtunwali are jahils, but what if we follow a european system of law, will we still be called Jahil even those their back sides are enjoying it while their desert bedions cant even organise a village without publically whipping those with clean shave faces.

It goes beyond common sense.

Also he calls people as kaffirs and a shame to Pashtuns, but what is more shameful than betray your own Pashtunwali and adopt a System that is suited for backward Desert Arabs of Arabia.

Pashtunwali can be reformed but sadly Salafism and Wahabism can not be reformed as those who spread it are themselves extremely arrogant and only good at labelling others as kaffirs and non relgionous etc etc etc but they themselves feel at peace within a european society and i know for a fact they wouldnt want to leave such as country.

شمله ور خراساني
05-03-2010, 04:56 PM
Pir Rokhan thinks everyone is either stupid or crazy.

Schizophrenia Noun S: (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=schizophrenia&i=0&h=0#c) (n) schizophrenia, schizophrenic disorder (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=schizophrenic+disorder), schizophrenic psychosis (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=schizophrenic+psychosis), dementia praecox (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=dementia+praecox) (any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social contact)

pir_Rokhan
05-03-2010, 05:21 PM
Sanagr Khana

You see , I dont think this about everyone. I dont want to hurt anyone. Let them find it themselves by referring to wiki or something else.This way they evolve and they feel it too.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-03-2010, 05:28 PM
Pir Rokhan thinks everyone is either stupid or crazy.

Schizophrenia Noun S: (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=schizophrenia&i=0&h=0#c) (n) schizophrenia, schizophrenic disorder (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=schizophrenic+disorder), schizophrenic psychosis (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=schizophrenic+psychosis), dementia praecox (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=dementia+praecox) (any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social contact)


When did you become a Doctor, and its funny coming from a guy who beleives in Stoning people to death.

inqilab
05-03-2010, 05:32 PM
My dear "Militant Mullah" [I think just Mullah was enough ,we know the implications]

It is very easy to pass verdicts that is one of the symptoms of a complicated disease in abnormal psychology however I would appreciate argument if you deem it necessary,ofcourse.

......... You lied. And i responded.



I dont believe in the Ahadith which you revere so much as your source and you dont even quote a single reference from Quran which is considered the primary source.

That ends the discussion does it not? I will not even bother.

Even though it was you who used ahadith to do what again?

"Do you want me to hurt your weak faith by something which is in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim [considered more important for the Salafis than Quran in most cases if not all] ? Do not get pissed off then."

And you failed. And both of you can keep using your british tactics of labeling people salafi or wahabi simply bc people do not accept your distorted propaganda of islam. You are just slandering them and lowering yourself into a taboo.

This opens to another distortion. You cannot understand the Quran without ahadith. Plain and simple. This even shows how your out of touch with the historical accounts of ahruf and qira'at of the Quran. It would have been impossible for you to read the Quran or more even understand it.

If you reject ahadith. By default you reject Quran.

inqilab
05-03-2010, 05:45 PM
You know what i find amazing and so obvious is that they (militant Mullah and Sangar the european Salafis) say the those who follow Pashtunwali are Jahil and unislamic, and he says those who follow non arab bedion laws are non Muslims and Jahil, and like he said on his previous comment, that those who follow Pashtunwali are jahils, but what if we follow a european system of law, will we still be called Jahil even those their back sides are enjoying it while their desert bedions cant even organise a village without publically whipping those with clean shave faces.

No i said "jahil pashtunwali codes". Huge difference my dear. As i said in another thread. As long as the laws do not contradict islam. They are fine.

And i do not live in europe lol

If i did follow european laws, or any laws. Above islam. This would be shirk. Worst form of jahilia.



It goes beyond common sense. lol funny coming from you.

Also he calls people as kaffirs and a shame to Pashtuns, but what is more shameful than betray your own Pashtunwali and adopt a System that is suited for backward Desert Arabs of Arabia.

Pashtunwali can be reformed but sadly Salafism and Wahabism can not be reformed as those who spread it are themselves extremely arrogant and only good at labelling others as kaffirs and non relgionous etc etc etc but they themselves feel at peace within a european society and i know for a fact they wouldnt want to leave such as country.There you go again with your arabism and wahabi/salafi crap.

I do not even have to respond much. You will just keep exposing yourself with your anti-islamic comments. Then play dumb as if what you said is nothign wrong. Your british masters did a good job on you. They were the ones who spread all this form of nationalism to divide the muslim ummah. And it seems you are still mentally enslaved to their propaganda. Still a british lackey at the end.

A result of a bitter harvest. And i will not associate with people like that. Pashtun or not. My countrymen or not.

I am with muslims. Islam is more important to me.

pir_Rokhan
05-03-2010, 06:24 PM
You lied. And i responded.


And you responded without understanding what I meant...Gosh!


Even though it was you who used ahadith to do what again?
"Do you want me to hurt your weak faith by something which is in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim [considered more important for the Salafis than Quran in most cases if not all] ? Do not get pissed off then." And you failed.


I just warned you initially when I said that do you want me to paste somethign which is going to shake your faith but then taking pity on your weak faith and weaker comprehension of religion I did not paste the funny things in your revered Sahihain books as I am not here for that. If you are confidant then please respond in the "Does God exist" thread. Let us discuss basic things to know how much of your faith belongs to the intellectual domain.

And both of you can keep using your british tactics of labeling people salafi or wahabi simply bc people do not accept your distorted propaganda of islam. You are just slandering them and lowering yourself into a taboo.

You see I never called you Wahabi/Salafi/Khalafi whatever though you may be one and for me it is fine as all the religeous poeple have the same misconceptions about life and universe hence it does not matter whether they call themselves X or Y. However these names have different POLITICAL implications which you dont seem to be interested in and which are my area of interest to be frank with you.

The British did use these techniques because they sensed the intrinsic weakness in the Indian/South asian society and today the ISI is using the same technique to make Afghan a certified nation of refugees who do not know anyhting else except kumak and kumak. I have a problem with the latter.I dont want my nation to be a begger nation.


This opens to another distortion. You cannot understand the Quran without ahadith. Plain and simple. This even shows how your out of touch with the historical accounts of ahruf and qira'at of the Quran. It would have been impossible for you to read the Quran or more even understand it.If you reject ahadith. By default you reject Quran.

This is what all Ahle hadith Saudis are indoctrinated to believe in because they can add their pro monarchic interpretations into Quranic interpretation only while it is very easy to do the same in Hadith both in text and interpretation.

However , to your disappointment , I am neither interested in Quran nor in Hadith. They were classic Arabic literary pieces with quite a lot of wisdom in them as all literary classics have.

The prophet of Islam was also a great Arab leader who contributed a lot to Arabs and humanity. Now the problem is that these classic books are in ARABIC which is not our language hence we are not accountable and nor do they offer any solution to the ills of humanity or for example for Afghans.And the man is no more there. So despite their historic importance and reverence , practically they are of no use to us. Hence I am neither against it nor in favour of it. This is the only scinetific behaviour . I accept things if they have some scientific proof or practical utility.

Neither can you prove God or other things scientifically nor your version of Islam have any solution to our problems so what shoud I do with it?

شمله ور خراساني
05-03-2010, 07:04 PM
Its hilarious to see poor Mullah being accused of Salafism while in fact Mullah is one of the most hated Anti-Salafists out there. He crushed the Saudi Salafi nutjobs on different forums so often they actually hate him for every post now. haha!

AMazing how these fascists are unable to see the world as it is and only stamp and label everyone based on their silly limited perception and understanding.

pir_Rokhan
05-03-2010, 07:27 PM
I am not aware of Mullah's Jihad agaisnt Salafis or whatever nor do I know about anyone's hatred towards him,however one thing I know is that you are fond of profiling people ,passing your verdicts soemtimes in religeous terms and soemtimes in political terms unwarrantedly. Apparently as no other normal person would do that so there must be soemthing wrong with your religosity as your other credentials do not qualify you for that.This is sad to say the least.

شمله ور خراساني
05-03-2010, 08:05 PM
I am not aware of Mullah's Jihad agaisnt Salafis or whatever nor do I know about anyone's hatred towards him,however one thing I know is that you are fond of profiling people ,passing your verdicts soemtimes in religeous terms and soemtimes in political terms unwarrantedly. Apparently as no other normal person would do that so there must be soemthing wrong with your religosity as your other credentials do not qualify you for that.This is sad to say the least.
Kena marra!

you are here calling people stupid just because people are religious and not like you. You are here insulting our religion because we do not enjoin in your qawm-worship and social democrat nonsense.

And you complain saying we profile people?

Ghat sarrai ye, sharmege na?

pir_Rokhan
05-03-2010, 08:32 PM
Kena marra!

you are here calling people stupid just because people are religious and not like you. You are here insulting our religion because we do not enjoin in your qawm-worship and social democrat nonsense.

And you complain saying we profile people?

Ghat sarrai ye, sharmege na?

I havent done anything like callin someone kafir,or fascist which makes me ashamed. Being a nationalist or Islamist is everybody's choice.

her saray paida day khpal khpal kar lara kana!

Ke tsenga ?

MazloomyarMaseed
05-07-2010, 11:26 AM
No i said "jahil pashtunwali codes". Huge difference my dear. As i said in another thread. As long as the laws do not contradict islam. They are fine.

And i do not live in europe lol

If i did follow european laws, or any laws. Above islam. This would be shirk. Worst form of jahilia.



lol funny coming from you.

There you go again with your arabism and wahabi/salafi crap.

I do not even have to respond much. You will just keep exposing yourself with your anti-islamic comments. Then play dumb as if what you said is nothign wrong. Your british masters did a good job on you. They were the ones who spread all this form of nationalism to divide the muslim ummah. And it seems you are still mentally enslaved to their propaganda. Still a british lackey at the end.

A result of a bitter harvest. And i will not associate with people like that. Pashtun or not. My countrymen or not.

I am with muslims. Islam is more important to me.


With respect

It was the British who divided the Pashtun Nationalists by using any means even Islam to defame the Pashtun Nationalists such as Bacha Khan etc.

The British even prevented the Nationalists from voting in the Pakistan Referendem, so what is your arguement that Pashtun Nationalists such as me are tools of the British??? It was arabs who choose to side with the British to destroy the Ottomon khalifate and bring in Wahabism.

Also i would like to add another thing, During the east bengal war, it was the Islamic Parties who supported Pakistans war on bengalis with an Islamic justification, the JUI supported the massacre of innocent bengalis, and labelled those Bengalis who fought for their independence as Kaffir Nationalists, same with ANP, look at their history, the British saw the Pashtun Nationalists as a threat but Islamists as a great tool to divide India.

So please roara, dont just generalise one group of Nationalists with the whole Islamic ummah, Pashtuns have never ever declare war on any fellow Muslim, but Muslims have in many forms.

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 12:13 PM
Question for the nationalists who accuse religious people of selling out to kuffar.

Who are the Afghan Millat Pashtun Nationalists allied with? How come majority of Karzai government are Afghan Millatis?

And who did Asfandyar Wali Khan choose as ally? Isn't ANP not Allied with Zardari?

While 46 countries of the world are united in their killing and massacre of your Pashtun kinsmen, the nationalist and socialist alcoholics and sell-outs are chiefs and ministers of those puppet regimes installed by the invaders.


I know Afghan Millatis very well. They are all bunch of alcoholics who spend governments money on lavish lifestyle.

If you nationalists are to much better howcome your leaders own porn cinemas in Peshawar?

abubaker
05-07-2010, 12:29 PM
har chirtha chi afghan millatai da di khalilzad pa kuna nana wathai, thir kal di inthikhabato pa wakht ki mu ya so afghan millatyano sara thauthan mulaqath waso, au har yaw di alif na newali thar ya pori di khalil zad murtad ghulaman wal,

MazloomyarMaseed
05-07-2010, 12:32 PM
Question for the nationalists who accuse religious people of selling out to kuffar.

Who are the Afghan Millat Pashtun Nationalists allied with? How come majority of Karzai government are Afghan Millatis?

And who did Asfandyar Wali Khan choose as ally? Isn't ANP not Allied with Zardari?

While 46 countries of the world are united in their killing and massacre of your Pashtun kinsmen, the nationalist and socialist alcoholics and sell-outs are chiefs and ministers of those puppet regimes installed by the invaders.


I know Afghan Millatis very well. They are all bunch of alcoholics who spend governments money on lavish lifestyle.

If you nationalists are to much better howcome your leaders own porn cinemas in Peshawar?


With respect roara

You are using certain charactistics of a group of people to support your anger.

Can you show me where the Achakzai Party owes porn cinemas in Peshawer?

Secondly, to be honest, ive never met nor do i know much about the Afghan Millet Party, but rest assured, not all Nationalists are like them.

Also I can say the same with a similar tone as yours, that why do regionous leaders such as fazul rehman of JUI get medical treatment in America and owe properties in so called Non Muslim countries whom they dispise and advise their followers not to be friends with, I can also say,why do Pro Khalifat followers accept money from the state of Pakistan to do jihad in Afghanistan and in India to harm civlians etc.

Also i can also add, that if porn cinemas are made by so called nationalists, then what about the suicide camps, where chidlren are shown images of women and rivers of milk to deceive the young mind, which is no different than the porn garbage.

Rest Assure, i agree with you in regards to the lack of confidence amongst Nationalists, as they are sold, traitors, followers of alien ideologies, not truely representing Pashtuns, but however, not all are like this, if you go to bolochistan and meet members of the PMAP and you will notice how orthodox and how Pashtun they truely are.

Iam a Nationalist, and i oppose what ever they do, in regards to what you have written, it doesnt make me one of them due to their ill habits.

I want Pashtun Unity, but not through coward and hipocrital methods.

I will never sell a fellow Pakhtana to serve the erotic desires or needs of anybody.

Thanks sanger.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-07-2010, 12:33 PM
har chirtha chi afghan millatai da di khalilzad pa kuna nana wathai, thir kal di inthikhabato pa wakht ki mu ya so afghan millatyano sara thauthan mulaqath waso, au har yaw di alif na newali thar ya pori di khalil zad murtad ghulaman wal,


Dear Abubaker

There are many murtads even in Nationalist parties, but a bigger murtad is those who claim to fight for Allah but get training from ISI and CIA.

Thanks

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 02:01 PM
With respect roara

You are using certain charactistics of a group of people to support your anger.

Can you show me where the Achakzai Party owes porn cinemas in Peshawer?

Secondly, to be honest, ive never met nor do i know much about the Afghan Millet Party, but rest assured, not all Nationalists are like them.

Also I can say the same with a similar tone as yours, that why do regionous leaders such as fazul rehman of JUI get medical treatment in America and owe properties in so called Non Muslim countries whom they dispise and advise their followers not to be friends with, I can also say,why do Pro Khalifat followers accept money from the state of Pakistan to do jihad in Afghanistan and in India to harm civlians etc.

Also i can also add, that if porn cinemas are made by so called nationalists, then what about the suicide camps, where chidlren are shown images of women and rivers of milk to deceive the young mind, which is no different than the porn garbage.

Rest Assure, i agree with you in regards to the lack of confidence amongst Nationalists, as they are sold, traitors, followers of alien ideologies, not truely representing Pashtuns, but however, not all are like this, if you go to bolochistan and meet members of the PMAP and you will notice how orthodox and how Pashtun they truely are.

Iam a Nationalist, and i oppose what ever they do, in regards to what you have written, it doesnt make me one of them due to their ill habits.

I want Pashtun Unity, but not through coward and hipocrital methods.

I will never sell a fellow Pakhtana to serve the erotic desires or needs of anybody.

Thanks sanger.


So basically, you are saying that if nationalists do bad things, it does not mean all Pashtuns who are patriotic and love their culture and language are bad.

And that if ANP members own porn cinemas in Peshawar it does not mean every Pashtun who loves his culture and language is a pimp.

Then if this is your reasoning, why do you accuse all religious people of being sell-outs, terrorists, and brainwashed salafi jihadis?

Who is Fazlulrahman? Is he the king of Islamism? Does it mean that if one wants Shari'ah law, he must be a follower of Fzlulrahman?

And if the pro Saudi clerics and Saudi royal family supports America and Israel, does this mean all Arab Muslims are bad people?

Don't you see that you have been accusing people of all sorts of things, while the same kind of reasoning can be used against you?

If you care about your people, and if you care about your language, culture and heritage, that does not make you a nationalist. Because nationalism is an idealogy invented by European philosophers. And those secularist corrupt *******s like Afghan Millat and that sell-out Asfandyar Wali Khan are just using Pashtun identity for their own personal interest?

We all love our culture, language, heritage, history and identity. We all want to prevent outsiders to dominate us. We all want to get rid of opressive rulers. We all want to cut the hands of those who interfere in our domestic politics. We all want to progress. We all want to get educated. We all want to develop our society for the better. And yet, keep our culture, language and identity intact.

So why do we have to use titles as nationalist, or Talib or Jamyati or whatver?

We are all Muslims first, of Pashtun origin. Our culture is a mixture of Islam and out ancient codes of ethics and morals.

We don't need to shave out beards and have silly moustaches wearing ill-fitted customs to pose as liberals and progressives.

Our religion does not prevent us from progress. Adhering to the Sunnah of our prophet does not contradict our Pashtun identity.

Today, most Muslim nations of the world have abandoned the Sunnah, while Pashtuns are the only people who have managed to hold on to their religion and idenity.

We have to be proud of who we are. We are the last bastion of true Islam. We are the last nation who is still free of Western corruption.

We are being threatened from all sides. They attack our religion to subdue us to assimilate to their values and mentality so they can enslave us like they enslaved Punjabis, Indians, Africans, Arabs and South Americans.

Our source of power and superiority lies not only in our Pashtun genes, but in our devout submission to Allah. They attack our culture by imposing Parsi and Punjabi on us. And they attack our religion by demonizing our religion.

So instead of choosing parties and choosing labels and names for ourselves to distinguish ourselves in concepts and groups invented by Europeans we should open our eyes and look at what we have in common. And what our common interests are.

We all share the same interest. We want to stay a free nation. We want to protect our culture, language religion and customs from perversion. We want to stop Pakistan, India, Iran America, Russia Soudi Arabia and Israerl from dominating our political landscape.

So why do we have to use stupid European terms as "nationalist" and "fundamentalist" or whatever to distinguish ourselves from one another?

MazloomyarMaseed
05-07-2010, 02:29 PM
So basically, you are saying that if nationalists do bad things, it does not mean all Pashtuns who are patriotic and love their culture and language are bad.

And that if ANP members own porn cinemas in Peshawar it does not mean every Pashtun who loves his culture and language is a pimp.

Then if this is your reasoning, why do you accuse all religious people of being sell-outs, terrorists, and brainwashed salafi jihadis?

Who is Fazlulrahman? Is he the king of Islamism? Does it mean that if one wants Shari'ah law, he must be a follower of Fzlulrahman?

And if the pro Saudi clerics and Saudi royal family supports America and Israel, does this mean all Arab Muslims are bad people?

Don't you see that you have been accusing people of all sorts of things, while the same kind of reasoning can be used against you?

If you care about your people, and if you care about your language, culture and heritage, that does not make you a nationalist. Because nationalism is an idealogy invented by European philosophers. And those secularist corrupt *******s like Afghan Millat and that sell-out Asfandyar Wali Khan are just using Pashtun identity for their own personal interest?

We all love our culture, language, heritage, history and identity. We all want to prevent outsiders to dominate us. We all want to get rid of opressive rulers. We all want to cut the hands of those who interfere in our domestic politics. We all want to progress. We all want to get educated. We all want to develop our society for the better. And yet, keep our culture, language and identity intact.

So why do we have to use titles as nationalist, or Talib or Jamyati or whatver?

We are all Muslims first, of Pashtun origin. Our culture is a mixture of Islam and out ancient codes of ethics and morals.

We don't need to shave out beards and have silly moustaches wearing ill-fitted customs to pose as liberals and progressives.

Our religion does not prevent us from progress. Adhering to the Sunnah of our prophet does not contradict our Pashtun identity.

Today, most Muslim nations of the world have abandoned the Sunnah, while Pashtuns are the only people who have managed to hold on to their religion and idenity.

We have to be proud of who we are. We are the last bastion of true Islam. We are the last nation who is still free of Western corruption.

We are being threatened from all sides. They attack our religion to subdue us to assimilate to their values and mentality so they can enslave us like they enslaved Punjabis, Indians, Africans, Arabs and South Americans.

Our source of power and superiority lies not only in our Pashtun genes, but in our devout submission to Allah. They attack our culture by imposing Parsi and Punjabi on us. And they attack our religion by demonizing our religion.

So instead of choosing parties and choosing labels and names for ourselves to distinguish ourselves in concepts and groups invented by Europeans we should open our eyes and look at what we have in common. And what our common interests are.

We all share the same interest. We want to stay a free nation. We want to protect our culture, language religion and customs from perversion. We want to stop Pakistan, India, Iran America, Russia Soudi Arabia and Israerl from dominating our political landscape.

So why do we have to use stupid European terms as "nationalist" and "fundamentalist" or whatever to distinguish ourselves from one another?

Ok...lets ignore these european terms

and agree on one thing

A Real Pashtun, would protect his deen, culture,value,women and his nation.

I agree onto this, and other things are irrelevent.

But i like your views now, i agree, we need to protect our nation, but alos consider Islam as our way of life.