View Full Version : Afghan-e-Ghul: Term Origins


Shamaar
10-09-2010, 11:27 PM
Okay, I know it's a derogatory term used for us but I would like to know where this term originates from.

I have read or heard (can't remember which) a Persian legend that went something like this:

There was once a nation that was known to be very talented at warfare. Some people said this nation was composed entirely of women, others said it was like any other nation. Regardless, the Persians went to war against them and were able to defeat them. Resulting from that, 1000 women from the losing nation were taken as prisoners and were marched from their homeland to Persia. On the way they stopped in what is now Afghanistan one night to rest. During sometime that night, a very powerful demon emerged from the mountains and killed some of the Persian soldiers, the rest ran away scared. The demon then impregnated all 1000 of the captured women and left. The children born to these women and their descendants became the mountain dwelling Pashtuns.

Now, the English word ghoul comes from the Arabic word ghul which was also transmitted to Farsi. Ghoul literally means demon and Wikipedia states, "The ghul is a devilish type of jinn believed to be sired by Iblis." I am not a fluent Farsi speaker but I do know for a fact that ghul is one of their main words used for demon.

One thing to note is that the term ghul must have been transmitted to Farsi after they were Islamized/Arabized, meaning this version of the origins of the term was born after ancient Persian times.

I am wondering if this derogatory term is indeed linked to this story. If it is then Afghan-e-Ghul could mean "Afghans of the demon." Firstly, I am curious if others have heard or read of this. Secondly, if anyone knows of any other possible origins of this term. And finally, if the term is translated to mean anything else.

Admin Khan
10-09-2010, 11:34 PM
From what I have heard Shamaar is that in Kabul, when they see a Pashtun, only the Pashtun is considered an Afghan and they might at times joke and say "Afghan-e-ghul". Now, I have heard many Pashtuns complain that they are insulted by this because ghul in Pashto has a bad meaning. My uncle who was recently in Kabul said, he asked a shopper in the city a question in Pashto and he responded that he cant speak Afghani. Afghan-e-ghul is popular in Kabul which supposedly is a derogatory term preserved exclusively for Pashtuns.

I just asked my relative who graduated from Kabul University this very same question and he happens to be sitting across the room from me and he responded and said that Tajiks,Hazaras,Uzbeks etc only called Pashtuns Afghan in Kabul City. And if they were in a bad mood and felt like joking on Pashtuns, they would call us "Afghan-e-ghul" which meant Afghan fool[In a a more degrading way]But the Afghan in Afghan-e-ghul strictly equates to Pashtun, so in a way, it meant Pashtun ghul. If you couldn't speak Dari properly, you were labelled as incompetent and considered an "Afghan-e-ghul". But it didn't just have a strict correlation with Dari, it depended on many other factors at well.

It must've in my opinion originated from something more simpler, we are viewed in Pakistan and in Northern Afghanistan as incompetent and mentally challenged. It can presumably have something to do with that rumor I suppose? However, I am sure it revolves around an urban legend. I think just like how Punjabis call us Akharooth, our counterparts in Afghanistan call us Afghan-e-ghul.

Shamaar
10-09-2010, 11:44 PM
Thanks Admin bro. There was a lot of real life experience in that post which one is hardly able to get outside of the homeland.

I agree that there could be a simpler origin of the term, based on what you said.

Admin Khan
10-09-2010, 11:54 PM
Shamaar, you want to know what Kabulis think of us? Let me just give you a quick example, I was over my friends house who is from Kabul and they started telling his son "Are you going over the Afghans house?" I was shocked at what that meant because him being a Tajik and strictly referring to me as an Afghan was quite shocking to say the least. So the next day I asked his Mom in a polite and professional manner why she called me an Afghan in such a way she did. She said that in Kabul city, we are Kabulis, not Afghans. Only Pashtuns are Afghans hence when my son was going over your house, I referred to you and your family as Afghans since you speak Pashto and you are a Pashtun. I figured she must be biased and as curious as I can be Shamaar, I decided to conduct as a survey with the local senior Kabulis who weren't Pashtuns. Some said they hate being called Afghans and some said they did not care. But if it was one thing that was made very clear to me, it was that they strictly equate Pashtun = Afghan. So the next time you find some old man on YouTube blabbering and going off on how much he hates being called an Afghan, just know its not a rare case. In fact, I just asked that question to the KU graduate sitting adjacent to me and he also verified that in Kabul City, only a Pashtun is considered to be an Afghan. That is why when they insult us, they insult us with "Afghan-e-ghul" which is a euphemism for belittling us Pashtuns. However, the Afghan disapora in the west is changing and they don't mind being called Afghans at all. In fact, many other provinces don't mind. Its only a few Northern provinces who act in such a way. They strictly equate Pashtun with Afghan due to historical references. They think Shamaar(being a Pashtun) has enforced the Afghan identity on them.

Sorry if I wrote too much.

Shayesta
10-10-2010, 12:05 AM
^ Are you talking about Kabulis as in those who have been inhabitant of Kabul for centuries, or those who are originally from some Shamali area but lived in Kabul for a very long time? Because those Kabulis who have been original inhabitants of Kabul always called themselves Afghans, but those who came to Kabul at later stage are a bit more uncivilized and uneducated and therefore got no idea which term to use for whom. I in fact have met millions of Tajiks who feel insulted when you tell them they ain't Afghans and honestly speaking even in Afghanistan it's the non Tajiks who mainly call themselves non-Afghans. And with non-Tajiks I mean Uzbeks, Hazaras, Nurestanis, etcetera. They love Afghanistan, but they refer to themselves after their ethnic, or Farsiwaan as majority are Dari speakers. That's the reason I correct people who badmouth Tajiks at all times because Tajiks by far haven't harmed Pukhtoons to the level for example Hazaras or Uzbeks have, and nor are they allergic to the term Afghan as much as Nurestanis and etcetera are.

But since for whatever reason Afghanistan is known as a Tajik versus Pukhtoon country, every negativity hold towards Pukhtoons will always be credited to Tajiks, init?

Shamaar
10-10-2010, 12:07 AM
Nah, it's not too much at all. I have to admit I didn't know they were bothered by being called Afghans. That is very new to me. I always thought, based on the non-Pashtun Afghans I was friends with at university and stuff, that they were totally into the whole Afghan identity.

Me and a group of my closest friends started a Pashtun Students Association about 4 years ago at my university. We initially had several non-Pashtun Afghan friends sign up out of interest or whatever. Not 1 term went by that they launched their own purely Dari based Afghan Students Association. This left me with the impression that they place the Afghan name much higher than any of the individual ethnic names. Also, quite a few of them were from Kabul.

I guess you are right that their views change once they come to these countries. Regardless, I am enlightened by what you have presented.

Admin Khan
10-10-2010, 12:15 AM
^ Are you talking about Kabulis as in those who have been inhabitant of Kabul for centuries, or those who are originally from some Shamali area but lived in Kabul for a very long time?

I never bothered asking them that question but as we know, Kabul province is 60percent Pashtun. So obviously that 60 percent would have no objection in being called an Afghan. Kabul city and non-Pashtuns according to my experiences and the experiences of my peers who have studied in Kabul, they embrace us as wild cavemen. They have all reported and stated what I said earlier, a non-Pashtun of Kabul city doesn't like being called an Afghan and that is the exact reason the term "Afghan-e-ghul" is being coined around. If they all proudly considered themselves Afghan, they would never have insulted us Pashtuns by calling us Afghan-e-ghul. Afghan in this context strictly means Pashtun. Notice what I said, non-Pashtun. That doesn't mean the majority. Tajiks are not majority in Kabul province. However, they appear to be majority in the city.


Because those Kabulis who have been original inhabitants of Kabul always called themselves Afghans, but those who came to Kabul at later stage are a bit more uncivilized and uneducated and therefore got no idea which term to use for whom. I in fact have met millions of Tajiks who feel insulted when you tell them they ain't Afghans and honestly speaking even in Afghanistan it's the non Tajiks who mainly call themselves non-Afghans. And with non-Tajiks I mean Uzbeks, Hazaras, Nurestanis, etcetera. They love Afghanistan, but they refer to themselves after their ethnic, or Farsiwaan as majority are Dari speakers. That's the reason I correct people who badmouth Tajiks at all times because Tajiks by far haven't harmed Pukhtoons to the level for example Hazaras or Uzbeks have, and nor are they allergic to the term Afghan as much as Nurestanis and etcetera are.

I come from the city of Kandahar. In Kandahar, we have a sizable population of Tajiks and they all proudly claim they are Pashtuns. They will argue and write thesis papers that since they speak Pashto and follow Pashtunwali, they are Pashtuns. They are affluent and not dependent on Pashtuns yet they consider themselves Afghan because they have learned the language and have been speaking it for generations now. I have a Tajik friend who can't even speak Dari even if his life depended on it. He speaks Pashto and can write scientific papers in Pashto.


But since for whatever reason Afghanistan is known as a Tajik versus Pukhtoon country, every negativity hold towards Pukhtoons will always be credited to Tajiks, init?

Afghanistan is known as a Pashtun vs Pashtun country. Tajiks play no role.

Admin Khan
10-10-2010, 12:24 AM
Nah, it's not too much at all. I have to admit I didn't know they were bothered by being called Afghans. That is very new to me. I always thought, based on the non-Pashtun Afghans I was friends with at university and stuff, that they were totally into the whole Afghan identity.

Me and a group of my closest friends started a Pashtun Students Association about 4 years ago at my university. We initially had several non-Pashtun Afghan friends sign up out of interest or whatever. Not 1 term went by that they launched their own purely Dari based Afghan Students Association. This left me with the impression that they place the Afghan name much higher than any of the individual ethnic names. Also, quite a few of them were from Kabul.

I guess you are right that their views change once they come to these countries. Regardless, I am enlightened by what you have presented.

I recently attended a wedding of Kabulis[non-Pashtuns] aside from feeling extremely out of place, they all referred to themselves as Tajik and here was Admin Khan, "the Afghan". But like I said, I was receiving that vibe from the elders. The youth does not care about this nonsense. The new generation Tajiks,Uzbeks,Hazaras all proudly say they are Afghan. They won't bother saying that Shamaar[a Pashtun] has enforced the Afghan identity on them.

Our biggest problem is our lack of interest in our language. There was an Afghan TV channel[I can give you exact details if you want me too]and the News headline that go in a marquee on the bottom of the channel were only in Pashto. So, I recall a Dari speaker calling in and complaining that "Why does it only have news in Pashto, this is wrong, It should be in both languages". They agreed, and guess what? In no longer than a week, the news were both in Pashto and Dari. Now, when I occasionally grab a remote and begin flickering through TV channels, I begin seeing self-proclaimed Afghan channels, I see all programs mainly in Dari and the majority of the Afghan news channel do not have that marquee text in Pashto. So I thought to myself, I wonder if a Pashtun ever bothered calling them and complaining that they should also have the news in Pashto. But I guess not since its mainly in Dari.

And you know what? I respect Dari for that matter. I respect Dari speakers for caring so much about their language. Shame on us.

Shamaar
10-10-2010, 12:34 AM
I recently attended a wedding of Kabulis[non-Pashtuns] aside from feeling extremely out of place, they all referred to themselves as Tajik and here was Admin Khan, "the Afghan". But like I said, I was receiving that vibe from the elders. The youth does not care about this nonsense. The new generation Tajiks,Uzbeks,Hazaras all proudly say they are Afghan. They won't bother saying that Shamaar[a Pashtun] has enforced the Afghan identity on them.

Our biggest problem is our lack of interest in our language. There was an Afghan TV channel[I can give you exact details if you want me too]and the News headline that go in a marquee on the bottom of the channel were only in Pashto. So, I recall a Dari speaker calling in and complaining that "Why does it only have news in Pashto, this is wrong, It should be in both languages". They agreed, and guess what? In no longer than a week, the news were both in Pashto and Dari. Now, when I occasionally grab a remote and begin flickering through TV channels, I begin seeing self-proclaimed Afghan channels, I see all programs mainly in Dari and the majority of the Afghan news channel do not have that marquee text in Pashto. So I thought to myself, I wonder if a Pashtun ever bothered calling them and complaining that they should also have the news in Pashto. But I guess not since its mainly in Dari.

And you know what? I respect Dari for that matter. I respect Dari speakers for caring so much about their language. Shame on us.

Yeah, I think Pashtuns are like archetypical Muslims. When any other religion is so much as shown in a negative light, they'll flood the source with enough complaints to have some sort of reversion or an apology. Muslims will sit and watch their religion slammed, and maybe let out a "tsk" or a "tauba."

In these kinds of things we're disgustingly passive.

Shamaar
10-10-2010, 12:43 AM
There is not much for me to add Shamaar. Admin Khan summarized it beautifully. Afghan is an exclusive term for Pashtuns. They insult us by calling us Afghan e Ghul.

So, that old tale and stuff, is it likely just a recent fabrication?

Shamaar
10-10-2010, 12:58 AM
Yup its a fabrication.

When someone says Afghan e Ghul. They are talking about Pashtuns and insulting them as someone who is retarded and not capable of possessing common sense. Its a direct insult only for Pashtuns because they think Pashtuns are Afghans.

As a Journalist, I have heard it a lot.

Okay cool. That makes sense. I'm always intrigued by myths like these so I decided to verify it's validity on here. You guys have all been a great help.

Shayesta
10-10-2010, 01:03 AM
Muslims will sit and watch their religion slammed, and maybe let out a "tsk" or a "tauba."
Or even 'better', kill one of them and prove them right! :awkward:

Kabul city and non-Pashtuns according to my experiences and the experiences of my peers who have studied in Kabul, they embrace us as wild cavemen.
When I went to Kabul university I didn't notice any of such and nor heard any such from my Pukhtoon relatives in Kabul, who study in Dari-faculties. Though there was this one faculty where there were issues regarding Pukhto-Dari which made the faculty split into Pukhto department and Dari department, but Dari department ended up closing very quickly since the best students turned out to be Pukhtoons, obviously joining the Pukhto faculty.


They have all reported and stated what I said earlier, a non-Pashtun of Kabul city doesn't like being called an Afghan and that is the exact reason the term "Afghan-e-ghul" is being coined around.
Literally only people I heard complain about this are indeed older people (over forties) and since those people are one of the reasons of our destructions, I am not surprised by their cheap thinking. The new generation in Kabul calls themselves Afghans and I noticed there was this guy from Kunduz who kept saying 'mah Afghanha' and all of a sudden his own uncle said 'hey, bas ko dega! Tu az chi waqt Afghaan shudi?'. The guy laughed and when his uncle left he apologized and said this is the reason why Afghanistan stayed backward; Our elder people are absolutely careless about respect and don't care about other people's feelings, and yet demand respect and unfortunately some youngsters even follow them. But at least I am relieved that the more educated our population gets, the newer our generation gets, the more sensible our people become.


I come from the city of Kandahar. In Kandahar, we have a sizable population of Tajiks and they all proudly claim they are Pashtuns. They will argue and write thesis papers that since they speak Pashto and follow Pashtunwali, they are Pashtuns.
Even my forefathers from my father's side were said to be Kohistanis who adapted Pukhto and Pakhtunwali since they started to live in Kandahar, and my forefathers from my mother's side were said to be partly Arab and partly Iranians who also adapted Pukhto and Pakhtunwali after moving to Kandahar. Just like how I for example have been raised as a Pukhtana, I have got the hope many people will learn from their mistakes and finally raise their children as Afghans.


Afghanistan is known as a Pashtun vs Pashtun country. Tajiks play no role.
Could you please elaborate on this?


And you know what? I respect Dari for that matter. I respect Dari speakers for caring so much about their language. Shame on us.
Exactly! This is something I have also discussed so often with my own mother but she never seem to care and always ends up saying 'originally I ain't even a Pukhtana and nor is your father a Pukhtoon, how about I complain about my children not speaking their 'native' language?', which is right but still since Pukhto is our language now, we should put our heart and soul into promotion of our beautiful language!

pukhtana
10-10-2010, 01:05 AM
In Pakistan when a Sindhi,Baluchi or Punjabi wants to insult we are Akharuut.
In Afghanistan when a Tajik or Parsiwaan wants to insult we are Afghan-e-ghul.

Shayesta
10-10-2010, 01:10 AM
What does a Akharut mean? And why are we Pukhtoons only being called the dumb ones no matter where we are? I heard even in India people got this image of us? :S

Zayam
10-10-2010, 01:14 AM
It is so strange for me to read this, because coming from America, I have never heard anyone here speak in a negative way about Pashtun. When in Pakistan, I also did not hear it.

Feroza_Banu
10-10-2010, 04:46 AM
Kabulis especially think they are better than the rest of people in Afghanistan. They basically have a deragatory term for EVERY ethnic group in Afghanistan. To them no one can ever match their Class and Quality of life... they believe they are extremely civilized and modern people...

The term Awghan e ghool is mostly used by hazaras ... hazaras literally hate Pashtoons lol. but then again in Afghanistan there is deragatory term for every ethnic group...

examples

hazara e bini puchuq "hazara a flat nosed"
Hazara Mosh khor "Hazaras eat rats"
Uzbak e Kala Kham "uzbaks who have raw heads"
Kabuli Naan e Moli "Kabuli the stingy who eats bread and mooli"
Kabuli Kachalo Khor "kabuli who eats kachalo = stingy"
Herati Gozok "Herati who fart" I swear i don't know why they are named gozok but they are... I am sorry i am just giving examples... i don't agree to these
Farahi "Gozok again... farty people"
Kandaaari "Payloch... shoeless or loafer, or lochak"
Laghman "shaadi baaz...the ones who have monkeys"
Laghmani "420..."
Logari "Dhool wala"
Wardag "Ghool... 100000 of jokes about wardaks and them being stupid"
Tajik "baighairat... very famous... "
Hazara "sust... "

so u want me to go on?

these are normal in every country... imagine if i make list of deragatory terms they have in India for different casts and different ethnicities... u will have more than 100 pages

The reality behind all of this is that none of them should be used. NONE OF THEM. we need to respect each other! and that is the bottom line!

Mayana
10-10-2010, 05:07 AM
I've heard the term "Awghaan'e Ghool"; alluding to the fact that some Pashtuns can't even pronounce the F in Afghan right and say Awghan and still claim to be the true Afghans.. So yeah, Awghan is very derogatory, Awghan'e Ghul is used as a term to describe said ignorance and illiteracy, for the lack of better words.

Michin Khel
10-10-2010, 06:23 AM
There is not much for me to add Shamaar. Admin Khan summarized it beautifully. Afghan is an exclusive term for Pashtuns. They insult us by calling us Afghan e Ghul.

A minority is insulting you? dear afghans what has become of you, scary persianised kittens?

In pakistan every one fear "pathans", the non-pashtun cant talk ill to us on face, but in afghanistan...

Zemaryalai
10-10-2010, 06:45 AM
salamona to all you,

I was in Afghanistan for the past few months and spent most of my time in Kabul. I travelled throughout the province this time and I can tell you these ******* dariwans have taken over the whole province. The Tajiks have dominated places like paghman, pul-charkhi,charasiab and many parts of deh-sabz, khaak jabaar and paghman. Guldara, shakardara and the rest of the northern districts are 100% tajik now. The hazara beni puchuq have taken over all of western kabul and have even forcefully taken lands owned by pashtuns. There was a very big battle between hazaras and Pashtuns 2 months ago and the hazaras won. I completely disagree what shayesta has to say about their younger generation. The younger generation of these dariwans are more radical and dangerous. all of them are pro iran and tajikistan. all of Kabul's youth have voted for a young anti Pashtun candidate Baktash Siyawash who is winning right now and he is an iranian agent. now my point is that coming and chanting we are 60% of the kabul province will not solve anything for us. We should acknowledge today that we are not even 30% today in Kabul province and by accepting this we can fight back and take over Kabul but if we ignore this and still stick with our ignorance that we are a majority in that province we will definitely lose. Afghanistan is endager friends. the talk about partitioning afghanistan is all over the country and I am scared that if we pashtuns become more divided and weakened we will lose afghanistan in the near future.

Zemaryalai
10-10-2010, 06:48 AM
I forgot to mention. right now the majority of Kabulis and non-kabuli dariwans (tajeks & hazaras) call themselves Khuraasani instead of Afghan and they use Aawghaan ghoul for us.

Zemaryalai
10-10-2010, 06:49 AM
A minority is insulting you? dear afghans what has become of you, scary persianised kittens?

In pakistan every one fear "pathans", the non-pashtun cant talk ill to us on face, but in afghanistan...

yes unfortenately most pashtuns in afghanistan have turned into cowards. today Rabbani who is against pashtuns have been elected as the head of the peace council.

Michin Khel
10-10-2010, 06:57 AM
thanks zemaralay for true updates

khushal
10-10-2010, 08:13 AM
salamona to all you,

I was in Afghanistan for the past few months and spent most of my time in Kabul. I travelled throughout the province this time and I can tell you these ******* dariwans have taken over the whole province. The Tajiks have dominated places like paghman, pul-charkhi,charasiab and many parts of deh-sabz, khaak jabaar and paghman. Guldara, shakardara and the rest of the northern districts are 100% tajik now. The hazara beni puchuq have taken over all of western kabul and have even forcefully taken lands owned by pashtuns. There was a very big battle between hazaras and Pashtuns 2 months ago and the hazaras won. I completely disagree what shayesta has to say about their younger generation. The younger generation of these dariwans are more radical and dangerous. all of them are pro iran and tajikistan. all of Kabul's youth have voted for a young anti Pashtun candidate Baktash Siyawash who is winning right now and he is an iranian agent. now my point is that coming and chanting we are 60% of the kabul province will not solve anything for us. We should acknowledge today that we are not even 30% today in Kabul province and by accepting this we can fight back and take over Kabul but if we ignore this and still stick with our ignorance that we are a majority in that province we will definitely lose. Afghanistan is endager friends. the talk about partitioning afghanistan is all over the country and I am scared that if we pashtuns become more divided and weakened we will lose afghanistan in the near future.
This partition was planned from the beginning by the US. They initially brought up the idea back in early 2002, but realized it was not possible at the time. They just used the past nine years to shift the population around to define the future border and make it possible.
This Khurassan name will be used by the northerners since it will be an ethnick neutral name for the dariwans. The Pashtuns in the north will be a minority in the country and will eventually become persianized. Why do you think the Hazaras won in Kabul, they were meant to win. The hazaras are being armed by the US and are kicking out all Pashtuns living in Bamyaun.
The US is currently building up double abdullah to take over Kabul who is a big proponent of the partition. The US needs someone that is more submissive and more trustworthy in Kabul (future capital of khurassan), and the pashtuns historically has never fit that criteria.

Shayesta
10-10-2010, 09:56 AM
@Mayana
Actually, if I am not mistaken, the term Awghan was given to us by Arabs but Persians changed it to Afghan? I think it was something similar and therefore some Pukhtoons use the term Afghan, some Awghan.

@Luffy
Yeah, people are oh so scared of the Pathans that you won't surprised receiving a Pathan joke daily on your mobile phone, or noticing Punjabis starting to grim as soon as a Pathan enters the room. Oh and of course, the number of hatred Punjabis receive from non-Punjabis and the cheapness their women are looked at; I witnessed myself how many men in Pekhawri are being ridiculously disrespectful of Punjabi women. Minority issue, aye? And don't worry about words thrown at us by minorities, worry about the bombs thrown at you by the majority.

@Zemaryalai
Even before visiting Kabul I was extremely misinformed about non-Pukhtoons there. My own Tajik relatives said I should be careful while talking Pukhto in an area full of Panjsheris because they might hurt me and guess what? From the airport till the hotels at least of the security guards were Panjsheris and none of them gave a damn about what language I spoke. Panjsheris are being pictured like a bunch of monsters while in reality only some of them in power hang around like a bunch of joker, while even the respect they used to hold once in Kabul is gradually fading away. And about Hazaras, I still noticed racism towards Hazaras. We went to Paghman and indeed huge number of Hazaras were there and when we stopped at this place, there were these other Badakhshi families who kept cursing and saying these 'bini puchuqa' make the entire atmosphere of this place look ugly. Heck, when there is a fight then people usually calm down, but when a Hazara is involved people won't leave a chance in giving them a punch or few with all the insults they can come up with. Also the province which is most hardcore non-Pukhtoon is Mazar-e-Sharif and even there more and more Pukhtoons start to reside and you will notice that a huge majority isn't Tajik; Uzbeks and Hazaras are to be found in huge numbers as well and since that city is known as a 'warlord city', very few people (even Tajiks) dare to move to the city. From my cousins' experience I foud out that literally only in Mazar people are ready for separation and are possibly the least patriotic Afghans ever; Despite of their development. And about Bamyan, their people are not just against Pukhtoons, they hate the entire nation along with its government. Apparently when you are driving around in Bamyan and you ain't a Bamyani, they will force you to pull back your car if you are standing in their way, despite of your ethnic. The people of Bamyan are said to be extremely poor and live an extremely 'low' life, that's their reason for being upset.

I did notice they are pretty fond of Tajikistan and nor do I have any problem with Tajikistan, but once again I only found the men on power to be in favor of Iran. Literally only two countries people seemed to be fond of were Tajikistan and India, that's it. For the rest they curse Pakistan, USA, UK and etcetera because they know what the game is all about. But when I asked them why none takes action to solve it, they kept quiet instead of honestly answering that with USA the billions of Dollars will go as well. Though I did notice people calling themselves Farsiwaan (because I haven't heard anyone use the word Tajik even once for himself as they think Tajik means someone from Tajikistan), Hazara and etcetera, but I still have the hear the term 'Khorasani'. And about winning back Kabul, had we not formed disaster after disaster, we wouldn't facing a Tajikistan-friendly country instead of an Afghan friendly country.

tor_khan
10-10-2010, 12:20 PM
The one thing that Dari and Urdu (and English, for that matter) do really well is that they transcend ethnicity.

I love the Pashtoon people, but I hate ethnic pig-headedness that is obsessed with pure blood-lines. Trust me, I think it is important to know where you come from, but consider, if we want Pashto to be strong, then it has to radiate outwards, non-Pashtoons included and so that it can become the formidable language of business and education and not the language of some club where the members keep on falling out with one-another and running off to join other clubs. We delude ourselves with this mindset and it bothers me.

I feel that this is our Achilles Heal and this is why middle-class Pashtoons look upon their urban Persian and Hindustani counterparts and cry themselves to sleep because they feel helpless.

Mayana
10-10-2010, 03:24 PM
salamona to all you,

I was in Afghanistan for the past few months and spent most of my time in Kabul. I travelled throughout the province this time and I can tell you these ******* dariwans have taken over the whole province. The Tajiks have dominated places like paghman, pul-charkhi,charasiab and many parts of deh-sabz, khaak jabaar and paghman. Guldara, shakardara and the rest of the northern districts are 100% tajik now. The hazara beni puchuq have taken over all of western kabul and have even forcefully taken lands owned by pashtuns. There was a very big battle between hazaras and Pashtuns 2 months ago and the hazaras won. I completely disagree what shayesta has to say about their younger generation. The younger generation of these dariwans are more radical and dangerous. all of them are pro iran and tajikistan. all of Kabul's youth have voted for a young anti Pashtun candidate Baktash Siyawash who is winning right now and he is an iranian agent. now my point is that coming and chanting we are 60% of the kabul province will not solve anything for us. We should acknowledge today that we are not even 30% today in Kabul province and by accepting this we can fight back and take over Kabul but if we ignore this and still stick with our ignorance that we are a majority in that province we will definitely lose. Afghanistan is endager friends. the talk about partitioning afghanistan is all over the country and I am scared that if we pashtuns become more divided and weakened we will lose afghanistan in the near future.

Let's please refrain from insults, Zemaryalai wrora =)

Shayesta, I can't help but feel racist towards Tajiks,Uzbeks and Hazaras after what Zemaryali wrote.

How can you base your opinion on your fellow Afghans on the "reports" of a virtual character and their lacking credibility?

IamDZJ
10-10-2010, 04:02 PM
which ever thread you go to these days there is an argument over who is what and who called who what.
you all will always be what you tag each other as because none of you will let it go. you will keep reminding each other. peace and unity my foot, you people are headed straight to the gutter.

Lemar
10-10-2010, 04:04 PM
I dont know what kind of tajiks you met that hate the Afghan word or even Kabulis?
I was there a week ago and there was nothing like that, there more proud Afghans than most of Pashtuns.
I have tajiks freinds and I have never seen them insult the term Afghan.
but I accept there are exceptions

Toramana
10-10-2010, 04:26 PM
Shamar, the story you related dates back to 17th Century and has been mentioned in Makhzan-i-Afghani compiled by Nematullah Harvi on directives from Khan Jahan Lodhi the Pashtun general serving in the court of Mughal Emperor, Shah Jahan. The origin of the story is in Mughal-Pashtun enmity.

As we know Pashtuns and Mughals, being political rivals in Hindustan, have a long history of mutual and very bitter enmity e.g., the Mughal Babur defeated Pashtun Ibrahim Lodhi (alas with help from Pashtuns). Then Pashtun Sher Shah Suri defeated Hamanyun and evicted him from the throne of Dehli-Agra. But Akbar (Mughal) re-gained the throne by defeating Islam Shah Suri who was the grand son of Sher Shah Suri.

But there were still Pashtun states in the east-south of Hindustan (Behar-Bangal) that offered stiff resistance to Mughal expansion. Also, in the north, in the present KP, Byzid Ansari and the three generations of his progeny fought Mughals for almost 80 years. That was followed by the struggle by Khushal Khan Khattak and his companions Aimal Khan (Momand) and Darya Khan (Afridi) against Akbar and Aurangzeb etc.

This conflict between Mughals and Pashtuns was severe enough e.g., many Mughal armies were destroyed by Pashtuns (Yousafzais, Afridis, Momands, etc.) in the present KP (Khyber Pukhtunkhwa) to sow the seed of a permanent animosity between Pashtuns and Mughals. The animosity would also be played up in Mughal courts where courtiers would try to appease Mughal Emperors by talking against Pashtuns.

This particular myth is mentioned in Makhzan-i-Afghani where Nematullah Harvi tells us one day the Iranian/Persian Emissary told Shah Jahan and other coutiers that he has read in a book locked in some cupboard in Iran?persia that some demons had raped some women captured by Iranians the offsprings from which are Afghans/Pashtuns.

In fact, this insult prompted Khan Jahan Lodhi (who was the grandson of Daulat Khan Lodhi, the Pashtun governer of Punjab that helped Babur to defeat Ibrahim Lodhi) to have "Makhzan-i-Afghani"compiled in which Pashtuns/Afghans were linked to Ban-i-Israel (a race of prophets and knowledge and so better than Mughals).

Shamaar
10-10-2010, 04:37 PM
Thanks a lot Toramana wror for that information.

Shayesta
10-10-2010, 05:07 PM
Shayesta, I can't help but feel racist towards Tajiks,Uzbeks and Hazaras after what Zemaryali wrote.
You just can't base your opinion out of what an individual says what he experience, and same goes about my side of the story by the way. Those Tajiks in West don't even notice any difference with their Pukhtoon countrymen and I in fact have asked some if they were Tajiks or Pukhtoons and they ended up saying 'we are all Afghans, don't insult me again by asking me such a stupid question'. Literally only people whom I found biased in Kabul were the elder ones and I said, most of the time it's the non-Tajiks who throw jokes at Pukhtoons but yet sadly enough Tajiks are being accused of racism. Trust me, Tajiks by far (even their in politics) and as bad as are Hazaras and Uzbeks. But again, exceptions exists on all sides in all thinking. You really have to visit Afghanistan for that once because before visiting Afghanistan, even I was extremely racist towards non-Pukhtoons and all that because I was misinformed about them all those time.

In fact, finding a Tajik in Kabul who says he is Afghan is almost rare. Just like how Pashtuns of Afghanistan are closely related to Pakistan they are more comfortable with Tajikistan and Iran due to common language.
Hmm,, I guess only those Tajiks I met (youngsters I mean) were referring themselves as Afghans then. And about them feeling close to Iran, all I heard them do is insult Iran and especially in Herat negativity seems to grow towards Iran. Tajikistan indeed is liked but then we got no political conflict with them and it's only our weakness that Tajiks are able to interact with Tajikistanis to get closer to them, while all Pukhtoons are busy with is facing troubles.

I dont know what kind of tajiks you met that hate the Afghan word or even Kabulis? I was there a week ago and there was nothing like that, there more proud Afghans than most of Pashtuns.
This is the reason I am surprised at some comments here as well? I do accept that exceptions exist and indeed racism still exists, but I seriously didn't face any discrimination and nor any discomfort? I was talking Pukhto during my entire stay, everywhere I went, and people were absolutely fine replying me in Pukhto. Even though I was struggling to understand their Pukhto.

Toramana
10-10-2010, 05:18 PM
This is the reason I am surprised at some comments here as well? I do accept that exceptions exist and indeed racism still exists, but I seriously didn't face any discrimination and nor any discomfort? I was talking Pukhto during my entire stay, everywhere I went, and people were absolutely fine replying me in Pukhto. Even though I was struggling to understand their Pukhto.

Shayesta, I am so sorry but it seems your own circumstances compel you to paint this rosy picture of very affectionate relations between Pashtuns and Tajaks. This is because you have relatives that are Tajaks. Some other individuals are also trying to do the same.

This is a great injustice to Pashtuns/Afghans. One should not be hypersensitive but there are genuine suspicions and outstanding matters that exist between Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns and Pashtuns should be aware of them.

Shayesta
10-10-2010, 05:22 PM
^ I won't deny this regarding Mazar because I had a Mazari friend who said people of Mazar are quiet biased not only towards Pukhtoons, but every single non-Mazari. But Mazar is an extremely mixed city and when you see the faces two names will come up; Hazaras, and Uzbeks. And Edris even lives in Herat and I also got relatives in Herat who wouldn't ever mention anything against them in Herat, though in Mazar this had been the case with my relatives years ago which has calmed down now. In Kabul I noticed a lot of racism towards Hazaras and I saw how Panjsheris were in power, I also heard of arguments about Pukhtoons and non-Pukhtoons, but of racism I heard only a little. And you might know me from CK, right? Compare this thinking of mine of Tajiks with the thinking I had years before. After visiting Kabul, I saw that it's main Hazaras and Uzbeks and other ethnics who show biasedness, Tajiks ain't even half of them.

Though, as you said, I indeed might very well be mistaken.

Feroza_Banu
10-11-2010, 02:53 AM
There is no point of painting a rosy picture. We are hated and this is a clear fact. I agree with what Toramana said. We Afghans have to be aware of our enemies.

Pashtoons are not so angels in Afghanistan... u see ;)

Pashtoons have killed and mistreated enough hazaras, tajiks and uzbaks in Afghanistan... I am surprised they don't hate us as much as they SHOULD!

the best thing is to just forget the past and hope that everyone else is able to do the same... because the past has been very bloody on each side... and to forget it and move on is the ONLY way we can progress towards a stable and strong and united Afghanistan.

Zahed
10-11-2010, 05:24 AM
Pashtoons are not so angels in Afghanistan... u see ;)

Pashtoons have killed and mistreated enough hazaras, tajiks and uzbaks in Afghanistan... I am surprised they don't hate us as much as they SHOULD!

the best thing is to just forget the past and hope that everyone else is able to do the same... because the past has been very bloody on each side... and to forget it and move on is the ONLY way we can progress towards a stable and strong and united Afghanistan.
'n this is the thing some Pashtoons 're not willing to admit. they got mentalities like we can do anything to anyone we want to oo dare if someone does the same back to us! that's not how it works mate, north has faced a lot of discrimination in the past but the people exaggerate about north of being biased, it wasn't the Tajik army invading Pashtoons remember? politically all of us 're a bunch of incompetents but ethnically we 've all suffered enuf now. 'n besides its only Mazar which is being obsessed with Iran 'cause they 're literally only northerners who 're prepared for a separation.

Feroza_Banu
10-11-2010, 12:26 PM
'n this is the thing some Pashtoons 're not willing to admit. they got mentalities like we can do anything to anyone we want to oo dare if someone does the same back to us! that's not how it works mate, north has faced a lot of discrimination in the past but the people exaggerate about north of being biased, it wasn't the Tajik army invading Pashtoons remember? politically all of us 're a bunch of incompetents but ethnically we 've all suffered enuf now. 'n besides its only Mazar which is being obsessed with Iran 'cause they 're literally only northerners who 're prepared for a separation.

I agree wholeheartedly.


Lets all make a Dua for unity for Feroza.

I pray for AFghan unity ALl the time... I hate to read emotional comments here from young generation about "I hate tajiks, i hate this i hate that" THis isn't the time for it. If we are not going to learn now we will not learn EVER. LEts forget about the past. We haven't been such angels ourselves so we can't blame others either. We are going to pay a heavy price if we dn't unite under this flag... and that price is going to be Afghanistan!

Feroza_Banu
10-11-2010, 01:00 PM
^:hug:

Shayesta
10-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Pashtoons have killed and mistreated enough hazaras, tajiks and uzbaks in Afghanistan... I am surprised they don't hate us as much as they SHOULD!

If some of us have so much hatred for Tajiks because of what Northern Alliance did to Pukhtoons of whom majority were Taliban supporters in the North, then how much hatred they would have had in their hearts if Northern Alliance had done the exact same things to us, as what we did to them all those decades? And the funniest thing is that those vicious acts were put into practice by Uzbeks and Hazaras in more than double the number of Tajiks, yet Tajiks are being criticized the most.

Toramana
10-11-2010, 02:43 PM
I am sorry but Feroza_Bano and Shayesta due to their circumstances in having relatives who happen to be Tajaks are trying desperately to find a justification for the vilification campaign Tajaks in particular have been carrying out against Pashtuns. They want to tell Pashtuns that "as you have been very sinister/evil in history, so Tajaks, in particular, have the right to do whatever they want to do to you".

This is a lame logic. The first thing I will ask them is, why are you counting the deads by the Tajakized/Persianized kings of Kabul, who were more concerned about their throne than any well being of Pashtuns as the mischief of entire Pashtun nation? These Kings treated Pashtuns equally brutly whenever a threat arose to their power from Pashtuns. The iron-king, like Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, who couldn't utter even a word of Pashto, handled every one with an iron-fist in order to establish his rule. As for what the Taleban did, that was a civil war and a reaction to what Tajaks in particular had done to Pashtuns in Kabul and in the north before that.

The term Afghan-e-Ghual is not a recent one and Tajaks have been frequently using it in their smear campaign against Pashtuns, other examples of which include Kite Runners and a thousand splendid sons, a malicious attempt to malign Pashtuns internationally.

As for the unity, it is not so simple. It is not like a family matter where the good/utopian wishes of two ladies would result in love-relations between entire groups. It is between nations. Nations and groups have a clear understanding of what their interests are and as for as Tajaks are concerned, they know very well, what serves their interests well whether sentiments of blind brotherhood or a well-thought out policy of hegemonic extension of Persian/Tajak culture under the pretentions of brotherly unity or outright animosity whatever suits them. them.

Kindly, don''t see this matter of paramount importance to collective well being of Pashtuns through the goggles of family or extended family relations or other compulsions. See it through inter-nations/groups political or cultural dynamics.

Shayesta
10-11-2010, 02:55 PM
^ You haven't been reading some replies correctly, have you? If you had read more about the Northern Alliance in North, you would have found out that Tajiks by far ain't named as often as are Uzbeks and Hazaras while torturing Pukhtoons. And if you think me and Feroza are trying to bring the across message that if Pukhtoons tortured then so can Tajiks, then even I can say you support the idea of what Zahed named which goes like we can torture anyone we want but oh dare of anyone does the same back! Every action has a reaction ad if you seriously are gonna say Tajiks kicked off ethnic tensions, then you are only kidding yourself.

As far as the 'Persianized' kings go, all of them were Pukhtoons who contributed more to Dari than Pukhto, and cared more for their power than their nation; Now how are Tajiks guilty in this? And yeah Abdur Rahman served Afghans really well by selling half it's soil, plus bringing slavery on Hazaras. And what exactly did Tajiks do to Pukhtoons in North before the Taliban? Thousands Splendid Suns was written by one of the bigots who truly hates Pukhtoons and there is no doubt in it, but I doubt the entire Tajik nation helped him out with his books? Especially since his films had Iranian actors says enough of his motives.

And for the sake of their own wellbeing maybe Pukhtoons need to start thinking of other people's wellbeing as well, for example by just leaving the Northern areas alone. And if they use Afghan-e-Ghool, then many Pukhtoons use the words Parsiwane Beghairat, or refer Kabuli men as 'izzakan'.

Feroza_Banu
10-11-2010, 03:02 PM
I am sorry but Feroza_Bano and Shayesta due to their circumstances in having relatives who happen to be Tajaks are trying desperately to find a justification for the vilification campaign Tajaks in particular have been carrying out against Pashtuns. They want to tell Pashtuns that "as you have been very sinister/evil in history, so Tajaks, in particular, have the right to do whatever they want to do to you".

This is a lame logic. The first thing I will ask them is, why are you counting the deads by the Tajakized/Persianized kings of Kabul, who were more concerned about their throne than any well being of Pashtuns as the mischief of entire Pashtun nation? These Kings treated Pashtuns equally brutly whenever a threat arose to their power from Pashtuns. The iron-king, like Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, who couldn't utter even a word of Pashto, handled every one with an iron-fist in order to establish his rule. As for what the Taleban did, that was a civil war and a reaction to what Tajaks in particular had done to Pashtuns in Kabul and in the north before that.

The term Afghan-e-Ghual is not a recent one and Tajaks have been frequently using it in their smear campaign against Pashtuns, other examples of which include Kite Runners and a thousand splendid sons, a malicious attempt to malign Pashtuns internationally.

As for the unity, it is not so simple. It is not like a family matter where the good/utopian wishes of two ladies would result in love-relations between entire groups. It is between nations. Nations and groups have a clear understanding of what their interests are and as for as Tajaks are concerned, they know very well, what serves their interests well whether sentiments of blind brotherhood or a well-thought out policy of hegemonic extension of Persian/Tajak culture under the pretentions of brotherly unity or outright animosity whatever suits them. them.

Kindly, don''t see this matter of paramount importance to collective well being of Pashtuns through the goggles of family or extended family relations or other compulsions. See it through inter-nations/groups political or cultural dynamics.

What a waste of space you are. you couldn't find anything worth while to write so you started writing about me having tajik relatives which is why i Back Afghan unity? I didn't know i have tajik relatives...but thanks for telling me because I am going to go find them now.

You are ignorant... thats the bottom line. The ones who chant the slogan of Unity between all ethnic groups in Afghanistan are indeed the most patriotic ones... We are for the best interest of our Country... and people like you who like to create ethnic tension amongst us Afghans are OUR ENEMIES.

Whatever i write, i try to tell the truth, my opinion is not biased and definitely not one sided. I am for telling the truth, even if it means pointing fingers at my own blood at my own parents.

I hate double faced hypocrites , the ones who only speak highly of their own kind and ignore the positive sides of others... they are the worst of human beings... and i wouldn't want to be the worst.