View Full Version : Islam is just a religion like any other religion


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Badlun
07-22-2010, 08:31 PM
Itís a common perception that Islam is a complete way of life and has solution to all the problems of human life where in this world or the Hereafter. I donít believe in this perception and consider Islam only a religion like any other religion but with its own sets of beliefs, modes of worship and moral values and ethical injunctions. If we analyze all the important definitions of the term Religion then we may find that all these definitions have three things in common. These are faith, worship and morality. Islam like any other religion guides its followers in these there spheres but is not a complete system for life but it does not provide complete guidance for other spheres of life like culture, politics, economy, science, technology, philosophy, psychology etc.

We may note that I am not talking of an idea which will harm Islam but if we consider Islam only as a religion it will be in the benefit of Islam itself. This will also solve all the problems Muslims are facing like terrorism, Extremism.

After doing lot of research and discussions I did not find any one who can prove that Islam guide us completely in political, cultural, social, economic, technological, financial, scientific, historical, anthropological, philosophical, psychological, logical, mathematical, artistic, astronomical, commercial, agricultural, ecological, statistical, electronic and other aspects of life. If Islam does not guide us in all these spheres of life then it can only be called as a religion but not as a system or complete way of life. This is why Islam was never implemented as a complete code of life in history. It was not so attractive to people to be adopted or promulgated completely because it lacks guidance for all the different activities of life.

In Islam one has Aqeeda (belief, faith) , ibadat(worship) and Akhlaq(morality) and this is what religion is. A religious person like Muslim should have beliefs in God, prophets, holy books, hereafter etc, then may worship as in the form of prayers, fasting, charity, pilgrimage and then may have some moral codes as not telling lie, not killing etc. This is all what religion is but beyond that Islam has nothing to offer. For guidance in other aspects of life we have to resort to other systems and ideologies like democracy, capitalism, liberalism, cultural and social theories and other scientific and technological theories and practices which has nothing to do with Islam and Islam has nothing to do with them.

Considering Islam as a complete way of life encourages extremism and religious extremism and Wahabism is really a menace. To avoid such evils, the only way is to accept Islam as religion (faith+worship+morals) and not culture, political system, legal system, economic system and source of education.


Some people like Taliban and other religious political parties struggle for the promulgation of Islamic Political system but Islam as a political system has always been a failure from the time of Abubakar Abassids, Mughals, to Pakistan , Sudan, Somalia , Saudi , Afghanistan , Egypt, Turkey, and Iran of today. Whatever presence it had was because of dictators, monarchs and sultans not because of its inherent political qualities. The very opposition of the so called Political Islam to democracy is a big stigma on its face.

Islam was a failure in Turkey and today in Iran. Islam can be useful only as a religion (faith+worship+morality) and not at all as a political, cultural or economic system. Today Iran shows it that theocracy and rule of religion canít be a success in this modern world at least. To reach to this conclusion that islam is only a religion ,
I have read many Tafseers or commentaries of Quran and important books of Ahadith and Fiqa. Even I remained a student of the traditional Madrassah of Darse Nizami and have read all the important books on Fiq, sarf wa nahwa, manteq , usool, etc.

I have never found that where Islam guide us in all aspects of life as science and technology, Natural and social sciences, mathematics, linguistics, arts and crafts, philosophy, psychology etc etc. Even the legal system of Islam often talked about is just few moral principles and all the punishments like cutting of hands and stoning to death were never implemented as such and will never be implemented.
Some people consider that mere mentioning of Zakat in Quran gives Islam an economic system. Zakat is just a concept of charity like other religions and is a moral notion not an economic system.

The concept of Zakat exists in Islam and in Muslim world since more than 14 centuries but Muslim world presents the worst scenario of the poor parts of the world. The few Arab countries who are rich are not because of Zakat but owing to the natural resources specially petroleum. Look at Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asian countries, African Muslim countries all present worst cases of poverty stricken societies. Thus practically looking at things Zakat could not make Muslim countries prosperous. It might have served few individuals but has never worked as an economic system as Communism or capitalism.

Islam if not taken as only religion will destroy Islam itself as religion. People will start hating if Islam is imposed as a political, economic, cultural or social system. Taliban and Wahabis present the perfect picture of ideal Islam. Who will be ready to accept this kind of Islam? Theoretically speaking Taliban and Wahabis donít talk against Islam. Their mistake is that they consider Islam as a complete way of life and want to impose Islam on society as a complete way of life.

Islam if not presented as only religion will destroy all other cultures as itís destroying Pashtunwali. Itís a serious danger to accept Islam as a complete system. This is what all the extremists like Taliban and Wahabis claim and struggle for.

Some Muslims take Sharia as a system but I would like to clarify that Sharia is the explanation of Islamic rules and regulations but for the religion not for Islam as a system or code of life. As I stress again and again Islam is acceptable as a religion not as a system. Religion is faith, worship and morality not economy, politics, society, law and culture. For Pashtuns if they believe in Allah, worship him by offering prayers, Ramadan etc and observe some moral codes, its ok but their culture and society is Pashtunwali and their politics should be democracy and their economy should be free market economy with state control in few matters and their law should not be against the human rights.

If sharia explains how to say prayers, how to observe fasts, how to perform Hajj etc, and if it explains monotheism, beliefs in here after, prophets etc, then its ok, if it says donít tell lie then its ok but beyond that it will be crossing its limits being only a religion and this transgression will create problems as we already observe these problems in the shape of Taliban and dictatorships in Muslim countries. .No Sharia is acceptable if it tries to impose politics, economy and culture. As these were never imposed successfully because its imposition is against the spirit of Islam

Some friends say that the perfect Islam can be found in Pashtun areas then why we complain that Pashtuns have some bad customs and traditions? Two things are possible one that there is no perfect Islam in Pashtuns or if there is perfect Islam in Pashtuns then all these evils are because of Islam!!! For me the second one may be truer as these are the Muslim Taliban and Wahabi Mullas who are harsh and cruel. Pashtuns generally are very soft, hospitable, secular, music and dance lovers, cultured people, brave and tolerant, hard working and energetic.

No doubt there are few bad customs like SWARA, etc but majority of evils are because of the adoption of extremist Wahabi Islam by Pashtuns. Pashtuns before 1979, before the invasion of the former USSR on Afghanistan and the entailing Jihad were very different from what they are today. This is because of the Wahabi Arabs who changed Pashtuns into religious bigots that now even Arab go there to learn Islam in Pashtun lands as they cant implement Islam in their own Arab countries as all are ruled by dictators, kings and anti women bandits.

Extremist Islam has done away with Pashtunwali thatís why today we hear that I am Muslim, Pakistani but not Pashtun. The name Pashtun has become a taboo for many so called extremist fundamentalist Muslims. Many traditions of the Prophet Muhamamd are falsely quoted. Muslim may rely more on Quran than on hadith or traditions. Quran also must be reinterpreted in the light of modern day realities.

If these barbaric punishments like stoning to death, or cutting of hands canít be practically implemented then why they are there to be obeyed or acted upon. Basically all these verses of the Holy Quran must me understood contextually and figuratively or metaphorically and not literally as done by the Wahabi, Ahle hadith, Salafi, Deobandi Taliban.

Islam was always a failure as a system and complete code of life because we have never seen it promulgated no where except may be for few years at the life time of prophet Muhammad and upto the era of Hazrat Umar. After that we see blood shed among Muslims, even people like Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Ayesha were fighting each other and the grand son of the Prophet was killed by the son of Muyawya, And after that we have monarchies, dictatorship and no where any true Islamic state or welfare state or democratic state. Islam as a religion was always a success and has a very good belief, worship and moral system. There are few guide lines about social, cultural, political, legal and economic aspects of life but all these fall in the category of moral or ethical sphere not a complete system.

If it is announced that for all Muslim countries that there is free entry and no visa is requires for France, , UK, USA , Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, even countries like Brazil, Argentina, Mexico etc , all Muslims will rush towards these countries. Why? Because the so called Islam has given nothing to them for the last 1400 years. As a religion yes but as a system nothing. People are spending thousands of dollars just to get out of their Muslim country and to enter the infidel developed world.

Few Arab countries are prosperous but this is because of natural resources not because of their hard work. They are all lazy snails. Not a single world known scientist is found in all Muslim countries. One tiny Israel can destroy the whole Muslim world in one minute if they really wish so.

We impose Islam as a social system and then we have problems like Hijab issue in the modern developed world. France as a state has the right to impose any rule or regulation. As a school can ask for certain uniform, a state can regulate its social system according to its requirements. And wearing Hijab or Niqab or Burqa in this modern era is already redundant and I felicitate Fance, Syria and other countries to discourage this primitive tradition. Covering face is a handicap in driving and other day to day activities. It must be banned and the violators may be punished. The same may be done in all Muslim and non Muslim countries through out the world.

I donít want to say here that I am against Islam. I want to further clarify that I am Muslim religiously. I am Pashtun racially, culturally, socially and I am a liberal, democrat etc politically or economically. I am Pakistani or Afghan or American by nationality. We must be clear in our identities. We may not confuse things. This way we can do justice with all and o none will invade the other.

The whole mess that we have is because of this confusion. The illiterate Taliban want to become rulers and judges and police and administrators which is not their job. They may be experts on the issues of how to say prayers or how to observe fasts, or what is monotheism, but they know nothing of the state craft, foreign relations, justice, finance, public administration, management, development, etc.
Similarly if an expert of Political science or Zoology or Medical sciences want to advise on the religious matters will be a mistake. Spiritual and mundane must be separated.

Some people think that the mere mentioning of Consultation/shura in Quran gives it a political system. I will once again repeat that Islam as an economic or political model never existed. This consultation is only a moral principle mentioned in Quran but cant be equivalent to a complete political system. It was never practiced. Do you think Umayyads or Abbasids or others used consultations in their political affairs? They were all dictators.

Some think that itís the student MUSLIM not the book Islam which is at fault. Islam is not at a fault but Muslims. This example that its fault of the student and not of teacher or book is wrong for Islam. Islam if taken as a book, or teacher equal to a complete system, then this is wrong and this is the main issue I am talking about here. Islam is not a system, its not a teacher, its not a book, Its only a book or teacher for beliefs, worship and morality nothing else. Islam is only a religion nothing more than that. Its not fault of Muslims as students , but its the fault of Muslims to consider Islam as a system. Muslims should read the book of Islam or should learn from the teacher of Islam only in religious affairs not in politics, economics, science, logic, philosophy, etc.

Islam is good as belief system, as worship system and as moral way of life. Because of Islam we may do good things. There is no harm in it not doing bad things because of Islam. If Islam keeps you away from harmful things its morality and I recognize it but beyond this no. Islam or Taliban as implementers of Islam as a system canít be judges, police, legislators etc at the same time.

Pakistan and Afghanistan are considered to be the best Muslim countries from Islamic point of view. Here Islam as a way of life is mostly practiced but these countries are the most corrupt and poor ones then what benefit islam as a system has given to the people of these countries. No one can tell me any ideal Islamic country in todayís world or in the whole history of Islam may be except upto the era of Hazrat Umar but at that time the development of the Islamic empire was not because of islam as a complete way of life but because of the wise secular policies of the rulers of that time. Islam was always there as a religion but not as a political or economic system.

West has separated religion from politics, economy, culture, society etc and thatís the secret of the development of the West. If Muslims want to be materially prosperous and developed like the West then they must follow the way they got the development other wise there is no way out. Religion can develop you spiritually but not economically or materially.

Laws must be re invented, created and changed according to the circumstances. This is another flaw in extremist Muslim approach that they consider the 1400 years old injunctions ( I donít call them laws as these are not systematic) permanent. They must know that the every thing permanent is this world is the CHANGE. This is the spirit of the reconstruction of the religious thought in Islam as proposed by Dr Iqbal.

My description of Islam only as a religion and not as a complete way of life does not mean that I am converted to another religion. I love Islam as a religion but not beyond that. Readers may not be short tempered as by reading these lines may jump to the conclusions that I am a heretic or like the traditional way of Mullas may issue the fatwas of Kufr immediately. I say that Islam was never a political or economic or cultural or social or scientific system and if readers think otherwise may prove me wrong with evidence and may not just issue decrees of infidelity.

I am not preaching any new religion here rather I am trying to separate religion from non religious and secular stuff. For me my religion is Islam which is confined to faith, worship and morality but for other spheres of my life I ll seek guidance from other systems and ideologies like Democracy and capitalism.

Few years of the Prophet or upto the era of Hazrat Umar and then few years more when Arab Muslims were ruling Spain first does not count much in the more than 1400 years of Islam. Second in all these governments only the religion of Islam was not applied but also the local Arab practices were too involved. The religion was kept limited to religious affairs and for day to day affairs other models and practices were adopted. Also at that time there was no the present day concept of democracy and such was not applicable.

Billions of people were attracted either by sword or by the religion as the people had no other option but to embrace Islam or they liked the religious beliefs, mode of worship or moral standards of the Arab Muslims of that time. At that time Arabs had the power and thatís why their religion or social system and culture also had the dominance. But that was Arab culture and society not the religion of Islam which was adopted by the conquered nations. And yes people like today were deceived by the slogan that Arab culture is equivalent to the religion and the people had to even adopt the language, dress and other social patterns of Arabs in the name of Islam. The religion of Islam may be learnt from Quran and Sunna but the religion. We may not mix it with other spheres of life.

Islam as a system in books is one thing and Islam in practice is another thing. You may find some aspects of politics, economics, culture etc in books with moral underpinning but practically you donít see it as the main purpose of Islam is being a religion to cater for the beliefs, worship and some personal morality of its believers not to make them politicians, scientists, economists, poets, writers, technicians, doctors, engineers etc . All these belong to secular or non religious aspects of life.

Once these Taliban and other terrorists and extremists understand this point, they wont kill innocent people for the implementation of the so called Sharia which has political, economic and cultural underpinnings, rather they will concentrate on the spiritual aspects as faith, worshipping and morality like other religions as Christianity, Buddhism, etc which only and only attend to religious affairs of its believers and donít indulge in politics etc. Islamic beliefs, modes of worship and morality may be presented better than other religions but the political and other aspects presented by Taliban are not better as these are not Islamic because of the simple reason that Islam is only a religion and not beyond that.

I never compare Islam to Democracy or other ideologies. My basic point is that Islam is religion and Democracy is a political system and both are two different things. For religions we have Islam, for politics we have democracy and for culture we have Pashtunwali. As already emphasized Islam never give us a complete system in politics, economics etc. Islam give us only few guidelines for politics, economics etc which have mainly moral underpinnings. Quran like Old testament and New Testament have some moral principles but not political or economic systems.

Some Muslims think that why we donít go for the divine Sharia and why we follow human made systems like Democracy. But Democracy is a better political system not a religion and which is neither divine nor perfect. Religion is divine but Shariah only guides you in beliefs, matters of worship and morality and few basic guidelines for other spheres of life from ethical point of view. Democracy can be evolved according to the needs of the people but Sharia may not be changed because its divine. We donít need changes in Sharia because it covers only beliefs, worship and morality which are permanent concepts as compared to political, economic or other issues.

Christians have made Christianity only a religion and you see how developed they are. We Muslims must follow others in their good things. Islam was never implemented as a complete political or economic system specially after Hazrat Umar because its not meant beyond a religion. The whole progress of Islam is in the sector of religion not other fields. In Spain it was a Muslim rule but it was not the rule of Islam. If you consider the dictators of Umayyads and Abbasids etc as your caliphs and heroes then it will be a big stigma on the face of Islam. They were just Arab rulers and used Islam for the expansion of their empire. Yes the religious Sufis and scholars attracted the people towards the religion not to the system of the hereditary dictators.

If we accept other cultures and sciences separately and donít mix it with religion of Islam then I have no need to discuss this issue further. This is the point which I want to explain. Accept other cultures and sciences and systems where they suit Muslims. Yes a Muslim as a Muslim by religion may not accept any thing against Islamic beliefs, Modes of worship and morality.

The Prophet of Islam gave a spiritual or religious system but he never trained people in politics, economics, sciences or technology. Muslims have problems in this world because they donít accept or implement the modern ideas of education and politics. For religious non compliance they will have spiritual problems or the punishment in the life after death but the worldly matters may not be amalgamated with the religious or otherworldly matters. If Muslims and Pashtuns maintain this balance in mundane and spiritual or religious aspects of life then they will attain the success what the developed world has achieved. Muslims can present the best model to the world by being successful being good Muslims spiritually and religiously and better human beings politically, economically culturally, technologically like other developed nations. They will be thus better than the West by being successful in both spiritual and mundane spheres of life.

شمله ور خراساني
07-22-2010, 08:33 PM
claiming that islam is just a religion like any other religion is disbelief. Instead or ranting, you should study more about Islam.

Palwasha
07-22-2010, 08:36 PM
Hmm.. so then, Pashtuns are just a race, like any other race..

Saifullah
07-22-2010, 08:46 PM
Nonsense...Islam is nothing like any other religion, you cannot say it is just a religion like all others....If you take part of Islam and reject it as a way of life, well thats not Islam that is your own religion...just like people invented their own religion christianity, judaism...

Islam has laid GUIDELINES....it doesnt write down every single aspect of life but guidelines which you can use your brain to know whether you can do this act or whether you cannot.

Quran tells us not to lie. So in our life as a shopkeeper, dont lie. Your life as a doctor dont lie, as a leader dont lie. So this is islam as a way of life, not just limited to praying or going to the mosque, but also in how we deal with one another. Its really a long discussion if we were to pick every aspect.

Islam contains all aspects of life..

When Muslims followed Islam it was far superior to the west and we were advanced....So why dont you take that example??? When muslims began to exclude islam from their life, they went down and down....we dont need to copy others when we have such a great book the Quran and our religion....yes in terms of non-religion related stuff like technology we can copy. But science is included in the religion because Allah created everything, therefore study of how the creation of Allah is, is part of faith....

The moment everybody starts following Islam all their problems will be solved and even the non-muslims will wish to copy this Islamic way of life...sad thing is we dont have any examples out there coz no muslim country has implemented this islamic model and shown the true islamic way of life...

Saifullah
07-22-2010, 08:55 PM
YouTube - Professor Keith Moore talking about Quran and embryology (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alsnOHR5b0M&feature=player_embedded#!)

If u read the Quran and see the ayats concerning embryology.....there are many scientific facts....Quran is far superior to anything, you want us to neglect this great book?? Yes anything that doesnt contradict our religion, we can follow, we can take....

How were the muslims not taught about politics, science and technology. They knew how to fight wars, they had tactics...They knew about medicines, they knew about how to rule, they introduced social security and many things...yet u claim muslims only were taught how to pray and fast...

Azmatullah
07-22-2010, 09:18 PM
Islam is the only true religion and it's chosen for us by Allah aza wa jall. It is not like any other religion, every other religon is false.

“...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” (5:3)

Roshina
07-22-2010, 10:18 PM
Hmm.. so then, Pashtuns are just a race, like any other race..

That is correct. Who ever says that Pashtuns are better than other races is just being racist and has no ways of backing up her/his claim. But Pukhtuns are a race, just like all other races of the world.

(I really mean "ethnicity," though, since the term "race" is often heavily and constantly debated in political and social studies.)

It's another thing, however, to say that each race/ethnicity and each religion has its own special qualities or uniqueness. But to say that one is better or worse than another is a huge lie and injustice to all other religions/races/ethnicities.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-22-2010, 10:29 PM
Comparing race and religion is like comparing apples and oranges.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 12:07 AM
As a Muslim you respect Islam and others.

But to be a Muslim you must consider all others as invalid.

You cant be a Muslim and also say Hinduism is also right.

That's one perspective, yes. However, that's not all. Some Muslims believe that all religions are equal, but they might choose a particular one for many different reasons, including the fact that their families happen to follow that religion (i.e., they were "born" Muslim/Christian/Hindu/etc.), they're just used to the idea of being Muslim, so they "choose" that one particular religion. They might acknowledge that what works for ONE individual or one group of people may not necessarily work for all others, but others would disagree.

You, guley, happen to be one of those who believe that none except Islam are valid, while some other Muslims might disagree.

Nonetheless, that idea isn't the same as "Islam is a religion just like all other religions of the world" (still admitting, though, of course, that each religion has its own special qualities and is "good" (and/or "bad") in their own ways).

شمله ور خراساني
07-23-2010, 12:13 AM
the ones who believe all religions are equal are clearly ignorant.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:15 AM
Qrratagai khore, what is your view of Hinduism vis a vis Islam?

Badlun
07-23-2010, 12:49 AM
PLease note that as I wrote in the first few lines of this essay that I consider Islam only a religion like any other religion but with its own sets of beliefs, modes of worship and moral values and ethical injunctions.

It means that I dont say that all religions are the same. It means that Islam is a religion like other religions being a religion but with its own set of beliefs, mode of worship and morality. Thus islam being a religion is different from other religions because it has its own injunctions for beliefs, worship and morality.

For Muslims their beliefs, worship and morality may be better than other religions. For me personally these are more convincing,simpler and easy to act upon. Thats why I am a Muslim by choice and I consider Islam a superior religion. As races are not the same similarly all religions are also not the same.

The issue is that Islam is not a complete system for life. Its just a religion not beyond that. If it is then I am waiting to see how Islam present complete political, economic , cultural, literary, scientific, technologoical, philosophical, social . pscychological and other systems.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 12:50 AM
@ AfghanLady: It's "kufar" according to whom or what?

Qrratagai khore, what is your view of Hinduism vis a vis Islam?

We've discussed this quite thoroughly before. It should still be in that thread -- I believe "Understanding Islam Better"?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:51 AM
We've discussed this quite thoroughly before. It should still be in that thread -- I believe "Understanding Islam Better"?

Could you kindly find it for me? I don't think we discussed it, but I may have forgotten. Thank you, in advance.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 12:52 AM
PLease note that as I wrote in the first few lines of this essay that I consider Islam only a religion like any other religion but with its own sets of beliefs, modes of worship and moral values and ethical injunctions.

It means that I dont say that all religions are the same. It means that Islam is a religion like other religions being a religion but with its own set of beliefs, mode of worship and morality. Thus islam being a religion is different from other religions because it has its own injunctions for beliefs, worship and morality.

For Muslims their beliefs, worship and morality may be better than other religions.For me personally these are more convincing,simpler and easy to act upon. Thats why I am a Muslim by choice and I consider Islam a superior religion. As races are not the same similarly all religions are also not the same.

The issue is that Islam is not a complete system for life. Its just a religion not beyond that. If it is then I am waiting to see how Islam present complete political, economic , cultural, literary, scientific, technologoical, philosophical, social . pscychological and other systems.

Exactly my point as well! Only, *I* don't believe in the superiority or inferiority of any religions over others.

All people believe their own religions are better than others, and we Muslims are no exceptions. However, facts might be different, since that's a belief and not necessarily a fact.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 12:54 AM
Could you kindly find it for me? I don't think we discussed it, but I may have forgotten. Thank you, in advance.

Unfortunately, the "Understanding Islam Better" thread has too many pages for me to look for it now. But I remember discussing it very well. It came after HinduPashtun asked a question, and I gave an answer that did not seem suitable to you and so we had to discuss it to make a clearer sense of it.

But, yeah, I've no intentions of repeating it since it's already there and would require looking for it, which I don't have time for at all right now :smile1:

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:55 AM
To refresh my memory, could you kindly jot a few lines. Sorry for the trouble.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 12:58 AM
No, 'cause it wouldn't be a few lines . . . buuut to me, ALL religions are equal, which means that none is/are above or below any others. They're not the same (as Osho has stated), as all have their own practices and beliefs, but they're all equal and all should this be equally respected and tolerated.

It's not just religions that I see as equals of each other: I see sects of religions as equals of each other as well (so long as none promote violence and force of any sort, through any means).

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 01:00 AM
Qrratagai if you believe that all religions are equals and you are a Muslim, then you have a contradiction in your belief. Would you not say so?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 01:30 AM
If I recall correctly, we never discussed Hinduism vs Islam. You managed to change the subject or did not respond at all.

Qrratagai, I am still not clear as to where you really stand with respect to Islam. Your views don't stem from the Quran. I would like us to take this opportunity to discuss this very topic: your views on Islam.

Please, don't ignore my request this time. I would like for us to discuss your stance on Islam.

As you know, I love to discuss challenging topics. I just want to know for myself what you really believe in and why. I get really confused by the answers you posts, at times.

:)

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 01:48 AM
@ MWMN, no, I would not say that I'm contradicting myself at all. I'm a Muslim, and I believe that all religions are equal. We need to understand that "equality" does not mean "being the same." I once gave an example of this ... when talking about how people claim that women and men shouldn't have equal rights because they're not the same.


How could all religions be equal. Please clarify further. Between a man and a woman it is clear how to justify "equality," there two different sexes involved. However, how do you define "equality" between two religions.

The example is very simple and goes like:

2+5 = 7.

Are both sides of the equation "the same"? No, they're not.

Are both sides of the equation "equal"? Yes, they are, and it's indicated by the equal sign.



You contradicted yourself by the end.


Similarly, ALL religions are equal; none are better or worse than others. If we are not allowed to judge Islam by the practices of the Muslims, we have no right to judge OTHER religions by the practices of others, either



You don't judge the religion by its people. You judge the religion based on its teachings. By saying they are equal you are saying that Islam is as good as the religion of Hinduism. By which, would bring another question: then why are you a Muslim, why have you "chosen" one over the other, if they are both equal?



So, yeah, I don't see what's so contradictory about saying that my religion is just as good as all other religions. If it's believed that MY religion has flaws and my argument is that "NO! That's not the religion's fault; it's all misinterpretations," then I need to understand -- as a human -- that there's nothing INHERENTLY bad in any religion; it's all what people (the followers of those religions) make them to be.



Are saying that Islam, itself, i.e. the Quran, has not claimed to be superior over all of the other religions and that it is the fault of those who have "interpreted" it? Is this what you are saying?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 01:52 AM
Na, we discussed it for a long, long time. You should look in the earlier pages of the "Understanding Islam Better" thread. It's certainly there.

And if you don't remember, that means you must not remember some of our other important discussions we've had! Which would actually HURT me, frankly speaking :O I mean, you know, we spend lots of time talking about it, so it'd be unpleasant to hear that they're not actually remembered . . . or taken seriously.



Not a problem at all. I'd love to discuss my views on Islam, along with evidence from the Quran and hadiths, but time at the moment does not permit me. I've to work on a thesis and have a research project to handle for the next few months. I'm also busy with applications for higher studies, and they're a lot of them . . . I need to get them done before school begins (exactly a month left for school to re-start) 'cause my schedule for the next year is packed, both semesters.

So I REALLY don't have time these days. I won't for the next several months, as you can tell. But when I do get a little free, I'll let you know... though I'm kinda writing on the side, and almost all of it has to do with Islam, so I can share whatever with you that I feel would be useful (and you individually; I can't share it with the public yet).

Besides, it's just a matter of a few years :D I'll be writing on Islam and my views on Islam (along with everything related to Pashtuns) for the rest of my life; it's gonna be my career, ka khairee! So just hang in there, and you'll get ALL your questions answered, wror gula :loveit: I promise.

I usually have a good memory, I remember, that you skipped all of my questions. :(

Well, I see you on the forums all the time, so I don't think it would hurt for you to discuss what your views actually are.

First off, do you believe that Allah exists?

ps
are you in the process of finishing your undergrad?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 01:55 AM
Qrratagai, Afghanlady is 100% correct on the fact that she is saying that Islam worships God differently. You must concede this much and explain how it is that it is equal?

Roshina
07-23-2010, 01:55 AM
^ I've already explained the word "equal" a couple of times. But here, one more time:

ALL religions are equal.

That means NO religion is better or worse than any other.

I explain that as well, quite in detail.

You don't understand this perspective, but that doesn't make it any less legitimate than the claim that one particular religion is better than all the others.

You also did not tell me HOW it's kufar to say that all religions are equal. Neither did you prove how it's contradictory to be a Muslim and believe (rather, KNOW for a fact) that all religions are equal.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 02:03 AM
Yes, you must believe in God, however, what I find in your belief, dearest sister, is that there are gaps.

For instance, which God do you believe in?


ps

May Allah give you success in your studies.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 02:28 AM
@ MWMN: How many gods are there according to Islam? Does Islam not promote the concept of only ONE God? 'Cause I believe in that one God that Islam talks about and promotes the belief in and of. That all-hearing, all-knowing, all-understanding, all-powerful God that all Muslims (regardless of sects) believe in.

I'm one of those people who WILL support a certain belief system just because it needs to be supported even if I don't believe in it myself. I find it ignorant of anyone to assume that just because someone supports a certain belief, she/he must be a believer of those beliefs. For instance, I'll stand up for any religion and any sect that needs to be defended when it's being attacked by a group of fools who lack all understanding of that religion or sect. Only those who I consider "dumb" would actually think that the ONLY reason someone would support a certain group of people is if that person is FROM that group. No, I don't have to be FROM them to help them or stand up for them; I just have to respect and understand them. And I'd expect that when I need their help, they'd stand up with and for me as well.

So if I support or explain atheist beliefs or Hindu beliefs or some others that are not associated with Islam, one should not ASSUME that I must be an atheist or a Hindu or whatever else I stand up for to defend.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 02:28 AM
Qrratugai where you good in Math? or was it your weak spot?(no offense, I just need to know to teach you how to use the word "Equal")


No offense taken at all, guley - 'cause Math was my strongest subject all throughout high school and college. It still is when I do take it. It's one of those subjects I used to take to bring up my GPA when it'd go down, lol. And I mean higher levels of math, not pre-calculus or trig or algebra, lol. Although my GPA is now almost perfect, I still WOULD willingly take a math class if it ever drops.

But, by the way, I didn't say they're *equal to each other*. I said they're equal. Simple as that. You're adding in the part "to each other" (by saying that Hinduism = religion = Islam = Christianity = etc.). Not only would that be very dumb and illiterate of me to say, it's also absolutely wrong -- and proven wrong, too. It can be proved wrong because everyone on earth knows that all religions are NOT the same, all religions are NOT equal to each other.

Nevertheless, I used a simple mathematical concept to explain the concept of equality. Did you get that? Because you seem to be one of those people who beleive that "equality" = "sameness" ... and I'm one of those who COMPLETELY disagree.

Now, guley, I never shy from admitting I've made a mistake when I do make it, and I, like any human, tend to make quite a few of them and quite often. However, this is not one of those times: I believe that ALL religions are equal, and they ALL deserve equal respect, equal attention, equal tolerance, and equal appreciation; none are above or below any others. There are absolutely no exceptions. You'd have to PROVE that there are exceptions, if you believe there are, and I mean prove it in a way that non-Muslims would be able to understand and agree with you on... 'cause when you PROVE something as correct or right, then no one can dare to disagree with it, since it'd become a fact then.

Khan Gul
07-23-2010, 02:29 AM
^ I've already explained the word "equal" a couple of times. But here, one more time:

ALL religions are equal.



Khwarzey, if you mean by saying that "all religions are equal" because at certain point in time they originated from the same source, Allah, and later on its followers distorted its true message then I agree with you.
Also, if you mean that all religions in a certain way are equal that they all advocate morality and plays important role in restoring the broken wholeness of souls then I certainly agree with you.
If you think that all religions offer an emotional lightness of approach to all questions of life, a supreme common sense of feeling then I agree with you.
If you think that all religions fill its followers with promise, help them in identifying that organic coherence of the mind and give them direction then I also agree with you.
However, if you think that the belief system of all other religions is equal to the monotheism of Islam, then I disagree with you.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 02:36 AM
Khwarzey, if you mean by saying that "all religions are equal" because at certain point in time they originated from the same source, Allah, and later on its followers distorted its true message then I agree with you.
Also, if you mean that all religions in a certain way are equal that they all advocate morality and plays important role in restoring the broken wholeness of souls then I certainly agree with you.
If you think that all religions offer an emotional lightness of approach to all questions of life, a supreme common sense of feeling then I agree with you.
If you think that all religions fill its followers with promise, help them in identifying that organic coherence of the mind and give them direction then I also agree with you.

YES!! That's all what I mean! Along with that all are equal in terms of ... deserving of equal respect, tolerance, appreciation, etc.


However, if you think that the belief system of all other religions is equal to the monotheism of Islam, then I disagree with you.

Absolutely not, since it's an incorrect statement that Islam and all other religions promote the same concept of monotheism or even of God. That's why I made sure to say (over and over, lol) that all religions are *not the same*, since their practices and beliefs are not the same.

All right. Good that someone out there got my point! Now, I can rest peacefully for a while, lol. :smile1:

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 02:45 AM
Dearest sister, Qrratagai, then this is the flaw in your logic. Islam's monotheistic teachings is the base of Islam. This alone will crush any idea that Hinduism and Islam are equal or have "equality."

Any religion or "ethics" teaches morality. However, the sole purpose for the coming of any new religion was to teach and revive monotheism. Islam, the final teaching and has preserved the monotheist teaching PERFECTLY. Now to say that is fine to be a Hindu for it has "equality" to Islam is TOTALLY erroneous.

Therefore, Islam and Hinduism might have commonalities in that they both have moral teachings, however, based on the sole way to find God is to know His Oneness, this alone stands in the way of Hinduism to ever be "equal" to Islam.

Hence, to say that it is okay to be a Hindu is wrong.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 02:48 AM
Afghanlady, sorry, I did not copy you, promise. We just think alike.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 02:56 AM
Since Khan Gul did an excellent job explaining what it means that all religions are equal (and they are), I don't need to go on any further.

Since I've also said EVERYTHING about this, I don't think I need to say anything more; every single question being asked right now has been answered already in my previous posts. I don't like going in circles, especially when I've already explained what it means that all religions are equal. Now it's just a matter of your disagreeing with the idea of many different things being equal to each other IN SPITE of being different. That, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

But again, anyone who still doesn't get it, please refer to Khan Gul Lala's post. It's short and to the point, unlike mine.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 03:04 AM
Qrratagai sister, if we talk about religion in general then they all teach morality. But to say that you can be a Christian or a Hindu or a Sikh or a Muslim is all fine is WRONG.

Let me illustrate:

In Christianity--->Concept of God: Trinity=Jesus=Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost
In Islam---> Jesus is a Prophet; Allah is God.

Hinduism--->Multiple Gods, of which Jesus is not one of them.
Christianity--->Only Jesus is God.

Islam---There is only One God: Allah

That is why I asked you which God do you believe in.

So, for you to say that it is fine to follow any religion, then you are preaching multiple gods. Also, you are going directly AGAINST the commandment of the Quran to invite people towards the ONE TRUE GOD.

Again, they are not equal.

BTW, Khan Gul, does not agree with you, nor do you agree with him based on your previous posts.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 03:05 AM
Khan Gul disagreed with you on the same thing me and Momin are here trying to teach you.


We keep posting the same thing without knowing before hand!

abubaker
07-23-2010, 09:07 AM
^ I've already explained the word "equal" a couple of times. But here, one more time:

ALL religions are equal.

That means NO religion is better or worse than any other.

I explain that as well, quite in detail.

You don't understand this perspective, but that doesn't make it any less legitimate than the claim that one particular religion is better than all the others.

You also did not tell me HOW it's kufar to say that all religions are equal. Neither did you prove how it's contradictory to be a Muslim and believe (rather, KNOW for a fact) that all religions are equal.


so if Hinduism and Islam are equal ''which they are not'' then why would Allah azawajal send a new set of rules and guidelines for the human beings to follow why send the quran? why not let people follow Hinduism? why send another religion that is not better then the one already practices by people for thousands of years.

eusuphxai
07-23-2010, 09:31 AM
I have questions qratugai :

What is purpose of religion (if any)? once you answer this then I will be able to ask you another question, related to this.

Musafira
07-23-2010, 09:42 AM
.

As for the statement "Islam is a religion just like any other religion." I think that is false because ALL religions are unique.

I think most everyone in the world is raised with the notion that their religion (that usually they are BORN into) is the correct and superior one. If all Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims. etc. would respect others religion and not look down on others for having different beliefs our world would probably be a much better place.

Palwasha
07-23-2010, 10:02 AM
That is correct. Who ever says that Pashtuns are better than other races is just being racist and has no ways of backing up her/his claim. But Pukhtuns are a race, just like all other races of the world.

Of course, I absolutely agree. But my statement was trying to make a point that we are a unique race, we are different to other nations, we're not superior or inferior, but we are different.

Now with Islam, we too are unique to the rest of the World. Every religion deserves respect, as our beloved Prophet (PBUH) taught. However, one can't accept Islam and then see other religions to be valid, it's a complete contradiction.

Please dont be the next Shahrukh Khan

LOL! Good ol' SK, ever the joker, keeps the Qur'an next to his Hindu God's.:lal18:

Roshina
07-23-2010, 10:46 AM
I have questions qratugai :

What is purpose of religion (if any)? once you answer this then I will be able to ask you another question, related to this.

There are many purposes of religions, one of which is to better people or (supposedly) to teach people morality. Sadly, not all people can be moral without religion, or so the argument goes. So religion is there for those who need it to keep them sane and "moral" and to give them a reason to keep on living, to do good, to avoid the bad, and so on.

My OWN purposes for believing in religion, however, may not be the same as those of other people's. And they'd require lengthy explanations, which I'm not willing to do right now.

But in general, religions are SUPPOSED to make people good humans -- or, in the case of certain ones, to help them attain heaven.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 10:54 AM
you said religions are equal. which is not true, we can respect Hinduism but we can not say its equal. Hinduism and Islam might be similar but not equal. Similarity and equal are 2 different things, since you were supposedly good in math, I am sure you know the difference between something being similar and equal.

Hinduism and Islam are not equal nor are all Religions equal. Many are similar though.

Again, you KEEP saying they're not "equal" but you're under the common misconception that in order to be equal, they must be the same or similar. Again, this is untrue, as explained by my logic of how 2 + 5 = 7 (they're EQUAL but the two sides of the equation ("2+5" and "7") are not the same.

In order to be equal or demand equal respect and appreciation and tolerance, you don't have to be the same or have even similar beliefs.

If a certain religion or religious group of people are endangered, I as a human WILL stand up for them and support them and fight for their right to exist -- just as I'd fight for Islam's and Muslims' right to exist. This make all religions equal (again and again, in value).

BUT if I believed that Islam is SUPERIOR to all other religions, I wouldn't fight for others religions' right to exist or be respected or appreciated or tolerated AS equally as Islam's right to be respected, tolerated, and appreciated, because I'd actually be happy thinking, "YES! My religion wins! This is a chance for my religion to rule the world and be dominant, since it's superior to all others."

Hence, I cannot EVER view ANY religion as better than or worse than any other religion.


Stop assuming and changing the topic. you made a claim defend it.

Changing the topic? I've been perfectly on topic AND I've defended EVERY claim I've made. That claim is, NO religion is better or worse than any other; ALL are equal and hence deserve equal respect from all people.

That is not true. Its false and it contradicts Islam.

Religions are similar not equal. I guess me and Momin have a long way to go to teach you the difference between similarities and equality.

Don't assume you know better or more than someone else. It lowers your value as a person in my opinion, guley.


Yes Hinduism and Islam both teach respect, honesty etc.
but that does not make them equal.

Xsquare is not equal to Xcube.

Again: All religions are equal in value, and none are better or worse than any other; but they do not teach the same things or concepts or beliefs.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:04 AM
Khan Gul disagreed with you on the same thing me and Momin are here trying to teach you.

Lemme quote Khan Gul here on the parts I absolutely agree with him on and he clearly agrees with me on:

Also, if you mean that all religions in a certain way are equal that they all advocate morality and plays important role in restoring the broken wholeness of souls then I certainly agree with you.
If you think that all religions offer an emotional lightness of approach to all questions of life, a supreme common sense of feeling then I agree with you.
If you think that all religions fill its followers with promise, help them in identifying that organic coherence of the mind and give them direction then I also agree with you.

Those points, EXACTLY what I mean as well.

Then over here:

However, if you think that the belief system of all other religions is equal to the monotheism of Islam, then I disagree with you.

This was where I agreed with him on that, no, all religions do NOT teach the same things, especially the concept of monotheism of Islam. And in pretty much every single post, I've been saying this as well. Religions are not the SAME; but they're equal and deserve equal respect and tolerance and so on.


Re-read Momins post again for Gods sake. Thanks. :)

I would, if it proved to me how a certain religion deserves MORE respect or tolerance than ANOTHER religion. My argument has been from the very beginning that ALL religions are equal and hence deserve equal respect. If this is untrue, someone needs to show me how. You're both going on about how Islam teaches something different than Hinduism and all other religions or that you can't be a Hindu and a Muslim and a Christian all at the same time. But I never said they teach the same things, so there's no point for you to explain this.

You CAN, though, be a Muslim and stand by your Hindu friend's side when she/he is being attacked for the sole purpose of being a Hindu (a non-Muslim). You'll stand by her side because you'll say that she has every right to practice her religion, just as I -- a Muslim -- have MY right to practice my beliefs. And that no religion is better than any other and have equal right to exist and be supported and fought in defense for.

dont just try to change the topic and run away.

Oh wow. That's very low of you to think -- that someone would "run away" from a certain discussion. I've been on PF and many other forums for the past 5 - 6 years of my life, and I don't run away from anything. That's not Qrratugai-like. You may, however, speak for yourself, since you and Momin are going in circles, and NO one is showing me what makes one religion better than another and speaking from an unbiased perspective. This is what I need someone to prove to me. Religions WILL remain of equal value in my mind UNTIL someone proves me wrong -- that, no, Hinduism is of a lesser value than, say, Christianity or Islam; or that Islam is of more value than all other religions.

If you can't back your claim up that all religions are NOT equal in value, then don't make the claim to begin with.

However, when you REFUSE to understand something (in this case, my argument that ALL religions are equal in value), then it's impossible to hold a discussion with you or anyone like you.


you made a claim, back it up please. If you cant and if you were wrong say so. you being a mod does not mean you cant be wrong guley!

I've made claims, and I've defended each one. It's unlike me to make baseless claims. You asked me to explain what it means to be equal, and I explained. However, YOU put words in my mouth by claiming that I am saying that ALL religions are equal to each other, which I don't believe and never have said. There's a HUGE difference between being equal to something else and equal with something else.

Don't bring the moderator thing into it, lol. I mean, whoa, seriously?

But you have to PROVE me wrong for me to think that I MAY be wrong.

Prove me wrong by proving to me how a certain religion is of more important value *factually* just because, while all others are of lesser value.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:18 AM
Qrratagai khore jana,

why are you a Muslim? If all religions are equal, then why do you make a distinction?

You are not practicing what you are preaching. :)

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:21 AM
Of course, I absolutely agree. But my statement was trying to make a point that we are a unique race, we are different to other nations, we're not superior or inferior, but we are different.

Now with Islam, we too are unique to the rest of the World. Every religion deserves respect, as our beloved Prophet (PBUH) taught. However, one can't accept Islam and then see other religions to be valid, it's a complete contradiction.


Ahhh, but "valid" is not the same as "equal." You don't have to accept another religion as valid or authentic or true in order to see it as of equal value as all other religions. MOST humans are raised in a way that promotes them to believe that theirs are of more value than all other religions; I, though, don't believe that.

It's not like, okay ALL religions are equal and teach the same things so people go "eenie, meenie, minee mo," and whichever the last word falls on, they go, "Okay! Islam it is!" No, you're either born into a family with a certain religious/belief system or then you grow to learn about it to reject or accept it.

Obviously, if all were the same, it wouldn't matter what you believed. But some teach one thing about God, others teach another thing; some teach one thing about life after death, and others teach something else; etc., etc.

These differences in teachings, however, do NOT make them any less important or equal in value than all the other religions of the world. So you go, okay, I accept only Islam as a valid, authentic, acceptable religion (for myself and I'd LOVE it for the entire world as well, but that's realistically impossible) because that's what my Holy Book teaches me, but that doesn't mean it's more important or better than all other religions. The others are JUST as important -- maybe not to me personally, since I don't follow them, but to those who DO follow them.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:25 AM
Qrratagai khore jana,

why are you a Muslim? If all religions are equal, then why do you make a distinction?

You are not practicing what you are preaching. :)

Do I have to follow every single religion in order to accept all as deserving of equal respect, tolerance, appreciation, and value? I don't think so. I'm a Muslim, but that doesn't mean my religious values are better than all non-Muslims' religious values.

It's possible that I find the concept of monotheism of Islam more reasonable, or that I prefer some other aspects or teachings of Islam to those of other religions. But that STILL doesn't make Islam better than other religions to me. It remains of equal importance and respect as all other religions.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Dearest Qrratagai khore,

I think you have to start illustrating what you want to say by bringing examples from Islam or Hinduism or any other religion and compare them with each other. You don't seem to comprehend the purpose for religion.

Here let me ask you a question: If someone wishes to convert to Hinduism from Islam what would you tell them?

eusuphxai
07-23-2010, 11:30 AM
When you are willing to do the lengthy explanation I will ask my other question. Because when you say something about religion you represent your "version" of it.

Secondly you said religion is for people to teach morality. Where do people, who don't believe in religion, learn morality from?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Do I have to follow every single religion in order to accept all as deserving of equal respect, tolerance, appreciation, and value? I don't think so. I'm a Muslim, but that doesn't mean my religious values are better than all non-Muslims' religious values.

It's possible that I find the concept of monotheism of Islam more reasonable, or that I prefer some other aspects or teachings of Islam to those of other religions. But that STILL doesn't make Islam better than other religions to me. It remains of equal importance and respect as all other religions.

You have just shot down everything you have said in this thread.

You find the concept of monotheism more reasonable? You have just explicitly hinted that there is one religion that is right. Therefore, the reason why you don't want to be a Hindu is because of the concept of God and vice versa for a Hindu.

Leave religion teachings aside, let us stick only to the concept of God.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Therefore, Islam and Hinduism might have commonalities in that they both have moral teachings, however, based on the sole way to find God is to know His Oneness, this alone stands in the way of Hinduism to ever be "equal" to Islam.

So that means you believe that the concept of monotheism is worth more, or is better, than the Hindu concept of God, or of polytheism. See, THIS, I don't agree with. We have different beliefs about God, and for someone to believe that MY beliefs are better than everyone else's is narrow-minded and, in my opinion, intolerant and unacceptable.

Just because we don't understand the beliefs of other people, or just because we don't follow them, or just because we follow our own does not make OUR beliefs better than theirs.

Then you believe that they're of unequal value just because they teach different things and the ones you follow are "better." I coudln't live with that, and it's not something I believe.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:33 AM
You find the concept of monotheism more reasonable? You have explicitly hinted that there is one religion that is right.

Leave religion teachings aside, let us stick only to the concept of God.

This discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with God.

It's all about the equal value of ALL religions despite their differences.

Like I said, I need someone to prove me wrong that all religions are NOT of equal value. Someone prove to me how Islam's value is more than another religion's -- and I need the opinion of an unbiased mind, NOT of someone who goes, "I'm a Muslim, so Islam is better than all other religions. And here's why: God doesn't approve of polytheism."

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:35 AM
So that means you believe that the concept of monotheism is worth more, or is better, than the Hindu concept of God, or of polytheism. See, THIS, I don't agree with. We have different beliefs about God, and for someone to believe that MY beliefs are better than everyone else's is narrow-minded and, in my opinion, intolerant and unacceptable.

Just because we don't understand the beliefs of other people, or just because we don't follow them, or just because we follow our own does not make OUR beliefs better than theirs.

Then you believe that they're of unequal value just because they teach different things and the ones you follow are "better." I coudln't live with that, and it's not something I believe.

What you fail to realize is that you keep contradicting yourself.

Let us take your argument that I don't Hinduism and you understand Hinduism.

By the fact that you are a Muslim proves that Hinduism cannot be right.

Do you see the flaw in your logic when you are arguing that all religions are "equal."

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:38 AM
You have just shot down everything you have said in this thread.

You find the concept of monotheism more reasonable? You have just explicitly hinted that there is one religion that is right. Therefore, the reason why you don't want to be a Hindu is because of the concept of God and vice versa for a Hindu.


You should read my post carefully. While I may be a Muslim and find certain concepts of Islam more reasonable than other religions', you should not assume that I find it "right" just because I find it more reasonable than others. If *I* find it more reasonable, it means others must find their OWN religions or religious values more reasonable, too. Would that make THEIR religions correct and mine false? No. It'd just mean they don't find mine reasonable enough to accept them, just as I don't find theirs reasonable enough to accept them.

I'd said (note the boldened words):


It's possible that I find the concept of monotheism of Islam more reasonable, or that I prefer some other aspects or teachings of Islam to those of other religions. But that STILL doesn't make Islam better than other religions to me. It remains of equal importance and respect as all other religions.

Musafira
07-23-2010, 11:39 AM
If one did not believe in the superiority of his or her religion then why would they continue to adhere to it and not leave it for another? What would motivate someone to spread his or her religion and convert others if they did not believe in the superiority of it?

Doesn't almost every Muslim, Christian, Jew etc think that what they are following is the RIGHT path?

Isn't believing in that correctness part of what makes you an adherent to that particular faith?

By keeping in mind that almost every faith is taught to believe they are the only ones correct I have learned to respect other faiths even though I may not agree with them :) I can respect something but still disagree with it.


It might be incorrect/wrong for any of us to think our particular, race, religion, culture, language or whatever is superior but it isn't that very belief in superiority what keeps that thing alive and somewhat pure ?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:39 AM
This discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with God.

It's all about the equal value of ALL religions despite their differences.

Like I said, I need someone to prove me wrong that all religions are NOT of equal value. Someone prove to me how Islam's value is more than another religion's -- and I need the opinion of an unbiased mind, NOT of someone who goes, "I'm a Muslim, so Islam is better than all other religions. And here's why: God doesn't approve of polytheism."

Qrratagai khore, please leave accusations aside. I am not a Muslim because I was born a Muslim.

What is the purpose of religion? I don't think you have grasped this. If you had you would not be going around and saying that ALL religions are equal.

And, by you stating that it is NOT about the concept of God then you are in deep waters.

I don't think you understand religion. I just think you have a good heart and you want everyone to be happy. Sorry, life does not work like that. I am pretty sure that not everyone can get a Ph.D. just because they whine and cry.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:41 AM
What you fail to realize is that you keep contradicting yourself.

Let us take your argument that I don't Hinduism and you understand Hinduism.

By the fact that you are a Muslim proves that Hinduism cannot be right.

Do you see the flaw in your logic when you are arguing that all religions are "equal."

LOL :P MWMN wrora, please answer this question of mine:

Does a religion's being right (a belief every person of any religion holds about her/his own religion) make it of more importance than other religions? Does a religion become superior to all others just because its followers believe it's right?

If your answer is yes, then THIS is where we disagree. And nothing can be done about this, since it can't be proven by any means.

My accepting Islam as a religion for myself does not make other religions any less important than or less equal to Islam. They don't have the same teachings, but they don't have to have the same teachings in order to be respected equally or hold equal value.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:42 AM
If one did not believe in the superiority of his or her religion then why would they continue to adhere to it and not leave it for another? What would motivate someone to spread his or her religion and convert others if they did not believe in the superiority of it?

Doesn't almost every Muslim, Christian, Jew etc think that what they are following is the RIGHT path?

Isn't believing in that correctness part of what makes you an adherent to that particular faith?

By keeping in mind that almost every faith is taught to believe they are the only ones correct I have learned to respect other faiths even though I may not agree with them :) I can respect something but still disagree with it.

This post hit the nail on the head.

It is impossible that you be part of two religions at the same time.

Now, the job is to deal with why Islam claims to have completed religion.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:44 AM
If one did not believe in the superiority of his or her religion then why would they continue to adhere to it and not leave it for another? What would motivate someone to spread his or her religion and convert others if they did not believe in the superiority of it?

Doesn't almost every Muslim, Christian, Jew etc think that what they are following is the RIGHT path?

Isn't believing in that correctness part of what makes you an adherent to that particular faith?

By keeping in mind that almost every faith is taught to believe they are the only ones correct I have learned to respect other faiths even though I may not agree with them :) I can respect something but still disagree with it.

Correct. ALL people believe their own religions are superior to all others. Muslims are no exception.

But that's a belief, not a fact. Just because a Christian believes his religion is superior to all others doesn't make Christianity INDEED a superior religion. On the same token, just because a Muslim believes his religion is superior to all others doesn't make Islam INDEED a superior religion.

But my argument isn't that something is more correct than something else.

My argument is instead that just because we believe it's correct doesn't give it any MORE value or respect or appreciation than all other religions.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:45 AM
LOL :P MWMN wrora, please answer this question of mine:

Does a religion's being right (a belief every person of any religion holds about her/his own religion) make it of more importance than other religions? Does a religion become superior to all others just because its followers believe it's right?

If your answer is yes, then THIS is where we disagree. And nothing can be done about this, since it can't be proven by any means.

My accepting Islam as a religion for myself does not make other religions any less important than or less equal to Islam. They don't have the same teachings, but they don't have to have the same teachings in order to be respected equally or hold equal value.

Forget about the people, the Quran itself says it. Sister, please don't take me for an idiot.

Qrratagai, what concept of Hinduism do you follow in your daily life? What concept of Christianity do you follow in your daily life. Please answer this honestly.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:47 AM
My argument is instead that just because we believe it's correct doesn't give it any MORE value or respect or appreciation than all other religions.

It is very very very clear you have not studied religions. Sorry to say. The people don't claim superiority the books do.

Sister, I think you are a nice person but you are totally misguided.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 11:47 AM
If you are muslim, u follow the Quran. So just read it and you find many ayats which go against wat u are proclaiming

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:48 AM
Qrratagai khore, please leave accusations aside. I am not a Muslim because I was born a Muslim.

I've never said that you are a Muslim because you were born Muslim. I said, instead, that most people follow the religion they were born into, and others grow to learn about a certain religion (or religions) to accept or reject them. You may fall into the latter category of people -- those who accept or reject a certain belief system after studying it.

Nonetheless, that doesn't take away the fact that all religions hold equal importance and deserve equal respect and tolerance. You can be a Muslim and reject Hinduism and all other non-Islamic religions while STILL believing that all other religions have the same right to exist that Islam does.

This is pretty much the most simple way I can put it in. If you STILL don't grasp this, then ... well, maybe you'll understand it with time.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 11:50 AM
We are told by the Quran to respect other peoples faith and not to make fun of their Gods. TRUE

But does that mean we accept their religion being equal as ours? Does it mean all religions are the same. That is something unrelated.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:50 AM
It is very very very clear you have not studied religions. Sorry to say. The people don't claim superiority the books do.

Sister, I think you are a nice person but you are totally misguided.

And that's perfectly fine with me, since it's your opinion about me and not necessarily a fact. I'm willing to live with it peacefully.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:51 AM
I've never said that you are a Muslim because you were born Muslim. I said, instead, that most people follow the religion they were born into, and others grow to learn about a certain religion (or religions) to accept or reject them. You may fall into the latter category of people -- those who accept or reject a certain belief system after studying it.

Nonetheless, that doesn't take away the fact that all religions hold equal importance and deserve equal respect and tolerance. You can be a Muslim and reject Hinduism and all other non-Islamic religions while STILL believing that all other religions have the same right to exist that Islam does.

This is pretty much the most simple way I can put it in. If you STILL don't grasp this, then ... well, maybe you'll understand it with time.

Please don't insult me. I am much much much older than you. My specialization is Islamic Shariah and Comparative Study of Religions.

You are have no clue what you are saying.

What you are claiming that holds no ground.

The fact that you are a Muslim is proof enough you are a living contradiction to what you are preaching.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:52 AM
But does that mean we accept their religion being equal as ours? Does it mean all religions are the same. That is something unrelated.

Umm... Saifullah bro, I suggest you read some of our posts in this thread. NO one has said that all religions are the same.

I've said over and over that they're equal (in value, in merit; e.g., they all deserve equal respect from all people, and no one religion deserves more respect or tolerance than others, so long as no violence is involved), BUT in order to be equal, they don't have to be the same.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:53 AM
We are told by the Quran to respect other peoples faith and not to make fun of their Gods. TRUE

But does that mean we accept their religion being equal as ours? Does it mean all religions are the same. That is something unrelated.

This has to be the summary of everything we have been talking about.

Beautiful said. Masha Allah.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Qrratagai jaana,

The fact that you are a Muslim proves that religion are not the same nor are they equal.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Please don't insult me. I am much much much older than you. My specialization is Islamic Shariah and Comparative Study of Religions.

You are have no clue what you are saying.

You are claiming that holds no ground.

The fact that you are a Muslim is proof enough you are a living contradiction to what you are preaching.

I'm sorry you feel insulted. That was not my intention.

I meant that you'll eventually realize (hopefully) that all religions deserve equal respect, etc. You can believe your religion is correct, that's fine, and I'm not against that. You believe that obviously when you follow it; but that doesn't make all the other religions any less important than your own.

And you're studying Islam, but so am I, bro! I deal with, among other things, Islamic law (mostly focusing on non-Muslims' and minorities' rights in Islam) and classical and contemporary interpretations of Islam. These two are my main specializations within Islamic Studies.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 12:00 PM
Qrat...why are you confusing issues??

On a table you have two glasses one full till the top with water...the other full with poison till the top...you can say look both are equal they are full till the top...but what it contains is the question!

Now religions are called religions...whether it islam, judaism or christianity.....you can say they are 'similar' in that all of these are called religions, all of them are beliefs...thats obvious, that isnt rocket science, which is why it doesnt even need a debate.

But what is the belief of Chrisitianity...what is the content? That is what is nonsense and can easily be refuted by a person with a brain. I dont promote being born a muslim, you have to work to become a true muslim, you have to understand why are we a muslim. I accept that.

Respecting religions has nothing to do with it being equal. We do not have to consider christianity as equals to Islam, however we can still respect it by not swearing at their Gods and not just arguing with them by insults, but through discussion.

I respect other religions but i definately believe those religions to be inferior to Islam, which is why i am a muslim...How can religions without any substance be treated on the same level as Islam which is perfect...? You cannot relate respect to what you are claiming, try to understand that

spogmai shaglay
07-23-2010, 12:01 PM
Qrratugai... u clearly stated that all religions are not same..(correct me if i am wrong)....and u also mentioned that all religions are equal.....

all religions are not same agreeed but whether all religions are equal or not is a perception of an individual....the statement could be correct if u are talking about secularism,

also it can be said that all religions should be seen as equal in terms of tolerance, respect, etc....which u see them as...

but just giving a statement that all religion are equal will 100% be misinterpreted....

perception of equality here is in terms of respect to be given to all religions...which u give is what i have come to understand.....am i right????

i think its just wrong choice of words or rather its not put correctly.......used which is making it more complicated to understand each other's views...

(i also agree to the fact the Qrratugai has got a far greater command on english language than i do)

and talking about comparing Islam and other religions interms of aspects of morality and equality is a different story all togther...Idol worship is just one aspect where Islam and Hinduism or any other religion differ... there are many many more aspects which make them different and i too agree that it makes Islam religion superior to any other religion...

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:01 PM
I'm sorry you feel insulted. That was not my intention.

I meant that you'll eventually realize (hopefully) that all religions deserve equal respect, etc. You can believe your religion is correct, that's fine, and I'm not against that. You believe that obviously when you follow it; but that doesn't make all the other religions any less important than your own.

And you're studying Islam, but so am I, bro! I deal with, among other things, Islamic law (mostly focusing on non-Muslims' and minorities' rights in Islam) and classical and contemporary interpretations of Islam. These two are my main specializations within Islamic Studies.

My beloved sister,

what you are not grasping is that I am not the one to insult other religions. You should know me by now that I am in fore-front of defending anyone. However, to claim that all religions hold the same value in right out wrong. The Quran rejects this concept.

Sister, the fact that you call yourself a Muslim is clear proof that religions are not equal. If religions were equal then you should not call yourself a Muslim. You can't pick and choose and call yourself a Muslim. You should call yourself something different. A Muslim is one who says:

La ilaha illallahu muhammadur rasuluallah.

This means that you follow everything Allah says in the Quran and the sunnah of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

The fact that you call yourself a Muslim is enough proof that you do not believe in what you are preaching. Otherwise, you would not call yourself a Muslim.

Let us put it this way: I would take you more seriously if you stopped calling yourself a Muslim. This would prove to me that you do believe that ALL religions are equal.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 12:02 PM
Qrratagai jaana,

The fact that you are a Muslim proves that religion are not the same nor are they equal.

~sighs~ Good God, we're going around in circles and going nowhere. This is a headache.

Equal in what? Equal to each other? If so, one doens't have to be a genius to know that that's not true; it's a big lie.

But by equal, I've said over and over and am clearly not tired of repeating it, I mean that ALL religions are of equal value and merit; ALL deserve equal respect and equal right to existence and appreciation and tolerance and so forth.

If one can't realize the above statement, it'll just have to take time. Because, in all honesty, I find this discussion as nugatory as it could get (since people are saying the same thing, giving the same claim over and over without proving it) -- especially when I've a ton of other, more important things to be doing right now than to be talking to people who believe that just because Islam is the correct religion, it means all other religions don't have equal right to exist or be appreciated or respected. --> This is the definition of "equal" that I've given in every post so far.

All newcomers are requested to read the thread before asking more questions because everyone's ssaying the same thing (i.e., equal = sameness).

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 12:04 PM
Qratugai seems to be equating respect to meaning all things are equal. Just because i tolerate others, respect their right to believe in what they want (surah al kafirun) and dont insult their religion/God, does not in any way mean all religions are equal.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 12:07 PM
Islam is just a religion like any other is the title of this topic. That in itself is such a vague statement. I think you need to be more simple and less poetic...

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:08 PM
Qratugai seems to be equating respect to meaning all things are equal. Just because i tolerate others, respect their right to believe in what they want (surah al kafirun) and dont insult their religion/God, does not in any way mean all religions are equal.

I agree with you. I think this is what she is doing. Well, at least by the end we will see for Qrratagai is not keeping one stance though.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:09 PM
~sighs~ Good God, we're going around in circles and going nowhere. This is a headache.

Equal in what? Equal to each other? If so, one doens't have to be a genius to know that that's not true; it's a big lie.

But by equal, I've said over and over and am clearly not tired of repeating it, I mean that ALL religions are of equal value and merit; ALL deserve equal respect and equal right to existence and appreciation and tolerance and so forth.

If one can't realize the above statement, it'll just have to take time. Because, in all honesty, I find this discussion as nugatory as it could get (since people are saying the same thing, giving the same claim over and over without proving it) -- especially when I've a ton of other, more important things to be doing right now than to be talking to people who believe that just because Islam is the correct religion, it means all other religions don't have equal right to exist or be appreciated or respected. --> This is the definition of "equal" that I've given in every post so far.

All newcomers are requested to read the thread before asking more questions because everyone's ssaying the same thing (i.e., equal = sameness).

Respect is one thing, which by the way ONLY Islam teaches towards other religions; to be equal, though, is a different issue. They are not the same.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 12:12 PM
~sighs~ Good God, we're going around in circles and going nowhere. This is a headache.

Equal in what? Equal to each other? If so, one doens't have to be a genius to know that that's not true; it's a big lie.

But by equal, I've said over and over and am clearly not tired of repeating it, I mean that ALL religions are of equal value and merit; ALL deserve equal respect and equal right to existence and appreciation and tolerance and so forth.

If one can't realize the above statement, it'll just have to take time. Because, in all honesty, I find this discussion as nugatory as it could get (since people are saying the same thing, giving the same claim over and over without proving it) -- especially when I've a ton of other, more important things to be doing right now than to be talking to people who believe that just because Islam is the correct religion, it means all other religions don't have equal right to exist or be appreciated or respected. --> This is the definition of "equal" that I've given in every post so far.

All newcomers are requested to read the thread before asking more questions because everyone's ssaying the same thing (i.e., equal = sameness).

Please re read what you are write. You seem to be going in circles. Why do u have to show us your own unique definition of equal, cant u just say what you believe....equal rights is not true either...a non-muslim man cannot marry a muslim woman. Here equal rights means he should be able to..There is plenty of things similar to that....but yes dont insult them and respect their beliefs...no need to even use the word equal.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 12:13 PM
Respect is one thing, which by the way ONLY Islam teaches towards other religions; to be equal, though, is a different issue. They are not the same.
I dont know how more obvious you can make this issue....equal is not the word to use.

شمله ور خراساني
07-23-2010, 12:16 PM
Qratugai seems to be equating respect to meaning all things are equal. Just because i tolerate others, respect their right to believe in what they want (surah al kafirun) and dont insult their religion/God, does not in any way mean all religions are equal.
Actually, that is not correct.

Alah describes the polytheists as filthy because they commit the worst sin of all. And elsewhere Allah calls the Jews as the Zaalimoon. The wrongdoers. Likewise there are many passages where Allah speaks of the non-Muslims. And no where are they described in a positive sense.

So we should not respect them for what they believe in. We respect them and treat them well because they are human beings. And because treating others well is an aspect of Islamic character.

But in no does this mean we accept their false deities or their false religion nor should we ever become lenient towards them.

Musafira
07-23-2010, 12:17 PM
Qrratugai indeed we are all going round and round in circles because most of us are not objective when it comes to our religion. The very belief in superiority to a certain faith is usually part of what defines us as a follower of that particular faith.

Qrratugai I see your point and if one does look at all religions objectively (uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices) they are indeed of equal value. Most people here, as I'm sure you have noticed, are incapable or unwilling to look at things objectively :)

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 12:21 PM
Qrratugai indeed we are all going round and round in circles because most of us are not objective when it comes to our religion. The very belief in superiority to a certain faith is usually part of what defines us as a follower of that particular faith.

Qrratugai I see your point and if one does look at all religions objectively (uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices) they are indeed of equal value. Most people here, as I'm sure you have noticed, are incapable or unwilling to look at things objectively :)

This is not a fair assessment and very arrogant of you to say.

Are you a Muslim, if not, what is your faith? let us start with this statement.

Musafira
07-23-2010, 12:54 PM
I think it's rather sad that as soon as someone here tries to explain or point things out in an objective manner that they are immediately attacked. Talk about arrogant lol.

I stand by that statement "Most people here, as I'm sure you have noticed, are incapable or unwilling to look at things objectively".

I myself am not objective when it comes to certain things and nor did I ever claim to be. My faith is irrelevant to this discussion but yes I am a Muslim and I do believe in it being the correct path. Does that mean I have to disrespect other religions or opinions?

I also said The very belief in superiority to a certain faith is usually part of what defines us as a follower of that particular faith and I believe for most of that is true.

I don't know why it is so hard to grasp the concept that objectively all religions have an equal value to their followers. This is a pointless argument and I'm done :)

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 12:58 PM
Momin, it doesn't matter what her faith is. The fact is that through the eyes of a neutral spectator, all religions are the same. They are unverifiable beliefs at best and I see no reason why a person looking in from the outside should prefer Islamic and Jewish monotheism over Christian Trinitarian monotheism, Hindu Polytheism over Nordic Paganism or native American Shamanism/Pantheism over Salafism. For him, they're all sets of beliefs that people may or may not choose to believe.

However, for the follower of each religion, his or her God would be greater than all the other Gods. One Germanic tribe adopted Christianity because they learned that the Christian God died and came back to life. They believed that having such a powerful ally would be of great benefit to them. Anyway, this was at least true before Christianity became widespread. Post-Christian thought dictated that your God was true and the rest of the Gods were mere idols. Religious absolutism began here. "THIS is the truth, the rest is falsehood".

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 02:53 PM
I think it's rather sad that as soon as someone here tries to explain or point things out in an objective manner that they are immediately attacked. Talk about arrogant lol.

I stand by that statement "Most people here, as I'm sure you have noticed, are incapable or unwilling to look at things objectively".

I myself am not objective when it comes to certain things and nor did I ever claim to be. My faith is irrelevant to this discussion but yes I am a Muslim and I do believe in it being the correct path. Does that mean I have to disrespect other religions or opinions?

I also said The very belief in superiority to a certain faith is usually part of what defines us as a follower of that particular faith and I believe for most of that is true.

I don't know why it is so hard to grasp the concept that objectively all religions have an equal value to their followers. This is a pointless argument and I'm done :)

You made the point yourself.....equal value to their followers! WE are muslims and we dont follow christianity that we are then to believe it has equal value to islam.

Why are you guys even wasting your time on this? Its unbelievable. Why do you guys love stating the obvious. Lewanay saying a christian for him christianity is the best. The humans are free to believe what they want, Allah doesnt need followers. Yes we are allowed to question what we believe in. Ibrahim (as) questioned the creation around him and that enabled him to reject the religion of his forefathers..

Khan Gul
07-23-2010, 02:56 PM
Qrratugai,
Khwarzey, In order to put an end to this wrangling, the Qur'aan says: "Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme." And the essence of Muhammad's (pbuh) prophetic mission was that: "I am only a mortal man but He who has created the universe has bidden me to bear His Message to you. In order that you might live in harmony with the plan of His creation, He has commanded me to remind you of His existence, omnipotence and omniscience, and to place before you a program of behavior. If you accept this program, follow me."

Not that I don't respect your views about the equality of all religions, however, in the light of this verse from Qur'aan and the message delivered by the Prophet (pbuh) let me ask you a simple question:

Do you as a Muslim believe that the followers of all other religions, by following their own religions, will earn them this "triumph supreme" (Paradise) after death? If your answer is a positive assertion, i.e., yes, then I am afraid, either you or I have not understood the message of Islam correctly and we need to delve deeply about what we believe. Of course, God does not call for blind subservience on the part of human being but rather appeals to his intellect, so I think, this question, is necessary, so that an integrated image of Islam emerges in its finality in our minds.

Saifullah
07-23-2010, 02:59 PM
That is what everyone is forgetting these ayats where Allah is challenging and questioning believers. We dont need others to tell us how to treat religions when our Quran has clearly outlined all these things for us.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:02 PM
I think it's rather sad that as soon as someone here tries to explain or point things out in an objective manner that they are immediately attacked. Talk about arrogant lol.

I stand by that statement "Most people here, as I'm sure you have noticed, are incapable or unwilling to look at things objectively".

I myself am not objective when it comes to certain things and nor did I ever claim to be. My faith is irrelevant to this discussion but yes I am a Muslim and I do believe in it being the correct path. Does that mean I have to disrespect other religions or opinions?

I also said The very belief in superiority to a certain faith is usually part of what defines us as a follower of that particular faith and I believe for most of that is true.

I don't know why it is so hard to grasp the concept that objectively all religions have an equal value to their followers. This is a pointless argument and I'm done :)

You have proven our case.

No one is disrespecting any other religion, God forbid.

What we are saying is that ALL religions are not equal. If they are then it would be wrong associate yourself with one and not the other. Qrratagai, is saying that ALL religions are equal then she claims to be Muslim. There is a clear contradiction in her practice versus her preaching.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:05 PM
Momin, it doesn't matter what her faith is. The fact is that through the eyes of a neutral spectator, all religions are the same. They are unverifiable beliefs at best and I see no reason why a person looking in from the outside should prefer Islamic and Jewish monotheism over Christian Trinitarian monotheism, Hindu Polytheism over Nordic Paganism or native American Shamanism/Pantheism over Salafism. For him, they're all sets of beliefs that people may or may not choose to believe.

However, for the follower of each religion, his or her God would be greater than all the other Gods. One Germanic tribe adopted Christianity because they learned that the Christian God died and came back to life. They believed that having such a powerful ally would be of great benefit to them. Anyway, this was at least true before Christianity became widespread. Post-Christian thought dictated that your God was true and the rest of the Gods were mere idols. Religious absolutism began here. "THIS is the truth, the rest is falsehood".

Being neutral does not qualify one to have a solid opinion. One must take a stance. That stance must first be with respect to which is God is the True God. Thereafter, let the discussion start. You can't claim that ALL gods are right. Now can you?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:11 PM
Why? I think the Hindu God is a better definition and a better attempt at the rationalization of the concept of 'God'. The Hindu God/Idol actually has a form and is substance. The Moslem/Abrahamic God is merely a thought. Nothing more. A Trimurti or Ganpati is more likely to be the Creator and has a better chance of being potent than Allah/Yahwe/Father.
Secondly, the definition of Allah is not the sole descretion of the Mohammedan faith. For example, I can claim with as much certainty, reasoning and evidence, perhaps even more, that, for example, I, or my laptop or my mobile phone, or the Three of us, is/are the God.


Perfect!

Whether you are right or wrong is not the question to be debated, however, you have just proven our case. The two religions are different, hence, not "equal."

Thank you!

muhsina
07-23-2010, 04:19 PM
The philosophic source of all religions is the same [revelation - whatever it is and the people who claimed to have received it]. The various versions of religions are just various forms of "organised religion" which the clergy have devised to earn their living by exploiting the poor and ignorant masses.

If muslims claim that their religion and hence their prophet is superior to others then this is against quran itself which says:

"la nufariqu bain ahadam minhum" [translation: we do not discriminate among any of the prophets].

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 04:25 PM
Being neutral does not qualify one to have a solid opinion. One must take a stance. That stance must first be with respect to which is God is the True God. Thereafter, let the discussion start. You can't claim that ALL gods are right. Now can you?

Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that all of them are equally false. At least that's what al-Razi said.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:29 PM
Malgariya, both are equal in that both are religions, that is, a collection of dogmas and myths. All I am saying is that, among the two, Hinduism is the better religion.

Well, the fact that you think that Hinduism is better proves a fact that they are not equal. :)

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:33 PM
The philosophic source of all religions is the same [revelation - whatever it is and the people who claimed to have received it]. The various versions of religions are just various forms of "organised religion" which the clergy have devised to earn their living by exploiting the poor and ignorant masses.

If muslims claim that their religion and hence their prophet is superior to others then this is against quran itself which says:

"la nufariqu bain ahadam minhum" [translation: we do not discriminate among any of the prophets].

Prophets are not all equal, in the eyes of Allah. Allah has mentioned that He has granted ranks. If you are going to quote one, then quote the other as well.

Second, as far as prophets are concerned we, as in Muslims, don't distinguish between them, however, here, we are talking about religion not prophets. Allah has mentioned that after the revelation of Islam Islam is the only religion acceptable in the eyes of Allah.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:34 PM
Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that all of them are equally false. At least that's what al-Razi said.

Well, that is your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, Imam Razi (ra) would never say such a thing. :)

muhsina
07-23-2010, 04:50 PM
Prophets are not all equal, in the eyes of Allah. Allah has mentioned that He has granted ranks. If you are going to quote one, then quote the other as well.

How do you know that ALLAH grants hiher rankk to your prophet and lower to other.. I am talking about the point of view of the believers in religion.This is what is mentioned in your book. It is wrong to discrminate based on the choice of god unles she informs you about his choice.

Second, as far as prophets are concerned we, as in Muslims, don't distinguish between them, however, here, we are talking about religion not prophets. Allah has mentioned that after the revelation of Islam Islam is the only religion acceptable in the eyes of Allah.

Religion is nothing but the teaching of the prophet. So when you dont discrminate between the prophets you cannot discriminate between the their teachings too.

The verse which you are referring to applies to bani Isamael [arabs] only as do most of the verses of quran.

muhsina
07-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Prophets are not all equal, in the eyes of Allah. Allah has mentioned that He has granted ranks. If you are going to quote one, then quote the other as well.

How do you know that ALLAH grants hiher rankk to your prophet and lower to other.. I am talking about the point of view of the believers in religion.This is what is mentioned in your book. It is wrong to discrminate based on the choice of god unles she informs you about his choice.

Second, as far as prophets are concerned we, as in Muslims, don't distinguish between them, however, here, we are talking about religion not prophets. Allah has mentioned that after the revelation of Islam Islam is the only religion acceptable in the eyes of Allah.

Religion is nothing but the teaching of the prophet. So when you dont discrminate between the prophets you cannot discriminate between their teachings too.

The verse which you are referring to [inad din indallahal islam] proves in no way that the teachings of the Mohammad are being referred to. It is a general comment about islam. The other prophets also claimed their religion with the same name. Every nation was sent to his own nation hence his teachings are meant for his nation.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 04:54 PM
Well, that is your opinion, which you are entitled to. However, Imam Razi (ra) would never say such a thing. :)

For the love of Ahmed Qadiyaani Mirza Ghulam Kayani (peace be upon him), the very fact that the existence of none of the gods can be proven puts all religions on an equal playing field.

Hinduism is a false religion because Brahma's existence cannot be verified. Religion X, Y and Z are also, similarly, false because their Deities also do not exist.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 04:59 PM
Religion is nothing but the teaching of the prophet. So when you dont discrminate between the prophets you cannot discriminate between the their teachings too.

The verse which you are referring to applies to bani Isamael [arabs] only as do most of the verses of quran.

The are different dearest sister.

A prophet does not get corrupted however, a religion does. There are interpolations and extrapolations over time. ;)

Could you please bring the verse that I am talking about and give me the reference as well. Dera manana.

eyeliner
07-23-2010, 05:01 PM
^ true which is why religions can't be judged by its followers.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:01 PM
Religion is nothing but the teaching of the prophet. So when you dont discrminate between the prophets you cannot discriminate between their teachings too.

The verse which you are referring to [inad din indallahal islam] proves in no way that the teachings of the Mohammad are being referred to. It is a general comment about islam. The other prophets also caimed their religion with the same name. Every nation was sent to his own nation hence his teachings are meant for his nation.

The other prophets also caimed their religion with the same name.

Are you sure? If so, please bring a reference.

Every nation was sent to his own nation hence his teachings are meant for his nation

I agree. However, Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) was sent to all of mankind.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:03 PM
For the love of Ahmed Qadiyaani Mirza Ghulam Kayani (peace be upon him), the very fact that the existence of none of the gods can be proven puts all religions on an equal playing field.

Hinduism is a false religion because Brahma's existence cannot be verified. Religion X, Y and Z are also, similarly, false because their Deities also do not exist.

Please don't mock. A kind request. :)

What is the definition of: iman?

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 05:08 PM
Please don't mock. A kind request. :)

What is the definition of: iman?

A thousand apologies.

I read this (http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm)page and know what Imaan is. Now what?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:11 PM
A thousand apologies.

I read this (http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm)page and know what Imaan is. Now what?


Summarize it in your own words, kindly. :)

Zarawar
07-23-2010, 05:11 PM
Hmm.. so then, Pashtuns are just a race, like any other race..

Oh yeah, that sure it is.

The only thing that makes us different from the entire planet is that we take pride in our identity and we brag about it a little too much (some people, sometimes)

Although, they do have a point, they don't brag about lies. Afghan history IS full of victory and fortunate dignity and ghairat also.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Summarize it in your own words, kindly. :)

Blind faith.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:24 PM
Blind faith.

Not your opinion, dearest brother. What is the definition of: iman? :)

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 05:30 PM
Not your opinion, dearest brother. What is the definition of: iman? :)

Imaan is to have faith and trust in God and to do as he says and to believe what he says you should believe. Because Big Brother is always watching.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:35 PM
Imaan is to have faith and trust in God and to do as he says and to believe what he says you should believe. Because Big Brother is always watching.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Why did you copy and paste the link to that site when you did not have a look at it yourself first? Very dishonest.

Mocking is one thing, however, make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot. :)

Is it safe to say that you have "blindly" rejected God?

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 05:40 PM
Why did you copy and paste the link to that site when you did not have a look at it yourself first? Very dishonest.

Mocking is one thing, however, make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot. :)

Is it safe to say that you have "blindly" rejected God?

What is Imaan? (http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm)

Nope. It's not something that occurred to me one fine morning.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:42 PM
What is Imaan? (http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm)

Nope. It's not something that occurred to me one fine morning.

Dearest brother, I am requesting you to define it in your own words. It would make the discussion more fruitful. :)

muhsina
07-23-2010, 05:43 PM
Are you sure? If so, please bring a reference.

Reference for what?

I agree. However, Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) was sent to all of mankind.

The believers of all prophets claim that their religion is universal and their prophet was sent to all humanity.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 05:46 PM
Dearest brother, I am requesting you to define it in your own words. It would make the discussion more fruitful. :)

Dearest brother and apple of my eye, for me, Imaan can only be defined as unquestioned adherence aka blind faith. I cannot define it in any other way.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Dearest brother and apple of my eye, for me, Imaan can only be defined as unquestioned adherence aka blind faith. I cannot define it in any other way.

Dearest brother, that is your opinion.

What is the definition of iman? Why are you so hesitant? I think you are blind to its real definition.

You don't have to agree with its definition, but what is the definition of iman? It should not be that hard.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Dearest brother, that is your opinion.

What is the definition of iman? Why are you so hesitant? I think you are blind to its real definition.

You don't have to agree with its definition, but what is the definition of iman? It should not be that hard.


Please enlighten me as to what Imaan really is.

JAMALUDEEN
07-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Mashallah AfghanLady, you are very intelligent.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 08:10 PM
Thank you Khan Gul. This has been my point all along but Qrratugai resorted to insults instead(for which she apologized to Momin, If not I was going to PM admin khan).Thank you Khan Gul.

Wait, what? When did I insult anyone? And I don't remember apologizing for any insults either, since I don't insult people. Please quote me on where I insulted him -- and explain to me HOW something I said was insulting.

Manana.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 08:11 PM
Tell us what you know so far.

You know, guley, you should answer his question since he asked you first. You don't ask a question to answer a question, that even to answer when someone asks you to enlighten them about something.

I'll be waiting for your response as well.

شمله ور خراساني
07-23-2010, 08:12 PM
for those who are ignorant of what IMAAN is, please visit this thread:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/important-what-imaan-4259/

Roshina
07-23-2010, 08:21 PM
He never asked me nothing. Before assuming Guley, I always suggest you to read! I asked him that first for my own purposes, his dialogue was with MeemWawMeeMNoon.

He asked:

Please enlighten me as to what Imaan really is.

And you told him: "Tell us what you know first."

That's what I was referring to.

But if his dialogue was with MWMN, then why did you ask him to tell you/us what he knows first? ... He was obviously asking MWMN, yeah?

But, anyway, that's not my concern. I'm still interested to see how I insulted anyone and your claim that you were gonna report my post to Admin. I still think you should report it, though.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 08:40 PM
Because as a member of PF I have the right to question what I want to question, do I sense a problem with my asking him something while he was in debate with Momin?

I said that only since you said "He was in dialogue with MWMN."

Refer to the post in which Momin told you not to talk to him like that how he is a student of Religion.

I need you to quote me on where exactly I insulted him and what I said and all.


Qrratugai, I replied to your posts in the last few pages. Either respond back to my reply or admit to us that what you said was gibberish. I am pretty sure derailing a thread is against the rules of PF.

None of what I said was gibberish, and none of it was wrong or illogical. I still stand by it: ALL religions are equal in value and merit and deserve equal respect and attention, and in order for them to deserve equal respect, they don't have to be the same -- which they're quite obviously not. You tried to prove me wrong by saying that to say that they're equal is to say that Hinduism = Islam = Christianity = etc. But that makes no sense, and there's nothing I can do about it if that's your sense of "equality."

Remember the 2+5 = 7 logic? Yeah. Both sides of the equation are *equal* but are not the same. So, religions can hold equal value WITHOUT being the same.

PFgulalai
07-23-2010, 08:43 PM
Religions are similar nature-wise (nature being defined here as set of traits that define and establish the characters of something) in that their basic ingredients are same. The basic framework of any religion includes few important things:

1.A supernatural being (something that you cannot see with your five senses) in an invisible form (as the Abrahmic God or the holy spirits) or the visible form idols, fire, wind, snake etc
2. Scriptures
3.Rituals/traditions
4.Priests/Imams/Rabbis/Pujari
5.Fear
6.So on...

If you analyze the basic structuring of all obsolete and contemporary religions of the world by studying the evolution of religion, you will see extreme degree of similarity in the way religious ideologies were synthesized, organized, executed, and developed.

So the question is whether all religions are "identical", "equal (or congruent since I saw some maths eqs.), or "same"?

It would be hard to come up with perfect math equation to solve the issue of religious equality since in maths eqaulity is the state of being quantitatively the same (notice the connection between equality and same). However, we are talking about equality and sameness of religions in qualitative sense, rather than quantitative.Hence we can describe equality as "more or less equal" or not equal, or equal.

So if being same is like being identical then does that imply that all religions are same? We can answer the question in two ways depending upon the nature of tool we are using to measure the sameness. If you consider the philosophy and the purpose of the religion (to worship something out of fear), then they are the SAME. If you consider the NATURE of ingredients of all religions, then they are same (all have God and rituals etc). If you consider the KIND of ingredients, then they are not same (some worship idols, some have Omnipresent God).If you consider the degree of impact/influence religions have on world, then they are not same (some are powerful and others are weak).

On the contrary, being equal is not being similar or identical but at almost same level as you are. You might be completely different from the other person, but you could have equal status. Hence when we talk about the eqaulity of religions, we think they are not same but they are equal in that they all have pretty much the same ingredients (here I am focussing on the nature of ingredients, not on the kind of ingredients). They all have the same purpose (worshipping and to make the God happy) and they all lead to the same end--getting reward from the God in this world or afterlife.

Personally, I think there is nothing special or unique about any religion of the world. However, the moment you think as a superior Muslim, Brahman, Christian, Jew etc the meaning of Equality and Samenes changes radically in one specific direction and that is when you confuse the essence of these these terms.

I also make a bold claim like Qrratugai that "ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL". Think logically this time.


Does that mean I think they are equal to my religion in a sense that they are following the correct path of course not.

They are similar but not equal.
I hope you better understand the claims now, Qrratugai made a bold claim saying "ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL". That is Un-Islamic and that is what Me,Momin,Khan Gul, Saifullah, Guley are all trying to teach her.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 08:58 PM
I also make a bold claim like Qrratugai that "ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL". Think logically this time.

LOL @ bold. Yes, one needs to think LOGICALLY about it to get it. Otherwise, it won't work.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 09:11 PM
Why do you call yourself Muslim and not "All-faiths?"

Qrratagai which religion do think is the correct one.

Let us leave this equal business aside, because you have changed the wording of your stance.

PFgulalai
07-23-2010, 09:23 PM
Lol..that's pretty clever to highlight the "similar" world in red, and completely ignore the term "nature-wise" (I think you could not understand the context). I, ofcourse, do not agree with you since there is a stark contrast between your understanding of "similar VS equal" and mine one and now I think it is really a hard concept for some people to understand.

Notice the difference between my version of equality and yours:

Mine: On the contrary, being equal is not being similar or identical but at almost same level as you are. You might be completely different from the other person, but you could have equal status. Hence when we talk about the eqaulity of religions, we think they are not same but they are equal in that they all have pretty much the same ingredients (here I am focussing on the nature of ingredients, not on the kind of ingredients). They all have the same purpose (worshipping and to make the God happy) and they all lead to the same end--getting reward from the God in this world or afterlife.

Yours:

Which makes Islam and Hinduism similar but are they Equal? as a Muslimah of course not. We Muslims believe Islam is the right path and Islam will take us to heaven. that alone does not make them equal.

That Religions might be similar but not equal.

I hope now you know we are thinking differently in wholeness.


Since you are more vigiliant in nullifying the opposing argument with your strong Muslim-ness and opponent's Kafir-ness rather than following the norms of decent argument, you will always find it hard to grasp the concept. However I should mention here that considering humans equal and not same or considering religions being equal and not same, does not require one's faith in this or that God or no God, but more an unbaised attitude ("my religion is the best type" one) which unfortunately is missing here.I have read muslim scholars who think entirely different than you.And I know someone will now ask me the sect of that scholar,lol...

Thanks for agreeing with me on something Me,Momin,Khan Gul, Saif and many others were trying to teach Qrratugai. That Religions might be similar but not equal. Apparently that's a hard concept for many to grasp.:awkward:


Which makes Islam and Hinduism similar but are they Equal? as a Muslimah of course not. We Muslims believe Islam is the right path and Islam will take us to heaven. that alone does not make them equal.
Religions might be similar Gulalai but from an Islamic perspective they are not equal. You have made it clear that you are not a Muslim in previous posts that I have read(correct me if I am wrong) so you see this case like Levanaye Zalmaye would who thinks Islam is just as bad or good as Hinduism. both do this both do that so they are equal.

From an Atheists perspective you might be right[although I can even explain you how you are incorrect with that as well]

But for a self-proclaimed Muslim like Qrratugai to say that Hinduism = Islam that would mean Hinduism can also bring you to Heaven. That is something Islam says can not happen hence the reason why it cant be equal.

We Pashtuns being 99.9 percent Muslim we are debating in terms of Islam.

That's because you are a Kaffir sister. Which is okay and I respect your freedom of choice. :) But to claim you are a Muslim and to say ALL ARE EQUAL that is incorrect word to use. :angel1:

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 09:28 PM
Gulaila, why is it that you don't believe in God? Is it safe to assume that you view all religions equal because they are all man-made and all are false anyways?

Roshina
07-23-2010, 09:33 PM
Lol..that's pretty clever to highlight the "similar" world in red, and completely ignore the term "nature-wise" (I think you could not understand the context). I, ofcourse, do not agree with you since there is a stark contrast between your understanding of "similar VS equal" and mine one and now I think it is really a hard concept for some people to understand.

Notice the difference between my version of equality and yours:

Mine: On the contrary, being equal is not being similar or identical but at almost same level as you are. You might be completely different from the other person, but you could have equal status. Hence when we talk about the eqaulity of religions, we think they are not same but they are equal in that they all have pretty much the same ingredients (here I am focussing on the nature of ingredients, not on the kind of ingredients). They all have the same purpose (worshipping and to make the God happy) and they all lead to the same end--getting reward from the God in this world or afterlife.

Yours:

Which makes Islam and Hinduism similar but are they Equal? as a Muslimah of course not. We Muslims believe Islam is the right path and Islam will take us to heaven. that alone does not make them equal.

That Religions might be similar but not equal.

I hope now you know we are thinking differently in wholeness.


Since you are more vigiliant in nullifying the opposing argument with your strong Muslim-ness and opponent's Kafir-ness rather than following the norms of decent argument, you will always find it hard to grasp the concept. However I should mention here that considering humans equal and not same or considering religions being equal and not same, does not require one's faith in this or that God or no God, but more an unbaised attitude ("my religion is the best type" one) which unfortunately is missing here.I have read muslim scholars who think entirely different than you.And I know someone will now ask me the sect of that scholar,lol...

Very pleased and relieved to see that you, too, get the difference between equal and same, or that equality does not mean sameness. It's like saying, all religions are NOT equal because all religions are NOT the same. Well, duh. They're not the same; no on says they are (note: They may have some similar beliefs, but they are not the same.)

I also agree that a non-biased perspective is necessary in order to grasp the whole idea of how all religions are equal (again, EQUAL, not the same). Since post 1, I've been saying how all are deserving of equal respect, appreciation, and respect, and I still say that, and somehow it's made some of us believe that to say they're equal is to say Islam = Hinduism.

A biased perspective would be "my religion is better than everyone else's, and hence no other religion is equal to mine -- be it in value or respect or appreciation." Since I'm speaking from an unbiased perspective, one in which NONE are better or worse than any other, I continue believing that all are equal; they're all of equal worth.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 09:35 PM
Qrratagai, you do understand gulalai does not believe in God? Why are you so relieved that she is backing you up?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 09:38 PM
Qrratagai, you are changing your stance now. You have clearly stated that all religions are equal. I find it amusing that you don't answer to posts that will corner you, khair...as you please. Please do realize that you are not being honest. Don't take us for fools.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 09:39 PM
Qrratagai, you do understand gulalai does not believe in God? Why are you so relieved that she is backing you up?

I'm not relieved that she's backing me up. I don't need ANYONE to back up. If you remember from the very beginning, I've always held a different perspective on pretty much every issue, and I'm very proud of and happy with that. So if you think I need someone to stand with me or back me up, you're wrong.

If you read my post to her, though, you'll see that it said:

I'm very pleased and relieved to see that you, too, get the difference between equal and sameness. Being equal does not mean being the same.

Anyone -- whether an atheist or a theist -- can say this. And I say it from a theist perspective while Gulalai might say it from an atheist perspective.

Roshina
07-23-2010, 09:41 PM
Qrratagai, you are changing your stance now. You have clearly stated that all religions are equal. I find it amusing that you don't answer to posts that will corner you, khair...as you please. Please do realize that you are not being honest. Don't take us for fools.

That's correct - I've stated clearly and over and over that ALL religions are equal. I've also explained what it means to be equal (which is certainly not "sameness" like Afghanlady says: If all are equal, then Islam = Hinduism!" Uh, no. If all are equal, then Hinduism becomes JUST as worthy of being followed as Islam is; Hinduism is JUST as worth of being respected and tolerated as Islam is.)

So, my stance has not changed at all.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 09:44 PM
Why do you avoid to answer questions that will set the record straight?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 09:50 PM
Its popular trick in forums, Its also known as being a dishonest debater. When they know they are getting cornered, when they fail to offer a response. They begin to change the topic and offer a continuation of rants.



She knows by answering those questions you brought-forward. She will contradict her views.

The Religion which believes all are equal is something ShahRukh Khan brought forward to the main stream media, he said they are all equal, He said he visit the Golden Temple, He prays to Allah, he puts on the Hindu red tikka on his forehead etc. Media can have a negative effect in the West Momin.

I get dumbfounded that she does not answer questions that will resolve this issue.


Qrratagai, you are not being honest, you can't pick and choose questions.

شمله ور خراساني
07-23-2010, 10:09 PM
LOL

Qrratugai is being pounded by Afghanlady.

Good goin! I am proud of you Afghanlady. You tell her!

PFgulalai
07-23-2010, 11:25 PM
From an Islamic perspective of the issue its not hard at all Gulalai.

Its really common sense, you want to try it again? lets try it again.

Islam = The Truth. (according to Muslims)
Hinduism = Not the truth(according to Muslim)

To say, "Islam and Hinduism are equal"

That is kuffar.

To say, "Islam and Hinduism are similar and we should respect them both"

That I agree with to a certain extent. Its not rocket science Gulalai.

I am afraid to tell you that your mathematical logic is quite a flawed one.

It has already denouncing all kinds of common sense and making it a rocket science if you keep coming up with your flawed mathematical equations. I am curious to know the the nature of your qualitative terms.

Nonethless, here I try your logic to clear your confusion.....and it leads me to this:

Islam = The Truth. (according to Muslims) ----(eq 1)
Hinduism = Not the truth(according to Muslim)---(eq 2)

Combining (1) and (2)

Yes (islam--truth) + =No (hinduism)not the truth - (minus)

+ and - cancels each other and we are left with zero.Zero means absence and hence we are left with no Islam or Hinduism but ZERO. Watch out Afghanlady! you were implying kuffar here??

That is why I mentioned in my earlier posts that one should refrain from using Eqaulity concept for qualititative terms like religious equality since the rules of Mathematical Equality do not apply to qualititative terms but to quantitative terms.


Not at all, I said that for a reason. Don't take offence, If you did take offence for me pointing out the obvious[which you said you are] I apologize.I said it to make things clear, as Muslim would not think they are equal for the reason I provided. I don't care about that scholar or whatever you read I care about you and this discussion. Most importantly I care about those Muslims who are self-proclaimed Muslims yet they talk about how all Religions are equal.If they are Equal Gulalai me and Qrratugai might start visiting the Golden-Temple in Amritsar to perform our Eid prayer.:angel1:

You must be kidding me to think that I would take offense of such a petty issue. I mean you just called me Kafir, lol. And what else would you use to defend yourself.Although I must say that you have been so kind to me to place me with respectable Levanaye Zalmeye. I felt extremely honored and I would have been offended a lot if you had placed me with a less kafir than him. You could defend your religion as much as you want and I will defend my statement.The difference between you and me is that I see world and it's people through a broader lens (a kafir one) and not your narrow-minded "lens", although unlike you I would never claim that my lens is the perfect one. And it is with my lens that I see all religions equal but not identical.


And yeah, we should definitely make a trip to Golden temple.I have been there once and it's a beautiful one. They are pretty tolerant to muslims.I guess they won't stop you from offering Maanza. :)

Roshina
07-23-2010, 11:33 PM
I must note here that making the "bold" claim (as Afghanlady called it -- and now that I think of it, I think everything "bold" is labeled un-Islamic, just as this claim was labeled as such by her) that ALL religions are equal and none are better or worse than others is something that's contested in academics till today. PhD theses are written on this topic, and scholars debate on this.

So, for me to be sitting here with "ordinary" folks (just like everyone else here, I'm an ordinary person, and by ordinary I mean non-scholar) and making a "bold" claim that requires such lengthy explanations as could be explained only in volumes of books or papers ... is not a very smart move. The smarter move WOULD have been, though, to just let people think about it themselves.

Kha, now, I'm glad that Afghanlady thinks she has the power to challenge me; I appreciate that and even admire that. However, without any intentions of disappointing anyone, I have to say that she has failed to challenge my perspective as of yet. She has implied that she's here to change my views ('cause she's explicitly said over and over that she could teach me a lot), and I'm not even sorry to say this out loud: You're absolutely incapable of changing my view on this whole "all religions are equal" thing. If you think you can change ANYTHING about me without proving me wrong, you might have to sped lifetimes making it happen. As Tor Khan once said to me, "People don't realize that you're a Redwood Tree!" Knowing myself, I can say this is true. So I'm almost surprised that you guys haven't learned by now (after all these 5 or so months on PF) that people have to do a LOT to prove me wrong in anything, or even to get me to agree with them on something.

It's not to sound arrogant or anything, of course. I'm perfectly open to a different perspective or seeing something from a different perspective, and I don't believe my own views are better than others. But I DO believe that anyone who thinks they've the power to change my perspective on something just because they think they're right will never succeed.

I said you haven't proven me wrong anywhere, Afghanlady, because you've ONLY stated that it's "un-Islamic" or "kufar" (which isn't challenging my stance at all) to believe that all religions are equal (again: Equal does NOT mean the same). And you've said that "you think that all religions are equal, which means Hinduism = Christianity = Islam!" This is a sign of your misunderstanding, or the lack of understanding, of my argument, in spite of my many attempts to clarify it over and over.

By the way, a note to you, Afghanlady khor, you said in one of your posts that you asked me questions that were intended to "corner" me. You do realize that that's not what you do in debates/discussions, right? In a debate, you exchange views/opinions/beliefs WITHOUT cornering your opponent. You said in your last post that this is no attack, but you contradicted yourself before that by saying that "we've asked you questions to corner you/your beliefs" or something. In REAL debates, you ask questions when you don't understand a different perspective; you don't make assumptions, and you don't tell someone they're wrong just because they disagree with you. MWMN wrora, you went wrong by saying I'm misguided just because I refuse to believe that Islam is superior to other religions. My following Islam does NOT make it any more superior to all other religions of the earth. You disagree with this, clearly, but we just have to live with this disagreement. I refuse to believe that a certain belief system is superior to another just because I follow it, or just because I prefer it for myself or just because it works for me.

Anyway, disagreements will be there, I guarantee you, but the trick is to learn how to HANDLE them without thinking that just because a person agrees with you, you're right (which brings me to remind you that I'm not the type of person who tells someone, "THANK you for agreeing with me!" I find that immature, a sign of someone who's new at discussions and being exposed to disagreements). As a human, I don't need people to agree with me (my religious, cultural, political, personal, otherwise) values in order for me to appreciate them. In fact, I'm a strong advocate of diversity, and I PROMOTE diversity -- which should explain why I almost ALWAYS come to every discussion with a perspective that's not in sync with the one presented by everyone else. I like differences because I can handle them, and I appreciate them more than I appreciate or like similarities.

Afghanlady, you also keep saying you and MWMN could teach me a lot; at least you seem to think that you CAN teach me something or you're here TO teach me. You do realize, though, that we're supposed to be here to learn as WELL as teach, right? Besides, if you think you've a lot to teach me, do it without saying it. Because so far, I've gotten nothing from you, and I'm still waiting.

As for the discussion is concerned, MWMN presents nothing different than Afghanlady: He argues that "To say that All religions are equal is to say that you can be a Muslim WHILE believing that it's okay to believe in more than one God."

Where he goes wrong is this: I don't and have nowhere said that you be a Muslim AND a Hindu at the same time. It's another thing, however, when someone wants to combine different religious beliefs and thoughts and make one religion out of them for her/himself. But that's not my argument here, and that's not the stance in question here. The stance in question is this:

All religions are equal, and that means none are better or worse than any others. (Again: I've said this a thousand times so far in this same thread.) People can be whatever they wanna be while *I* remain whatever I am or change into whatever I believe is right. THAT's what it means to equally respect, appreciate, and tolerate all religions, without believing that your own deserves some special treatment just because you follow it.

There's nothing I can do about your choice to select parts of my posts to read and ignore others, or take them out of context. Just like Afghanlady did with Gulalai's posts, she took my statement that "All religions are equal" WITHOUT reading further where I explained what that means. You wanna talk about intellectual dishonesty? This is a perfect example of it.

Anyway, I've gone through Afghanlady's and MWMN's posts thrice so far, wondering where Afghanlady thinks she's succeeding in proving me wrong or even challenging me, and have found nothing new. MWMN thinks that his "challenge" to my view (which is that ALL religions are equal and none are better or worse than others) can be responded to by his asking me whether I believe in God or not! To me, that has nothing to do with anything, although just to answer his question, yeah, of course I believe in God -- but my belief in God is in NO way superior to another person's disbelieve in God.

That's because I believe that you can be a theist or an atheist and believe in the equality of all religions (just like you can be a rich or a poor person WHILE believing in the equality of all humans). Again and again (for the sake of this discussion and those who are fooling themselves in believing that I'm going to resort to agreeing with them when they see their beliefs as superior to all other people's when I DON'T see anyone's beliefs as superior OR inferior to mine), I explain and elaborate on what it means to be equal.

You can believe your religion is the ONLY correct one, and that's fine; but that doesn't make any other religions of any lower value.

THAT has been my stance from the very beginning. Yet, Afghanlady and MWMN think I'm changing my position when I merely help explain to help the two of you get what it means for religions to be equal. So again: My stance has not changed at all, as I believe right now as well that all religions are equal and none are better or worse that, or inferior or superior to, others.

In order for me to change my stance, I've to be proven wrong. And how is one to prove me wrong that a certain religion is more superior to another religion? I need an unbiased person to come here and tell me, "Religion X is superior to Religion Y, and here's why."

But no one has proven me wrong. Telling me that it's "kufar" doesn't prove my position wrong.

I'll watch out for this thread in case someone succeeds in proving me wrong, or proving to me from an unbiased mind how a certain belief system is superior to all others. Don't ask any more questions; just simply prove it wrong. Reminder for those who don't like to read in full:

All religions are equal in value and merit, none are better or worse than others, none are superior or inferior to others, and all have equal right to exist and be followed.

Prove this wrong if you believe otherwise.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:38 PM
There are a lot of flaws in your post. You are accusing without base. Let us leave this equal business aside, because you have changed the wording of your stance.

Anyhow, Qrratagai khore, answer this:

Why do you call yourself Muslim and not "All-faiths?"

Qrratagai which religion do think is the correct one?

شمله ور خراساني
07-23-2010, 11:38 PM
LOL at ordinary people.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:40 PM
Islam = The Truth. (according to Muslims) ----(eq 1)
Hinduism = Not the truth(according to Muslim)---(eq 2)

Combining (1) and (2)

Yes (islam--truth) + =No (hinduism)not the truth - (minus)

+ and - cancels each other and we are left with zero.Zero means absence and hence we are left with no Islam or Hinduism but ZERO. Watch out Afghanlady! you were implying kuffar here??



Qrratagai brought his whole equation business forward.

I don't follow your equation. Spell it out. It is too confusing to follow. Keep your variables consistent.

شمله ور خراساني
07-23-2010, 11:44 PM
We have had a positive influence on Qrratugai's mind since she is now slowly changing her stance from that flawed post of hers in which said, "All Religions are equal".
you have helped her out to return back to islam. In Islam people who give dawah to such people and correct their heresy are considered as champions of Islam!

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:47 PM
What I find weird and I can't seem to wrap my head around it is that Qrratagai is happy that Gulalai is on her side when Gulalai calls the Existence of God a fairy tale.

Girl, you have really stoop low, I would not have expected that from you.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:54 PM
Have you noticed she still has not answered my question. I posted for her again, so that she would not have to go look for it.

If she wishes she does not have to answer, but at least don't preach this flawed logic either.

PFgulalai
07-23-2010, 11:55 PM
Well first of all my belief has nothing to do with my statement that "all religions are equal". Second, the topic here is not "about the existence of God" or "the falsification or truth of religions on the basis of God", if I address your curiosity specifically.
Let me simplify it for you..religions (which are ofcourse man-made) are invented and developed through same mechanism, only the ingredients/elements are different. Hence they are not similar (because the elements are different) but they are equal (since their purpose is the same). I don't think that any religion in this world is perfect and hence will make it superior to all other religions. They are all man-made, so how come they could be perfect?

The rest MWMN you are stressing yourself too much about my belief system. Don't worry! it won't harm anyone like some of the believers have done:hairy:

Gulaila, why is it that you don't believe in God? Is it safe to assume that you view all religions equal because they are all man-made and all are false anyways?

JAMALUDEEN
07-23-2010, 11:56 PM
Alright Ladies and Gents, I think that is enough for today. Let her go

Another reminder -- You guys have jumped off-topic.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-23-2010, 11:58 PM
^Gulalai, why are you always defensive?

Qrratagai, why do you follow religion? According to the expert on religion, God does not exist and religion is man-made.

Roshina
07-24-2010, 12:01 AM
We have had a positive influence on Qrratugai's mind since she is now slowly changing her stance from that flawed post of hers in which said, "All Religions are equal".

Untrue: I still believe that all religions are equal -- and they are. Do consider reading my (complete) previous post for a better understanding. And remember that you've to prove me wrong for me to change my stance, which you haven't done so far. I've no reason to change my position at all.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 12:06 AM
Qrratagai, do you believe that Islam is the correct religion? Yes or No. How hard is it to answer this question?

It will shed a lot of light with respect to your stance.

JAMALUDEEN
07-24-2010, 12:09 AM
Qrratugai, i think you have made up your mind. Even in case proven wrong, It will not alter your belief or change your mind to accept it (Trust me on this, i have experience) LOL. So this discussion is going no-where but in circles.

Please guys save your mental energy for another topic. Perhaps for a topic that we will all agree on. I doubt though that you can learn much from forums but the ideas etc... are mind blowing...

Anywho
Have fun in here Guys......

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 12:19 AM
Thats how she always is, you just have to ignore the defensive side and look for her point.

Momin I am starting to put 2 and 2 together, do you follow? :loveit:

our soon to be Islamic writer is thanking a post of Gulalai in which she insults Islam and calls it a man-made religion.

Ya Allah madad.

Truly depressing. I once compared Qrratgai to Irshad Manji and she took offense, yet here we have someone, gulalai, who is not only calling religion man-made but is denying the existence of God, and Qrrtagai is happy to have her as a cheerleader.

I dont' get it? :banghead:

I don't have a problem with people and their religious association or whether they believe in God or not. That is a personal matter. However, to be happy that you are being encouraged by someone who rejects anything religious is just incredible.

I don't have a problem with Qrratagai and her stance, but I just hope she does not teach people this and present it as an Islamic concept.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 12:52 AM
Please don't mock. A kind request. :)

What is the definition of: iman?


A thousand apologies.

I read this (http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm)page and know what Imaan is. Now what?


Summarize it in your own words, kindly. :)


Blind faith.


Not your opinion, dearest brother. What is the definition of: iman? :)


Imaan is to have faith and trust in God and to do as he says and to believe what he says you should believe. Because Big Brother is always watching.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Why did you copy and paste the link to that site when you did not have a look at it yourself first? Very dishonest.

Mocking is one thing, however, make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot. :)

Is it safe to say that you have "blindly" rejected God?


What is Imaan? (http://quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm)

Nope. It's not something that occurred to me one fine morning.


Dearest brother, I am requesting you to define it in your own words. It would make the discussion more fruitful. :)


Dearest brother and apple of my eye, for me, Imaan can only be defined as unquestioned adherence aka blind faith. I cannot define it in any other way.


Dearest brother, that is your opinion.

What is the definition of iman? Why are you so hesitant? I think you are blind to its real definition.

You don't have to agree with its definition, but what is the definition of iman? It should not be that hard.


Please enlighten me as to what Imaan really is.


Tell us what you know so far.



Dearest sister, I have exhausted myself and as you can see, I have tried to define Imaan multiple times only to be told to redefine it. It is your turn to tell me what it is.

As for dearest brother, is it something specific that you want me to say so that you can say, "Gotcha!". If so, tell me and I will type it. This circular debate is great fun but it is taking important web-space of the internets.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:03 AM
^No, dear brother. I don't do that.

Anyhow, I find that we have killed this thread. It has gone out of control.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 01:07 AM
^No, dear brother. I don't do that.

Anyhow, I find that we have killed this thread. It has gone out of control.


Then you and I should start another thread. Like Adam and Eve... I mean Steve... or Aadam and Arshadullah Baig.

PFgulalai
07-24-2010, 01:12 AM
Hmmm I was expecting a more defensive mathematical-logic-conditioned reply but never mind!!Don't underestimate those plus and minus signs since they represent your logic and if you do so, in a way you invalidate your logic,lol which is not what you would like to see here, right?

Understanding Qrratugai's viewpoint is not as hard as you are trying to potray it. Both of us, in essence, believe in the equality of religions. The biggest confusion that you have is that of the meaning of equality which obviously in not that important since you are more concerned about my marathon (what's up with the running,girl?lol)

FYI, I have read not only your posts but of others as well. I know your argument very well (so now you don't have to repeat it for me but thanks a lot) and I tried my level best to understand it. I found it quite self-contradictory in nature but of course as long as you keep a biased approach, you will never see the other side of the image.

P.S. have fun with :hairy: in heaven on behalf as well ;)





Don't worry about myself Guley, Afghanlady was pretty good in school.:)

That made me laugh Gulalai you put this smirk on my face with that silly equation.Before you assign your own Plus and Minuses lets give it another try since apparently you have a difficulty in understanding this, I hope you don't run away;) but lets go first of, I never knew this is such a hard concept. But I will try it again with you.

Firstly, before you begin this conversation you need to realize 2 things.

1)Qrratugai is a self-proclaimed Muslim.(unlike you, which mean she thinks Islam is the truth and only the truth to heaven).

She said clearly several times all religions are equal. several times, Me and Momin after we finished laughing we began to play with her flawed logic[which result to her departure] We said okay if thats true what do you have to say about this, that, this that. to which she ignored a hand ful of the problems.

Now if you want to look at this from an Islamic stance its really simple not hard at all, Islam claims to be the truth, only the truth and nothing short but the truth. Islam teaches us to follow the Quran and only the Quran.

To imply that all Religions are equal you are clearly as a Muslim contradicting the above. You can say they are similar but not equal.

If you think they are equal, Next time Qrratugai fills up an application and it asks for her Religion for survery purposes she should check mark all 5. cause according to her, all are equal.

Now you are here in defence and obviously to you they are all wrong, they all cancel out etc, etc.

To defend myself I used my points listed above in several posts. Please do me a huge favor and look at all the posts made me here. You are making me repeat everything I said already.

I'm sorry, but I have to go to heaven. I'm not so fond of hell. So you can go ahead and have fun with the Sardar Jiis, Me and Momin will pass. Thanks anyways Guley! :D

PFgulalai
07-24-2010, 01:20 AM
MWMN! that was a real bummer for you, isn't it?

I am proud of my belief and I maintain it where ever I go!

Long live the great apes!
What I find weird and I can't seem to wrap my head around it is that Qrratagai is happy that Gulalai is on her side when Gulalai calls the Existence of God a fairy tale.

Girl, you have really stoop low, I would not have expected that from you.

شمله ور خراساني
07-24-2010, 01:23 AM
MWMN! that was a real bummer for you, isn't it?

I am proud of my belief and I maintain it where ever I go!

Long live the great apes!
would you be offended if I referred to you as bizogai?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:24 AM
MWMN! that was a real bummer for you, isn't it?

I am proud of my belief and I maintain it where ever I go!

Long live the great apes!



It is your life, why would I care?

Musafira
07-24-2010, 01:25 AM
I think some people do not have any idea how obnoxious they come across when they talk about people in a thread and say "Oh I guess so & so is scared to reply or we got so & so cornered now or making fun of who takes so & so's side." These "debates" as you all call them are far from appearing friendly. I think I should be able to express my opinion without someone calling me arrogant or questioning my faith. I guess I'm weak/cowardly or whatever in most of your eyes since I don't appreciate how many of you "debate" here. I find it shocking and disturbing that some here are incapable of saying "Okay that is your opinion and I respect that but this is mine........ now let's MOVE ON!"

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:27 AM
Qrratugai khore,

the question that i want answered is: Do you believe Islam to be correct?

This is what I have been asking for. If you have already answered it (i can't find it), please accept my apologies and answer it again.

Perhaps, I am misunderstanding your definition of "equal." However, this question will open up the idea more.

Roshina
07-24-2010, 01:28 AM
I think some people do not have any idea how obnoxious they come across when they talk about people in a thread and say "Oh I guess so & so is scared to reply or we got so & so cornered now or making fun of who takes so & so's side." These "debates" as you all call them are far from appearing friendly. I think I should be able to express my opinion without someone calling me arrogant or questioning my faith. I guess I'm weak/cowardly or whatever in most of your eyes since I don't appreciate how many of you "debate" here. I find it shocking and disturbing that some here are incapable of saying "Okay that is your opinion and I respect that but this is mine........ now let's MOVE ON!"

Oh, thank God you exist, Musafirey!

PFgulalai
07-24-2010, 01:31 AM
Lol..You and MWMN are so manipulative to the extent that now you even made a claim that I have insulted Islam.Not that I have any fears (fear, remember?) but that you are lying and Islam forbids from lying and hence you don't want to lose your trip to paradise with MWMN so do not try this lame tactic.

Secondly, all religions are man-made since men devised them. How would have you know about God if prophets were not there? I mean the prophets were the one who conveyed the message of God so there is an important role of humans.And since man is a human, therefore, man made the religion...hence man-made religion. Now what's so confusing? lol

FYI: Dictionary meaning of man-made: "Made by humans rather than occurring in nature; synthetic: man-made fibers; a manmade lake"


our soon to be Islamic writer is thanking a post of Gulalai in which she insults Islam and calls it a man-made religion.

Ya Allah madad.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:33 AM
Lol..You and MWMN are so manipulative to the extent that now you even made a claim that I have insulted Islam.Not that I have any fears (fear, remember?) but that you are lying and Islam forbids from lying and hence you don't want to lose your trip to paradise with MWMN so do not try this lame tactic.

Secondly, all religions are man-made since men devised them. How would have you know about God if prophets were not there? I mean the prophets were the one who conveyed the message of God so there is an important role of humans.And since man is a human, therefore, man made the religion...hence man-made religion. Now what's so confusing? lol

FYI: Dictionary meaning of man-made: "Made by humans rather than occurring in nature; synthetic: man-made fibers; a manmade lake"

Breath.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:35 AM
Deleted post

None of your previous posts were as clear as this one. You did not hold back. You said it all. Thank you.

Now allow me to respond.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 01:37 AM
How dare you? God only speaks in cryptic language to prophets in hidden places where there is no one else around so as to verify the truth. That's why it's called faith. When the boy cries wolf, you run for it.




Lol..You and MWMN are so manipulative to the extent that now you even made a claim that I have insulted Islam.Not that I have any fears (fear, remember?) but that you are lying and Islam forbids from lying and hence you don't want to lose your trip to paradise with MWMN so do not try this lame tactic.

Secondly, all religions are man-made since men devised them. How would have you know about God if prophets were not there? I mean the prophets were the one who conveyed the message of God so there is an important role of humans.And since man is a human, therefore, man made the religion...hence man-made religion. Now what's so confusing? lol

FYI: Dictionary meaning of man-made: "Made by humans rather than occurring in nature; synthetic: man-made fibers; a manmade lake"

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:38 AM
Qrratugai, why did you delete my post?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:48 AM
Please put your post back. That was very dishonest of you. There was a reason why you were not answering the question. The post actually revealed a lot.

Please put it back. You had no right to delete it from my quote. Put it back.

You are being very dishonest.

People are accusing us of going in circles, but it is you who is leading us in circles.

Please put it back. Otherwise, it shows you are abusing your powers of moderator.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 01:48 AM
I thought I already explained that it's futile to get into a discussion with people who don't listen or who make too many assumptions.

But I'm still hoping to get an answer to my question about HOW does a religion become superior to all others just because of its teachings and/or practices. I'm willing to hear you because I cannot imagine ANY religion being superior to other -- since all are equal. So if you want, you may explain this to me.


Okay, let's begin with your indoctrination.

Qrratugai, can you please define Imaan?

If you draw a picture at the end of your essay, you will get a star and a smiley.

PFgulalai
07-24-2010, 01:50 AM
Dearest brother/sister, can you find the related verses for me to prove your stance? plus do you believe in Holy Quran or Bible? Do you think that it suits the future Islamic Scholar like Qrratugai to say thanks to Gulalai who thinks that apes should live long? More impotantly, do you believe in the existence of God, dearest sister/brother?Answers require detailed citing with relevent examples when needed.Menena.

P.S. Great one as usual! ;)

How dare you? God only speaks in cryptic language to prophets in hidden places where there is no one else around so as to verify the truth. That's why it's called faith. When the boy cries wolf, you run for it.

PFgulalai
07-24-2010, 02:00 AM
...lack in knowledge or the waste of knowledge, I would say... I think she should not waste her time on this thread. I hope she hears me..::rolleyes::

But sometimes when you cant respond to something its always good to ignore since you dont want to discuss something you lack knowledge in. :angel1:

Roshina
07-24-2010, 02:08 AM
...lack in knowledge or the wastage of knowledge, I would say... I think she should not waste her time on this thread. I hope she hears me..::rolleyes::

I hear you and I agree fully. I've been receiving PMs from PF members telling me how I'm just wasting my time when the other side is not only listening but is being very rude and all, and one of them even reminded me of the message in my signature! Silly me, I need to remind myself of that over and over so I don't waste my time.

So, yeah, it's not calling "quitting"; it's called letting go and letting them feel like they won something. Clearly, we're here to get everyone to AGREE with us! We're not here to learn from each other. That, I can't live with. I'm here to learn, not to agree with everyone, especially when it's as illogical as it can get.

We also need to remember that when you're ignored, it means you don't make any sense or have nothing useful to contribute to a discussion; it doens't necessarily mean the person doesn't have answers to your questions. It also means that you don't deserve the person's time because you're more interested in "teaching" them something than learning FROM them, or you believe they're wrong and you're right.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:13 AM
Afghanlady,

Qrratugai deleted her post, but in it she said that she does not believe Islam to be the true religion for everyone. It is only true as far as she is concerned, but not everyone.

She is asking me to prove to her why I think Islam is superior. Which i do now.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 02:17 AM
Yup, when one has no reply they begin nonsense.

I can also say all the nonsense in the world and when someone questions me I can run and hide. It seems like she has had fun doing that.

What makes it even more fun is when you delete your post. Now that is when it becomes funny too cause that is a sign of insecurity along with running and hiding.

So Gulalai let Qrratugai speak for herself. If she is capable enough she should respond to the posts by Me, Momin and Khan Gul. If not, I will not the message is clear and short.


For your great achievement today, it is the Ayatollah's honor to present you with a special award. Khomeini approves:

http://nimg.sulekha.com/business/original700/ali-khamenei-mahmoud-ahmadinejad-2009-8-3-10-10-12.jpg



In addition to that, Nelson Mandela wishes you well and awards you the world cup:


http://muslimvillage.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/nelson_mandela_world_cup_trophy.jpg

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:17 AM
It is all clear now what she really thinks about Islam. No need to guess anymore.

It is her opinion, which she is entitled to, but to represented as a teaching of Islam is incorrect.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:19 AM
Interesting. I wonder why she deleted it, hmm.

Hence, she has proven that all religions are not equal.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:25 AM
I am very shocked and saddened. Here we are trying to say that all religions are not equal which is what she also believes in, but by use of semantics she was able to get all of those who don't believe in God or who think that religion is man-made on her side. What do they care for? They just want an excuse to laugh at God and Islam.

She was of the same opinion as ours.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 02:30 AM
I am very shocked and saddened. Here we are trying to say that all religions are not equal which is what she also believes in, but by use of semantics she was able to get all of those who don't believe in God or who think that religion is man-made on her side. What do they care for?

She was of the same opinion as ours.

To a Maoist born in the 50s, why would Islam be any more special than Christianity?

Islam is special and better than all the religions for you as a Muslim just like Catholicism is better than the rest of them for a Catholic. That's the whole point of this thread. It is very simple. Yet it is difficult for many to accept. Why?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:31 AM
I guess she did not want to agree with us. Allah is all knowing lets wait for she has to say if she ignores again then we might as well know the answer.



She was just being stubborn: devil's advocate.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:33 AM
To a Maoist born in the 50s, why would Islam be any more special than Christianity?

Islam is special and better than all the religions for you as a Muslim just like Catholicism is better than the rest of them for a Catholic. That's the whole point of this thread. It is very simple. Yet it is difficult for many to accept. Why?

Dear brother, what do you know about Christianity? What do you know about Islam?

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 02:35 AM
Dear brother, what do you know about Christianity? What do you know about Islam?

What do you know about Christianity and Islam? In your own words, please.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 02:39 AM
I have already accepted that. each person thinks their religion is the best.

Qrratugai went as far as saying no they are all equal. Then when she posted all her views she realized how miserably she contradicted her views herself. What did she do? she deleted her post out of shame cause she pretty much said what me and momin have been saying all along.


You can even believe in the Religion of Shoes. In which everybody has to worship shoes and I will still respect you.


I can't speak for Qttatugai because she knows best what her beliefs are. However, from a neutral's perspective, all faiths are equal. gulalai made a post about it a few pages ago. Someone who does not believe in any form of divinity will view all religions as equally false.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:51 AM
What do you know about Christianity and Islam? In your own words, please.

The point that I was trying to make was how can you make a blanket statement when you don't know about other religions?

You could not even answer iman. You were just mocking and posting websites. That is very dishonest.

You can't go around bashing religion when you don't have a clue what religions actually teach and what is the philosophy behind them. Yes, you can't say that it is not your cup of tea, but you have to be honest by saying at the least that you are not well versed with any religion.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 02:54 AM
That is your opinion which I respect. If you were a Muslim, I would have debated it with you though since Islam teaches us only Islam is the truth not Hinduism.

Then we are in agreement.


http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/rap_sheet/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/simpsons_handshake.jpg

The point that I was trying to make was how can you make a blanket statement when you don't know about other religions?

You could not even answer iman. You were just mocking and posting websites. That is very dishonest.

You can't go around bashing religion when you don't have a clue what religions actually teach and what is the philosophy behind them. Yes, you can't say that it is not your cup of tea, but you have to be honest by saying at the least that you are not well versed with any religion.


Yes, Momin, I have good knowledge about both Islam and Christianity. I have more than just a clue as to what both actually teach. Religion IS my cup of tea. However, the fact is that even Muslims don't agree on what Islamic philosophy is. Anyway, since you want me to post something, I'll do it to satisfy you even though you will naturally reply, 'your knowledge is rudimentary at best and therefore your conclusions about Islam are incorrect'.

Islam preaches strict monotheism. It claims it is the religion of Adam, David, Moses and Jesus. The final prophet and everything revealed to him nullify everything of the past though. The life of the final prophet, his family and his companions are the model for all modern Muslims. However, those lives are filled with acts of selfless charity along with acts of brutal barbarity. Some Muslims choose to follow the former and others, the latter. Islamic practices such as ritual prayers and fasting are to be practiced and not doing so would have worldly and after-world repercussions. The many contradictory Hadith, collected decades after the prophet's death, have resulted in clerics and priests unleashing terror upon innocent people.

Christianity came out of occupied Judea and spread like wildfire after Constantine converted. It initially liberated people from the tyranny of the Old Testament and its priests and preached love and forgiveness but faster than you can say Hail Mary, the Patriarch of Rome became the greatest tyrant in the world. Christianity is not strictly monotheistic in nature. At the same time, there is relatively lesser emphasis on religious practices and more on having faith in Jesus. Christianity has resulted in more death and suffering than any other religion.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 02:59 AM
Qrratugai,




How could all religions be equal when you consider your religion to be the correct one?
How could you not consider your religion to be superior to others when you are only following your own religion and not following the religion of others?
If all religions are equally good and deserve equal respect then why do you associate yourself with one and not the others?
If you consider your religion to be the correct one then why are you not sharing the message with others?
If you don't think your religion is superior than other religions then why do you follow it?
Why do you think that you do not need to follow other religions in order to see them as deserving of equal respect, tolerance, and appreciation as your own?
Being a Muslim, how can you not deem one religion superior to the another when the Quran says this explicitly?
Being a Muslim how could you not invite people towards Islam, when the Quran says to do da'wah?
Being Muslim how could you say that all religions are equal when the Quran has declared all other religions to be obsolete?
Being Muslim how could all religions be equal when Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is a universal prophet whereas all other prophets were limited to their people only?

These should be enough for you to indulge on for now.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 03:08 AM
Someone who does not believe in any form of divinity will view all religions as equally false.

My point exactly.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 03:16 AM
My point exactly.

I've edited my previous post, too. :hairy:

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 03:18 AM
^So, you change you mind and say that religion is correct? Oh ok...nice to know. ;)

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 03:21 AM
^So, you change you mind and say that religion is correct? Oh ok...nice to know. ;)

lol that hasn't happened yet. I answered your questions regarding Islam and Christianity. I wanted to see what your next move would be.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 03:23 AM
Oh okay...thought you were being sarcastic...give me a sec, dear brother.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 03:26 AM
Yes, Momin, I have good knowledge about both Islam and Christianity. I have more than just a clue as to what both actually teach. Religion IS my cup of tea. However, the fact is that even Muslims don't agree on what Islamic philosophy is. Anyway, since you want me to post something, I'll do it to satisfy you even though you will naturally reply, 'your knowledge is rudimentary at best and therefore your conclusions about Islam are incorrect'.

Islam preaches strict monotheism. It claims it is the religion of Adam, David, Moses and Jesus. The final prophet and everything revealed to him nullify everything of the past though. The life of the final prophet, his family and his companions are the model for all modern Muslims. However, those lives are filled with acts of selfless charity along with acts of brutal barbarity. Some Muslims choose to follow the former and others, the latter. Islamic practices such as ritual prayers and fasting are to be practiced and not doing so would have worldly and after-world repercussions. The many contradictory Hadith, collected decades after the prophet's death, have resulted in clerics and priests unleashing terror upon innocent people.

Christianity came out of occupied Judea and spread like wildfire after Constantine converted. It initially liberated people from the tyranny of the Old Testament and its priests and preached love and forgiveness but faster than you can say Hail Mary, the Patriarch of Rome became the greatest tyrant in the world. Christianity is not strictly monotheistic in nature. At the same time, there is relatively lesser emphasis on religious practices and more on having faith in Jesus. Christianity has resulted in more death and suffering than any other religion.

The question that comes to mind: is this confusion the reason why you have don't believe in God or subscribe to a particular faith?

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-24-2010, 03:35 AM
Momin, there was confusion for a few years for me. But that was all like 3 or 4 years ago. There has been only certainty since then and I have found the feeling to be truly liberating.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 03:36 AM
How could you be liberated when you are still stuck on earth, while living? How do you define "liberated," dearest brother?

Khan Gul
07-24-2010, 04:37 AM
Qrratugai,
Khwarzey, In order to put an end to this wrangling, the Qur'aan says: "Behold, God has bought of the Faithful their persons and their possessions, offering them Paradise in return...Rejoice, then, in the bargain you have made, for this is the triumph supreme." And the essence of Muhammad's (pbuh) prophetic mission was that: "I am only a mortal man but He who has created the universe has bidden me to bear His Message to you. In order that you might live in harmony with the plan of His creation, He has commanded me to remind you of His existence, omnipotence and omniscience, and to place before you a program of behavior. If you accept this program, follow me."

Not that I don't respect your views about the equality of all religions, however, in the light of this verse from Qur'aan and the message delivered by the Prophet (pbuh) let me ask you a simple question:

Do you as a Muslim believe that the followers of all other religions, by following their own religions, will earn them this "triumph supreme" (Paradise) after death? If your answer is a positive assertion, i.e., yes, then I am afraid, either you or I have not understood the message of Islam correctly and we need to delve deeply about what we believe. Of course, God does not call for blind subservience on the part of human being but rather appeals to his intellect, so I think, this question, is necessary, so that an integrated image of Islam emerges in its finality in our minds.

I know you were very busy responding to all those posts and believe you me I realize it wasn’t easy and must have taken a good deal of your time but I would still appreciate if you’d respond to my above post.
As a Muslim, I respect you for your views whether or not they are in line with the mainstream Muslim beliefs, however, reading all your posts, word by word, correctly or incorrectly, you give me the impression that you claim to be a Muslim yet more or less your views resemble the views of the Great Mughal Emperor, Akbar who invented Deen-i-Ilahi where he attempted to accommodate all religions in this invented Deen of his and as Muslims we feel he went beyond the limit of what was morally or legally acceptable to us Muslims.
I avoided responding to respected Levanye Zalmaye, Muhsina, Gulalai, etc. since they made their stance clear and I respect them and admire them for their honesty and their courage.
As a Muslim, I believe religion is a serious matter and must not be taken lightly for the success or failure of our Akhirat – the unending life, depends upon what we believe and therefore, you need to break this protective shell which you have created around yourself. If you honestly confess Islam to be the true religion, be bold enough to stay a monument to its truth. On the other hand, if you feel, Islam is some man-made religion, say it boldly. No offense intended.

Saifullah
07-24-2010, 10:03 AM
woah....this topic has gone far...i was searchin for my comments and they are way back, i guess theres nothing more i can add to this discussion...lol

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:08 PM
I avoided responding to respected Levanye Zalmaye, Muhsina, Gulalai, etc. since they made their stance clear and I respect them and admire them for their honesty and their courage.

-----

you need to break this protective shell which you have created around yourself. If you honestly confess Islam to be the true religion, be bold enough to stay a monument to its truth. On the other hand, if you feel, Islam is some man-made religion, say it boldly. No offense intended.

Word.

As far as those who admit that Islam is a man-made religion and that God is a fairy-tale are concerned, I don't have a problem with them. As you said it, they should be commended for their open stance.

However, these people don't have the right to mock religion and call the existence of God a fairy-tale. Sure, they may believe that but they should not take the liberty to shove their beliefs down peoples' throats.

I don't have a problem with someone who likes to mock God and make fun of people who adhere to religion; in my eyes, they are just blinded by their hatred.

Being educated does not mean that you have manners.

The whole exercise with respect to Qrratugai was to bring out what she truly believes. It is clear that she does not believe that all religions are equal. She deleted her post, otherwise, you all would have seen it. She believes Islam to be the right religion. Period.

I just feel bad that she is trying to please everyone, even those who mock Islam on this website. She is trying to keep the bond of her "clique" together at the expense of defending what she really believes in, which is that Islam is correct.

She told me via pm, that she was not happy to take sides with those who mock Islam. She just found that they understood her. Sure they understand her: all religions are a mockery to them anyways, hence, equal, despite being different. ;)

My concern is, just as Khan Gul said it, she should express what she feels boldly, and this is what I have been trying to do in this whole thread: for her to be open and not be afraid to lose "friends."

If she feels that Islam is correct (which she does) then she should say it and allow us to question her why she believes that and still maintains that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL.

If she feels that Islam is not correct (which she does not) then the case is closed. Period. It makes sense why she would believe what she is preaching, that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL.

All in all, Qrratugai is not practicing what she is preaching.

All of the above is paraphrasing our pm's and her deleted post.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:50 PM
Yes, not only that but that they are also equal in merit, i.e. neither is one religion superior than the other nor is it inferior.

However, she admitted in the post she deleted that Islam is the correct religion.

The question that comes to mind is that if she believes that Islam is correct then on what basis does she have the audacity to say that all religions are all equal in merit.

She is obviously trying to keep "friends" with everyone even if it means to preach that which she does not belief. She preaches that ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL, but deep inside she believes that ISLAM IS THE CORRECT ONE.

This is a clear contradiction.

She is not practicing what she is preaching.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 01:52 PM
If we are wrong and she is right, and that we have not understood her stance, then I want her to answer the following questions:

Qrratugai,




How could all religions be equal when you consider your religion to be the correct one?
How could you not consider your religion to be superior to others when you are only following your own religion and not following the religion of others?
If all religions are equally good and deserve equal respect then why do you associate yourself with one and not the others?
If you consider your religion to be the correct one then why are you not sharing the message with others?
If you don't think your religion is superior than other religions then why do you follow it?
Why do you think that you do not need to follow other religions in order to see them as deserving of equal respect, tolerance, and appreciation as your own?
Being a Muslim, how can you not deem one religion superior to the another when the Quran says this explicitly?
Being a Muslim how could you not invite people towards Islam, when the Quran says to do da'wah?
Being Muslim how could you say that all religions are equal when the Quran has declared all other religions to be obsolete?
Being Muslim how could all religions be equal when Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is a universal prophet whereas all other prophets were limited to their people only?

These should be enough for you to indulge on for now.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 09:20 PM
Itís a common perception that Islam is a complete way of life and has solution to all the problems of human life where in this world or the Hereafter. I donít believe in this perception and consider Islam only a religion like any other religion but with its own sets of beliefs, modes of worship and moral values and ethical injunctions.

This is your opinion.

If we analyze all the important definitions of the term Religion then we may find that all these definitions have three things in common. These are faith, worship and morality.

I agree.


Islam like any other religion guides its followers in these there spheres but is not a complete system for life but it does not provide complete guidance for other spheres of life like culture, politics, economy, science, technology, philosophy, psychology etc.

How could you say that when the Prophet (saw) started something from scratch and left an empire behind. The Quran says that he (saw) guided by revelation. Further, how can you expect the Quran to say to acquire knowledge but have given you the process before hand. Quran has given all important factors to guide mankind, but has left man to govern for himself. Even the Prophet (saw) was told not to meddle in the lives of people.



We may note that I am not talking of an idea which will harm Islam but if we consider Islam only as a religion it will be in the benefit of Islam itself. This will also solve all the problems Muslims are facing like terrorism, Extremism.

Muslims need to understand how the early Muslims, i.e. first three centuries, practiced Islam. There after it might give away how to survive the 21st Century.

After doing lot of research and discussions I did not find any one who can prove that Islam guide us completely in political, cultural, social, economic, technological, financial, scientific, historical, anthropological, philosophical, psychological, logical, mathematical, artistic, astronomical, commercial, agricultural, ecological, statistical, electronic and other aspects of life. If Islam does not guide us in all these spheres of life then it can only be called as a religion but not as a system or complete way of life. This is why Islam was never implemented as a complete code of life in history. It was not so attractive to people to be adopted or promulgated completely because it lacks guidance for all the different activities of life.

I disagree. The Quran has given valuable guidance. It has simply pointed to the answer and has left the process at the hands of man to discover.

In Islam one has Aqeeda (belief, faith) , ibadat(worship) and Akhlaq(morality) and this is what religion is. A religious person like Muslim should have beliefs in God, prophets, holy books, hereafter etc, then may worship as in the form of prayers, fasting, charity, pilgrimage and then may have some moral codes as not telling lie, not killing etc.

Is that simply for morality purposes?


This is all what religion is but beyond that Islam has nothing to offer. For guidance in other aspects of life we have to resort to other systems and ideologies like democracy, capitalism, liberalism, cultural and social theories and other scientific and technological theories and practices which has nothing to do with Islam and Islam has nothing to do with them.

How well are you versed with the Quran? I take it that you are, otherwise, you would not make such a statement. That leads me to my second question: how do you want the Quran to answer all of this?

Considering Islam as a complete way of life encourages extremism and religious extremism and Wahabism is really a menace. To avoid such evils, the only way is to accept Islam as religion (faith+worship+morals) and not culture, political system, legal system, economic system and source of education.

I totally disgree. Anything can be taken out of context.


Some people like Taliban and other religious political parties struggle for the promulgation of Islamic Political system but Islam as a political system has always been a failure from the time of Abubakar Abassids, Mughals, to Pakistan , Sudan, Somalia , Saudi , Afghanistan , Egypt, Turkey, and Iran of today. Whatever presence it had was because of dictators, monarchs and sultans not because of its inherent political qualities. The very opposition of the so called Political Islam to democracy is a big stigma on its face.

How do you think other political systems emerged?

Islam was a failure in Turkey and today in Iran. Islam can be useful only as a religion (faith+worship+morality) and not at all as a political, cultural or economic system. Today Iran shows it that theocracy and rule of religion canít be a success in this modern world at least. To reach to this conclusion that islam is only a religion ,
I have read many Tafseers or commentaries of Quran and important books of Ahadith and Fiqa. Even I remained a student of the traditional Madrassah of Darse Nizami and have read all the important books on Fiq, sarf wa nahwa, manteq , usool, etc.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they are "using" Islam for their own political agendas?

I have never found that where Islam guide us in all aspects of life as science and technology, Natural and social sciences, mathematics, linguistics, arts and crafts, philosophy, psychology etc etc. Even the legal system of Islam often talked about is just few moral principles and all the punishments like cutting of hands and stoning to death were never implemented as such and will never be implemented.
Some people consider that mere mentioning of Zakat in Quran gives Islam an economic system. Zakat is just a concept of charity like other religions and is a moral notion not an economic system.

Again, why do you want the Quran to explicitly answer this? As for zakar, how much do you understand about it?

The concept of Zakat exists in Islam and in Muslim world since more than 14 centuries but Muslim world presents the worst scenario of the poor parts of the world. The few Arab countries who are rich are not because of Zakat but owing to the natural resources specially petroleum. Look at Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asian countries, African Muslim countries all present worst cases of poverty stricken societies. Thus practically looking at things Zakat could not make Muslim countries prosperous. It might have served few individuals but has never worked as an economic system as Communism or capitalism.

The logical fallacy in your statement is that you have made the Muslims the yard-stick. Are you sure they "practicing" Muslims?

Islam if not taken as only religion will destroy Islam itself as religion. People will start hating if Islam is imposed as a political, economic, cultural or social system. Taliban and Wahabis present the perfect picture of ideal Islam. Who will be ready to accept this kind of Islam? Theoretically speaking Taliban and Wahabis donít talk against Islam. Their mistake is that they consider Islam as a complete way of life and want to impose Islam on society as a complete way of life.

Well, that is we need to educated people to look at Islam from the eyes of the Prophet (saw) not any Ahmad, Mahmud, Kalbir or Maqsud.

Islam if not presented as only religion will destroy all other cultures as itís destroying Pashtunwali. Itís a serious danger to accept Islam as a complete system. This is what all the extremists like Taliban and Wahabis claim and struggle for.

Again, as you have noted, it is a problem of interpretation and forced following.

Some Muslims take Sharia as a system but I would like to clarify that Sharia is the explanation of Islamic rules and regulations but for the religion not for Islam as a system or code of life. As I stress again and again Islam is acceptable as a religion not as a system. Religion is faith, worship and morality not economy, politics, society, law and culture. For Pashtuns if they believe in Allah, worship him by offering prayers, Ramadan etc and observe some moral codes, its ok but their culture and society is Pashtunwali and their politics should be democracy and their economy should be free market economy with state control in few matters and their law should not be against the human rights.

Shariah is not to be practiced by anyone. The Quran guides the Muslims to submit to the law of the land, even if the ruler is not Muslim. Extremist exist everywhere.

If sharia explains how to say prayers, how to observe fasts, how to perform Hajj etc, and if it explains monotheism, beliefs in here after, prophets etc, then its ok, if it says donít tell lie then its ok but beyond that it will be crossing its limits being only a religion and this transgression will create problems as we already observe these problems in the shape of Taliban and dictatorships in Muslim countries. .No Sharia is acceptable if it tries to impose politics, economy and culture. As these were never imposed successfully because its imposition is against the spirit of Islam

Again, you are interpreting the flaws from the practice of the Taliban. They are not the standard for Islam; they do not have the agenda for Muslims.

Some friends say that the perfect Islam can be found in Pashtun areas then why we complain that Pashtuns have some bad customs and traditions? Two things are possible one that there is no perfect Islam in Pashtuns or if there is perfect Islam in Pashtuns then all these evils are because of Islam!!! For me the second one may be truer as these are the Muslim Taliban and Wahabi Mullas who are harsh and cruel. Pashtuns generally are very soft, hospitable, secular, music and dance lovers, cultured people, brave and tolerant, hard working and energetic.

Again, logical fallacy. See above.

No doubt there are few bad customs like SWARA, etc but majority of evils are because of the adoption of extremist Wahabi Islam by Pashtuns. Pashtuns before 1979, before the invasion of the former USSR on Afghanistan and the entailing Jihad were very different from what they are today. This is because of the Wahabi Arabs who changed Pashtuns into religious bigots that now even Arab go there to learn Islam in Pashtun lands as they cant implement Islam in their own Arab countries as all are ruled by dictators, kings and anti women bandits.

You said it yourself: your logic is feeding off one group.

Extremist Islam has done away with Pashtunwali thatís why today we hear that I am Muslim, Pakistani but not Pashtun. The name Pashtun has become a taboo for many so called extremist fundamentalist Muslims. Many traditions of the Prophet Muhamamd are falsely quoted. Muslim may rely more on Quran than on hadith or traditions. Quran also must be reinterpreted in the light of modern day realities.

Again, you have admitted it yourself: it is an interpretation issue.

If these barbaric punishments like stoning to death, or cutting of hands canít be practically implemented then why they are there to be obeyed or acted upon. Basically all these verses of the Holy Quran must me understood contextually and figuratively or metaphorically and not literally as done by the Wahabi, Ahle hadith, Salafi, Deobandi Taliban.

You hit the nail on the head!

Islam was always a failure as a system and complete code of life because we have never seen it promulgated no where except may be for few years at the life time of prophet Muhammad and upto the era of Hazrat Umar. After that we see blood shed among Muslims, even people like Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Ayesha were fighting each other and the grand son of the Prophet was killed by the son of Muyawya, And after that we have monarchies, dictatorship and no where any true Islamic state or welfare state or democratic state. Islam as a religion was always a success and has a very good belief, worship and moral system. There are few guide lines about social, cultural, political, legal and economic aspects of life but all these fall in the category of moral or ethical sphere not a complete system.

You have canceled your first statement with you last and vice versa. How could it have failed when everything today in based on "ethics" anyway? Hence, it is the people themselves to be blamed, not the teaching itself.


If it is announced that for all Muslim countries that there is free entry and no visa is requires for France, , UK, USA , Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, even countries like Brazil, Argentina, Mexico etc , all Muslims will rush towards these countries. Why? Because the so called Islam has given nothing to them for the last 1400 years. As a religion yes but as a system nothing. People are spending thousands of dollars just to get out of their Muslim country and to enter the infidel developed world.

How can you blame Islam for this?

Few Arab countries are prosperous but this is because of natural resources not because of their hard work. They are all lazy snails. Not a single world known scientist is found in all Muslim countries. One tiny Israel can destroy the whole Muslim world in one minute if they really wish so.


Again, where is Islam at fault here?

We impose Islam as a social system and then we have problems like Hijab issue in the modern developed world. France as a state has the right to impose any rule or regulation. As a school can ask for certain uniform, a state can regulate its social system according to its requirements. And wearing Hijab or Niqab or Burqa in this modern era is already redundant and I felicitate Fance, Syria and other countries to discourage this primitive tradition. Covering face is a handicap in driving and other day to day activities. It must be banned and the violators may be punished. The same may be done in all Muslim and non Muslim countries through out the world.

This is your opinion. It is not all correct. Why do you clothe yourself?

I donít want to say here that I am against Islam. I want to further clarify that I am Muslim religiously. I am Pashtun racially, culturally, socially and I am a liberal, democrat etc politically or economically. I am Pakistani or Afghan or American by nationality. We must be clear in our identities. We may not confuse things. This way we can do justice with all and o none will invade the other.

Well, you have indirectly said that, because you do not agree with Quranic principles, or it might be that you are not acquainted with Quranic principles for which I can understand your position. :)

The whole mess that we have is because of this confusion. The illiterate Taliban want to become rulers and judges and police and administrators which is not their job. They may be experts on the issues of how to say prayers or how to observe fasts, or what is monotheism, but they know nothing of the state craft, foreign relations, justice, finance, public administration, management, development, etc.
Similarly if an expert of Political science or Zoology or Medical sciences want to advise on the religious matters will be a mistake. Spiritual and mundane must be separated.

Word. That is why Islam "seems" to not have the answers and "seems" to be a prehistoric teaching in your eyes. :)

Some people think that the mere mentioning of Consultation/shura in Quran gives it a political system. I will once again repeat that Islam as an economic or political model never existed. This consultation is only a moral principle mentioned in Quran but cant be equivalent to a complete political system. It was never practiced. Do you think Umayyads or Abbasids or others used consultations in their political affairs? They were all dictators.

How could you blame Islamic teachings on the practice of people?

Some think that itís the student MUSLIM not the book Islam which is at fault. Islam is not at a fault but Muslims. This example that its fault of the student and not of teacher or book is wrong for Islam. Islam if taken as a book, or teacher equal to a complete system, then this is wrong and this is the main issue I am talking about here. Islam is not a system, its not a teacher, its not a book, Its only a book or teacher for beliefs, worship and morality nothing else. Islam is only a religion nothing more than that. Its not fault of Muslims as students , but its the fault of Muslims to consider Islam as a system. Muslims should read the book of Islam or should learn from the teacher of Islam only in religious affairs not in politics, economics, science, logic, philosophy, etc.

I disagree. One question: how much do you know about early Islamic history?

Islam is good as belief system, as worship system and as moral way of life. Because of Islam we may do good things. There is no harm in it not doing bad things because of Islam. If Islam keeps you away from harmful things its morality and I recognize it but beyond this no. Islam or Taliban as implementers of Islam as a system canít be judges, police, legislators etc at the same time.

What is the purpose of being good? This question will solve your dilemma. :)

Pakistan and Afghanistan are considered to be the best Muslim countries from Islamic point of view. Here Islam as a way of life is mostly practiced but these countries are the most corrupt and poor ones then what benefit islam as a system has given to the people of these countries. No one can tell me any ideal Islamic country in todayís world or in the whole history of Islam may be except upto the era of Hazrat Umar but at that time the development of the Islamic empire was not because of islam as a complete way of life but because of the wise secular policies of the rulers of that time. Islam was always there as a religion but not as a political or economic system.

Where did Islam say to leave secularism?


West has separated religion from politics, economy, culture, society etc and thatís the secret of the development of the West. If Muslims want to be materially prosperous and developed like the West then they must follow the way they got the development other wise there is no way out. Religion can develop you spiritually but not economically or materially.

The West figured this out in the Age of the Renaissance. However, this has been the guideline of the Quran since 1430. Again, you are basing your conclusion on practice of Muslims and not the Quranic teaching.

Laws must be re invented, created and changed according to the circumstances. This is another flaw in extremist Muslim approach that they consider the 1400 years old injunctions ( I donít call them laws as these are not systematic) permanent. They must know that the every thing permanent is this world is the CHANGE. This is the spirit of the reconstruction of the religious thought in Islam as proposed by Dr Iqbal.

Give me one example. You can't just make a statement without backing it up with an example. :)

My description of Islam only as a religion and not as a complete way of life does not mean that I am converted to another religion. I love Islam as a religion but not beyond that. Readers may not be short tempered as by reading these lines may jump to the conclusions that I am a heretic or like the traditional way of Mullas may issue the fatwas of Kufr immediately. I say that Islam was never a political or economic or cultural or social or scientific system and if readers think otherwise may prove me wrong with evidence and may not just issue decrees of infidelity.

Again, your opinion.

I am not preaching any new religion here rather I am trying to separate religion from non religious and secular stuff. For me my religion is Islam which is confined to faith, worship and morality but for other spheres of my life I ll seek guidance from other systems and ideologies like Democracy and capitalism.

Where does it say in Islam not to separate the two?

Few years of the Prophet or upto the era of Hazrat Umar and then few years more when Arab Muslims were ruling Spain first does not count much in the more than 1400 years of Islam. Second in all these governments only the religion of Islam was not applied but also the local Arab practices were too involved. The religion was kept limited to religious affairs and for day to day affairs other models and practices were adopted. Also at that time there was no the present day concept of democracy and such was not applicable.

Whose fault is this?

Billions of people were attracted either by sword or by the religion as the people had no other option but to embrace Islam or they liked the religious beliefs, mode of worship or moral standards of the Arab Muslims of that time. At that time Arabs had the power and thatís why their religion or social system and culture also had the dominance. But that was Arab culture and society not the religion of Islam which was adopted by the conquered nations. And yes people like today were deceived by the slogan that Arab culture is equivalent to the religion and the people had to even adopt the language, dress and other social patterns of Arabs in the name of Islam. The religion of Islam may be learnt from Quran and Sunna but the religion. We may not mix it with other spheres of life.

Again, logical fallacy.

Remember, the sword will bend will make the head bow, but will not bend the heart. ;)



Islam as a system in books is one thing and Islam in practice is another thing. You may find some aspects of politics, economics, culture etc in books with moral underpinning but practically you donít see it as the main purpose of Islam is being a religion to cater for the beliefs, worship and some personal morality of its believers not to make them politicians, scientists, economists, poets, writers, technicians, doctors, engineers etc . All these belong to secular or non religious aspects of life.

This is clearly only your view. :)

Once these Taliban and other terrorists and extremists understand this point, they wont kill innocent people for the implementation of the so called Sharia which has political, economic and cultural underpinnings, rather they will concentrate on the spiritual aspects as faith, worshipping and morality like other religions as Christianity, Buddhism, etc which only and only attend to religious affairs of its believers and donít indulge in politics etc. Islamic beliefs, modes of worship and morality may be presented better than other religions but the political and other aspects presented by Taliban are not better as these are not Islamic because of the simple reason that Islam is only a religion and not beyond that.

Again, logical fallacy.

I never compare Islam to Democracy or other ideologies. My basic point is that Islam is religion and Democracy is a political system and both are two different things. For religions we have Islam, for politics we have democracy and for culture we have Pashtunwali. As already emphasized Islam never give us a complete system in politics, economics etc. Islam give us only few guidelines for politics, economics etc which have mainly moral underpinnings. Quran like Old testament and New Testament have some moral principles but not political or economic systems.

The more I read the more I am concluding that you are NOT well versed with the Quran.

Some Muslims think that why we donít go for the divine Sharia and why we follow human made systems like Democracy. But Democracy is a better political system not a religion and which is neither divine nor perfect. Religion is divine but Shariah only guides you in beliefs, matters of worship and morality and few basic guidelines for other spheres of life from ethical point of view. Democracy can be evolved according to the needs of the people but Sharia may not be changed because its divine. We donít need changes in Sharia because it covers only beliefs, worship and morality which are permanent concepts as compared to political, economic or other issues.

I have answered this above.

Christians have made Christianity only a religion and you see how developed they are. We Muslims must follow others in their good things. Islam was never implemented as a complete political or economic system specially after Hazrat Umar because its not meant beyond a religion. The whole progress of Islam is in the sector of religion not other fields. In Spain it was a Muslim rule but it was not the rule of Islam. If you consider the dictators of Umayyads and Abbasids etc as your caliphs and heroes then it will be a big stigma on the face of Islam. They were just Arab rulers and used Islam for the expansion of their empire. Yes the religious Sufis and scholars attracted the people towards the religion not to the system of the hereditary dictators.

You are repeating yourself.

If we accept other cultures and sciences separately and donít mix it with religion of Islam then I have no need to discuss this issue further. This is the point which I want to explain. Accept other cultures and sciences and systems where they suit Muslims. Yes a Muslim as a Muslim by religion may not accept any thing against Islamic beliefs, Modes of worship and morality.

Where does it say we can't? Again, I think that you have not read the Quran with an open spirit.

The Prophet of Islam gave a spiritual or religious system but he never trained people in politics, economics, sciences or technology. Muslims have problems in this world because they donít accept or implement the modern ideas of education and politics. For religious non compliance they will have spiritual problems or the punishment in the life after death but the worldly matters may not be amalgamated with the religious or otherworldly matters. If Muslims and Pashtuns maintain this balance in mundane and spiritual or religious aspects of life then they will attain the success what the developed world has achieved. Muslims can present the best model to the world by being successful being good Muslims spiritually and religiously and better human beings politically, economically culturally, technologically like other developed nations. They will be thus better than the West by being successful in both spiritual and mundane spheres of life.

Is morality good? If so, why?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 09:24 PM
Osho wrora, dearest member,

I read your essay. You repeat yourself a lot and you seem to want everything to be given to you on a platter and fed to you with a golden spoon. I mean this in the kindest possible way.

I want to discuss your essay with you.

The questions that I find most appropriate for our discussion, based on your essay are:


What is the purpose of the institution of religion?
What is the purpose of the institution of a society?
Where does God fit here?

muhsina
07-24-2010, 09:50 PM
afghan lady

what makes you believe that all religions are not equal [in believing in assumed concepts which have no scientific proof] and even dare say that Islam is the best.
Do you have any argument for your convictions or its just your faith based on some misunderstoof verse of QURAN?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 09:57 PM
[3:19] Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam...

[3:85] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.

[5:3]This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

[6:125] So, whomsoever Allah wishes to guide, He expands his bosom for the acceptance of Islam; and as to him whom He wishes to let go astray, He makes his bosom narrow and close, as though he were mounting up into the skies. Thus does Allah inflict punishment on those who do not believe.

[39:22]Is he then whose bosom Allah has opened for the acceptance of Islam, so that he possesses a light from his Lord, like him who is groping in the darkness of disbelief ? Woe, then, to those whose hearts are hardened against the remembrance of Allah! They are in manifest error.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:00 PM
Qrratugai, why are you hiding? You seem to be eager to agree with whomsoever disagrees that Islam is correct. Yet, you claim that is Islam is correct. Contradiction much?

There is not harm in admitting you are wrong. Pride will not take you anywhere. :)

muhsina
07-24-2010, 10:24 PM
[3:19] Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam...

[3:85] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.

[5:3]This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

[6:125] So, whomsoever Allah wishes to guide, He expands his bosom for the acceptance of Islam; and as to him whom He wishes to let go astray, He makes his bosom narrow and close, as though he were mounting up into the skies. Thus does Allah inflict punishment on those who do not believe.

[39:22]Is he then whose bosom Allah has opened for the acceptance of Islam, so that he possesses a light from his Lord, like him who is groping in the darkness of disbelief ? Woe, then, to those whose hearts are hardened against the remembrance of Allah! They are in manifest error.




MNMN

What ignorant way is this that you refer to your own source for your own superiority. If others believed in your source whatwas the debate about then?

Dont you understand that a Hindu or Jain etc may also comes up with a similar list in which his religion is regarded the best,true and complete. What proof will you have.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:27 PM
Were your "ignorant" words meant for yourself? You asked:


Do you have any argument for your convictions or its just your faith based on some misunderstoof verse of QURAN?




By the following statement, you have solved are issue:

MNMN

What ignorant way is this that you refer to your own source for your own superiority. If others believed in your source whatwas the debate about then?

Dont you understand that a Hindu or Jain etc may also comes up with a similar list in which his religion is regarded the best,true and complete. What proof will you have.


I absolutely agree with you. Hence, all religions are not equal. ;)


Thank you resolving our dilemma. ;)

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:34 PM
Qrratugai, any final words? The case was and has been solved. If you were not going to agree with us, then at least now one of your own has solved it.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:37 PM
I usually hate posting oneliners in such serious discussions but I will admit I am guilty for it right now.

Meemwawmeem,

That was one of the best refutations on PashtunForums. May Allah keep you safe.

I am a follower of Hadhrat Muhammad Rasulullah ibn Abdullah (saw).

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:40 PM
I am shocked at her ignoring a discussion after making claims.

I had utmost respect for her but to see her make claims and not being able to back them up or refusing to utter a word when questioned says a lot.

PF is a platform for discussions I have been criticized in the politics section and I admit at times I was wrong. One should not let their Ego and pride get the best of them.

If you can't back up what you said, say so. If you as a Muslim think all Religions are equal, expect scholarly questions.

Could not have said it better myself.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:44 PM
Ignoring respected and highly regarded members like Khan Gul and Meemwawmeem is an insult to me.

I place them both quite high in the PF ranks.

Dear brother, I am a nobody. Nothing at all. However, I know one thing:

None is worthy of worship except Allah; Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

I live by this and I argue by this. That is my conviction.

I have utmost respect for all religions. And this respect is not because of my own goodness. I respect other religions because it is a commandment of the Quran. Because I love the Book of Allah, I will respect other religions. If it were up to me, I don't know how I would have treated the followers of other religions. Islam has saved me from this would-be error.

muhsina
07-24-2010, 10:56 PM
Were your "ignorant" words meant for yourself? You asked:By the following statement, you have solved are issue: I absolutely agree with you. Hence, all religions are not equal. ;)
Thank you resolving our dilemma. ;)

Take it easy boy. In your juvenile excitment level, I think you dont know what is an argument and how is it first understood and then how is it refuted.

I asked you what proof do you have that your religion is superior [which means that if you cant provide one it means all are equal] so you quoted the verses of quran. I told you that it is illogical to quote from your own source as the other person will not believe in your source so you have to adopt some nuetral or areed upon way to prove that your relgion is superior and if you cant prove it that means all the religions are on the same footiung and hence you should not brag about your relgion. To that you are drawing some conclusion which no sane person who knows abc of logic will corroborate.

So prove that your religion is superior from nuetral sources [not quoting your own source [quran] otherwise accept that all religions are equal.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 10:59 PM
I was talking in terms of this site you have indeed ontributed a lot.

Meemwawmeem, I am just disappointed in her ignoring to accept that she was maybe wrong. It doesn't click to me.

Momin I don't think all religions are equal.

I respect all Religions but to say something as serious as they are all equal means you are committing kuffar.

doesn't Allah say only Islam and the Quran brings you to heaven? Since when did Judaism take Muslims to heaven?



^Word.

Religions are not equal.

A Jew hates and curses Christians. They call the mother of Hadhrat Isa (as) a prostitute, God forbid.

A Christian claims that you cannot be saved unless you accept that Jesus as God.

A Muslim says that Hadhrat Isa (as) was a true prophet and that his mother, Hadhrat Mariam, was a pious lady. A Muslim says that Jesus was not God, but only a prophet.

Now you tell me, how are they equal, just looking that Abrahamic faiths?

muhsina
07-24-2010, 11:03 PM
I was talking in terms of this site you have indeed ontributed a lot.

Meemwawmeem, I am just disappointed in her ignoring to accept that she was maybe wrong. It doesn't click to me.

Momin I don't think all religions are equal.

I respect all Religions but to say something as serious as they are all equal means you are committing kuffar.

doesn't Allah say only Islam and the Quran brings you to heaven? Since when did Judaism take Muslims to heaven?


Aseer

The Jains and Hindus believe that their eeshwar will take them to swarag [jannat]. You also suffer from the same logical fallacy which MWMWM is suffering from. I dont mind who is right or wrong but your argument should be sound.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:06 PM
Take it easy boy. In your juvenile excitment level, I think you dont know what is an argument and how is it first understood and then how is it refuted.

I asked you what proof do you have that your religion is superior [which means that if you cant provide one it means all are equal] so you quoted the verses of quran. I told you that it is illogical to quote from your own source as the other person will not believe in your source so you have to adopt some nuetral or areed upon way to prove that your relgion is superior and if you cant prove it that means all the religions are on the same footiung and hence you should not brag about your relgion. To that you are drawing some conclusion which no sane person who knows abc of logic will corroborate.

So prove that your religion is superior from nuetral sources [not quoting your own source [quran] otherwise accept that all religions are equal.

This quote of yours is enough to answer your own childish question:


Dont you understand that a Hindu or Jain etc may also comes up with a similar list in which his religion is regarded the best,true and complete. What proof will you have.

The point, as you have mentioned, is that every religion claims that theirs is correct. That is proof enough that religions are not equal. Hence, it leave man the task to search.

Further, why I am not allowed to use my own scripture to prove that my religion claims superiority?

My question to you, Muhsinah, as a Muslim (I am assuming you are a Muslim), do you believe that Islam is correct?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:09 PM
Aseer

The Jains and Hindus believe that their eeshwar will take them to swarag [jannat]. You also suffer from the same logical fallacy which MWMWM is suffering from. I dont mind who is right or wrong but your argument should be sound.


It does not matter which one is right or which one is wrong. The point of the matter is that each claims to be superior, how could they all be superior? This is the reason why man is left to search for truth, no?

Further, Islam is the only religion that claims universality. Show me any other religion that claims universality?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:13 PM
Muhsina, is not a Muslim??? WHAT???

Qrratugai, shame on you.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:14 PM
I thought she was, because she mentioned to Afghanlady, that she might have misunderstood a verse.

Thank you, shlombay.


Do you have any argument for your convictions or its just your faith based on some misunderstoof verse of QURAN?

muhsina
07-24-2010, 11:17 PM
Dear MWMWM
I would urge you to believe in whatever you believe but please read my post again and again.You need help buddy.
You see dreamweaver and adobe photoshop is one thing which you are good at but you need to honestly atleast understand what is being said. No more arguments till you prove that ISLAM is superior from nuetral sources for reasons I have mentioned in my post. If you cant then accept all religions are equal.
Thank you.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:18 PM
Dear MWMWM
I would urge you to believe in whatever you believe but please read my post again and again.You need help buddy.
You see dreamweaver and adobe photoshop is one thing which you are good at but you need to honestly atleast understand what is being said. No more arguments till you prove that ISLAM is superior from nuetral sources for reasons I have mentioned in my post. If you cant then accept all religions are equal.
Thank you.

Why would I need neutral sources?

Is not the fact that all religions claim superiority enough to show that they are not equal. What other proof do you want? That was your own argument. no?

So, how is it possible to find neutral sources? Then, the next request of yours will be to find other neutral sources that prove other religions correct. This will go in circles.

Do you see the flaw in your logic?

Don't let pride get in the way?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:23 PM
ofcourse not. She is one of the most educated members on PF but she is not Muslim.

notice the pattern? She thanks Gulalai, Muhsina and they all said Islam is not the truth. I noticed this about her back in March. I spoke with a few other people who she is close with and they all verified my claims.

Abu Jahl was known as Abul Hakam. ;)

I don't have problems with Qrratugai believing whatever it is that she wants, but her views are not Islamic.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:25 PM
Muhsina khore,

Why don't you ask Qrratugai why she is a Muslim. This should also solve the issue.

She must be a Muslim because she thinks it to be better than other religions. no?

So, Qrratugai, come forward and tell us why you are a Muslim. You will be helping your friend, a lot.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:27 PM
Muhsina Khor,

You are right from a non-Muslim point of view they are all wrong equally.

but Qrratugai is a Muslim who wants to one day even writes about Islam and for her to say the same unIslamic thing like you did is unacceptable. She says she is Muslim. Being Muslim means following the Quran and believing the Quran is superior to the Vedas.

the minute you say Quran is more powerful than Vedas Islam can never equal any Religion. Because we are biased as Muslims we follow Islam.

Beautiful point.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:28 PM
If all religions are not equal then why does Qrratagai call herself a Muslim, Muhsina?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:29 PM
Muhsina, you ridiculed us for believing in Islam and calling ourselves Muslims because we believe it to be superior. Yet, you have failed to pose the same question from your friend: why does she call herself a Muslim and not "all-faiths" instead.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:36 PM
Meemwawmeemnoon, If she doesn't want to answer she is probably not Muslim like her buddies I guess. Just let it be, the questions you are asking her will force her views to be contradicted. I know what you are doing and she doesn't want to fall into the trap cause she knows her claims were wrong. Doesnt the silence mean anything to you?


As to the topic from a non-Muslim point of view I agree. From a Muslimah like myself I can write a book on how I disagree.

You are wise my beloved sister. I wish I could give more "thank yous."

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-24-2010, 11:58 PM
This thread really showed who Qrratagai really is. I never thought that I would doubt her being a Muslim, despite disagreeing with her on many issues. NEVER...

I just thought we were disagreeing on the intricate aspects of the some issues.

I am so shocked and awed...

I know this is but a forum, we don't know each other, but to pollute Islam with semantics because of a good command of English is really heart-breaking.

Don't waste your energy and time, go and invest your energy and time somewhere more productive. You could never bring Islam down, not even from within.

Irshad Manji is the scholar on Islam now, in the West. Islam is still standing, she has not been able to bring it down, just as Salman Rushdie was not able to. We could go back into history, and no one has been able to bring it down.

Don't try...

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-25-2010, 12:12 AM
يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِؤُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُونَ


[61:8]They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with the breath of their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, even if the disbelievers hate it.

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ

[61:9] He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, even if those who associate partners with God hate it.

Khan Gul
07-25-2010, 02:43 AM
I asked you what proof do you have that your religion is superior [which means that if you cant provide one it means all are equal] so you quoted the verses of quran. I told you that it is illogical to quote from your own source as the other person will not believe in your source so you have to adopt some nuetral or areed upon way to prove that your relgion is superior and if you cant prove it that means all the religions are on the same footiung and hence you should not brag about your relgion. To that you are drawing some conclusion which no sane person who knows abc of logic will corroborate.

So prove that your religion is superior from nuetral sources [not quoting your own source [quran] otherwise accept that all religions are equal.

Muhsina,
I feel Qrratugai is a good human being and a good Muslim and that my friends were too quick to pass judgments.
Now, regarding your post above, perhaps you fail to realize that the debate was between Muslims. One claiming all religions to be equal while others refuting this claim. So, your post would have made sense if the debate was between agnostic/atheist and Muslims. Anyway, from a believerís point of view Shlombay has answered you beautifully. Let me quote him again:

ďIslam from a believers point of view is superior because we have faith and believe in it. If I'm not Muslim I will like Muhsina say they are either all right or all wrong why? Cause I think they are all equally unimportant.

but since I am a Muslim and I Follow Islam I can never say they are all equal.Ē
Why I believe Islam is superior to all other world religions is because I am a Muslim and I must believe this to remain a Muslim. Secondly, Muhsina, again from a believer's point of view, there are only three integral views of the world: the religious, the materialistic, and the Islamic. All variety of ideologies, philosophies, and teachings from the oldest time up to now can be reduced to one of these three basic world views. The first (Christianity) takes as its starting point the existence of the spirit, the second (materialism) the existence of matter, and the third (Islamic) the simultaneous existence of spirit and matter. If only matter exists, materialism would be the only consequent philosophy. On the contrary, if the spirit exists, then man also exists, and manís life would be senseless without a kind of religion and morality. Islam is the name for the unity of spirit and matter, the highest form of which is man himself. The human life is complete only if it includes both the physical and the spiritual desires of the human being. All manís failures are either because of the religious denial of manís biological needs or the materialistic denial of manís spiritual desires.

Keeping in mind the main point, we can say Islam means first to understand and to admit the primeval dualism of the world and then to overcome it. As Islam coincides with the very essence of life this is the reason why we say Islam is not equal to but superior to all other world religions.

Roshina
07-25-2010, 03:04 AM
Why I believe Islam is superior to all other world religions is because I am a Muslim and I must believe this to remain a Muslim.

Secondly, Muhsina, again from a believer's point of view, there are only three integral views of the world: the religious, the materialistic, and the Islamic. All variety of ideologies, philosophies, and teachings from the oldest time up to now can be reduced to one of these three basic world views. The first (Christianity) takes as its starting point the existence of the spirit, the second (materialism) the existence of matter, and the third (Islamic) the simultaneous existence of spirit and matter. If only matter exists, materialism would be the only consequent philosophy. On the contrary, if the spirit exists, then man also exists, and man’s life would be senseless without a kind of religion and morality. Islam is the name for the unity of spirit and matter, the highest form of which is man himself. The human life is complete only if it includes both the physical and the spiritual desires of the human being. All man’s failures are either because of the religious denial of man’s biological needs or the materialistic denial of man’s spiritual desires.

Keeping in mind the main point, we can say Islam means first to understand and to admit the primeval dualism of the world and then to overcome it. As Islam coincides with the very essence of life this is the reason why we say Islam is not equal to but superior to all other world religions.

Thank you for your explanation! THIS is what I was looking for, a reason for a Muslim to claim that Islam is superior to all others (though, of course, followers of other religions, especially in theological studies who know what they're talking about and who have studied the whole superiority versus inferiority of certain religions over others in depth, will justify that theirs is superior for reasons X, Y, and Z -- which is exactly what makes them all equal, since it's a belief and not a universal fact. And since it's not a fact, it doesn't prove one religion's superiority over others, since all can argue this, but it's the argument the believers of that religion can use to justify the imagined superiority of their own religion).

Again, manana for the explanation! Khwdey mo jwandee lara!

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-25-2010, 11:45 AM
Thank you for your explanation! THIS is what I was looking for, a reason for a Muslim to claim that Islam is superior to all others (though, of course, followers of other religions, especially in theological studies who know what they're talking about and who have studied the whole superiority versus inferiority of certain religions over others in depth, will justify that theirs is superior for reasons X, Y, and Z -- which is exactly what makes them all equal, since it's a belief and not a universal fact. And since it's not a fact, it doesn't prove one religion's superiority over others, since all can argue this, but it's the argument the believers of that religion can use to justify the imagined superiority of their own religion).

Again, manana for the explanation! Khwdey mo jwandee lara!

Here we go again.

That is not what Khan Gul meant.

If you are going based on studies, then Existence of God is not a universal fact.

There are people who deny His Existence through logical arguments and there are people who accept His Existence through logical arguments.

So, are you saying that that those who believe that God exists and those who don't believe that God exists are equal?

The fact of the matter is that God does exist, it is a universal fact. A UNIVERSAL FACT. He exists and He has revealed Himself by revealing a book in which He has literally spoken. The Quran is the literal word of God. In it He has said that Islam is the only religion in His sight.

Now, for you to say that all religions are equal would mean that you would have to:


Reject that the God of Islam is the correct God.
If the God of Islam is not the correct God, then the Quran is false.
If the Quran is false, then it is a false claim that it is making by claiming that Islam is the only religion acceptable in the sight of Allah.


Come on...get a grip on yourself.

The fact that a Muslim claims that Islam is right and a Hindu claims that Hinduism is right and Jew claims that Judaism is right is proof enough to show that they are not equal.

Khan Gul made it clear that, by quoting Shlombay, that as per those who reject religion they are all equal. If you believe that all religions are equal, which you have the right to, it means that you reject religion. Otherwise, it would be contradictory for you to adhere to one and not all of them. Those who reject religion are honest. They could careless for religion, hence, all religions are equal to them: no religion appeals to them.

Just so you know, Khan Gul did not say that all religions are equal. Don't flatter yourself.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-25-2010, 11:58 AM
My question to you, Qrratugai, do you believe that Allah is the real God?

Toramana
07-25-2010, 12:10 PM
Khan Gul, you say Islam is superior because it coincides with the essence of life. Now can I ask you what exactly is the "essence of life" you are talking about and how does Islam coincide it? Please give me a universal definition.

Your argument sounds to me like below.

"Because I live in this house, so it is the most beautifull of all."

This is a childish argument because if all religions claim they are superior to each other, then who is going to decide validity of the claims? Obviously, things will ultimately boil down to either the superiority of one religion over the other is decided ratiobally or all religious people destroy each other in mutual hostility eminating from their hollow sense of superiority.

That is secularism has been chosen which says "keep it in personal domain".

Badlun
07-25-2010, 01:10 PM
As for as I know Qrratugai is one of the most intelligent, knowledgable , positive minded and honest member of this site. Look at her greatness that insoÁpite of being a Muslim she give due respect to all other religions of the world. This superb tolerance and intellectual honesty should be appreciated. In spite of all counter arguments, discouraging remarks, fatwas, and opinions of indoctorinated people, she is still there like a rock defending what she really believes in.

At the same time she is reconciliatory and give due attention to any reasonable point rasied by any other member. Compare the way she takes the argument and the manner some members with their bulleying attitude , obscurantist ideas, approach of bigots and rigid behaviour. Qrratugai is no doubt a shining star of this site and all of us must be proud of this brilliant genius , a role model for Pashtun women and men at the same time. I dont feel hesitation to express this openly that so far I have not seen a great Pashtun wpman like her at least in the virtual world of Internet.

Badlun
07-25-2010, 01:22 PM
About the topic , as I explained earlier , the issue is not that Islam is superior or inferior to other religion for all the human beings.For all the believers in their respective religions , their own religion is superior to the other an dthats why they believe in that particular religion other wise all the believer human beings would be all Muslims or Chritians or adherents to other world religions.

The question is Islam is a religion like any other religion BEING A RELIGION and is not a complete system which give us guidance in other spheres of life beyond beliefs, worship and morality. Islam has no political, economic, cultural, scientific, social, philosophical etc guidance like a complete system and for this matter we have to seek guidance from other systems like democracy etc. If we separate religious from non religious then taliban like people wont be our rulers but their role will be limited only to religious part of our lives. They wont be our rulers, economists and wont impose their culture , social values and education system on us.

Yes for me being a Muslim islam is the best of all religions thats why I am a Muslim otherwise I should not call my self as a Muslim but at the same time I give the right to a Christian for example to consider his or her religion as the best for him or her. I cant impose on non Muslims that they must call islam the best Religion for them too. As Qrratugai well said all this is normative, personal, subjective , private and not a scientific fact.

Saifullah
07-25-2010, 01:38 PM
osho firstly why do you state the obvious? A christian obviously feels his religion is superior to others, that is why he is following it. Same a muslim obviously feels his religion is superior to others that is why he follows it. This is like the 100th time in this topic people have done that stating things that nobody could disagree with even a child wouldn't.

The question to ask is millions of people think like that, but how do we explain the people who change their religion? This is due to discussion, open minded-ness and a bit of reasoning. Islam itself promotes these things and like i have said before the Quran is not a set of comandments, it is not a list like the ten comandments. It was very easy for Allah to send a book with do's and dont's...But instead when one reads the Quran how many times has Allah asked us a question. Why? To get your mind to think because when one asks a question to somebody, it makes them think. He says look at the creation around you, is it possible that it came by chance? Study your body, study, IQRA (READ) and so on.

When a knowledgeable christian and a knowledgeable muslim have a debate, like you see Zakir Naik everytime he is on top of his opponent. Why is that? Ahmad Deedat was always on top of his opponents, the reason being that Islam is superior to all religions and Allah made a challenge to human beings to make something like Quran even a few ayats like it. As a muslim we challenge all religions to try to show us Islam is not true. WE dont need to be scared. If you feel your religion is superior, based upon wat?

Based upon facts. If a person on the street tells me he knows more anatomy than me. Based on what? If i know that I am superior than him in anatomy, i will say lets have a challenge who can answer the most questions. Then in the end one will be inferior and one will be superior. It is not possible that both will be the same after a challenge.

So please use this brain of yours, it is quite simple yet its taken more than 30 pages for you guys and still you are going round in circles. Equal this equal that. SPEAK FACTS.

You talk about Islam, well show us Islam. I dont wanna know about your version of islam based on your whims and desires. I dont follow osho islam, i dont follow qrat Islam i follow Islam based on my scriptures. SO when you wanna discuss Islam give me quotes.

Osho claims Islam has no political, economic, cultural, scientific etc. (which dont make sense first because you never completed your sentence). And if you just open the Quran it says do not rule by other than Allahs law. What is that supposed to mean? RULE is a simple english word meaning to govern as in a leader. Yet osho is claiming something other than what the Quran is teaching. It is irrational to think that a religion from Allah will come and it will not entail all matters related to life and how to live. What kind of religion comes and just based upon worship.

All matters of life is related to ibadat (worship). When you treat your neigbour kindly that is ibadat. Ibadat is not limited to mosques. Scholars role in life is not limited to writing books, when their society is messed up they have a duty to try to do something. Otherwise they are just a joke, what use of knowledge when you cannot make a change or 'try' to make a change for the betterment of society.

There is a clear ayat in the Quran enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Many times it says this, Allah cursed the jews because they abandoned this act. What is the meaning of this ayat, it again goes against your concept of selfishness. Imposing is one thing and making others understand is another.

You have been imposed many rules in the west, you cannot pass a red light, you cannot park on double yellow line, you cannot drive without insurance. IMPOSED! All rules of lands have to be imposed, otherwise you are living on la la land. Rules have to be imposed otherwise they are not rules. When you go to class a rule is not to talk in class. You want to talk as much as you want, you feel like this is being imposed upon you, but thats the RULE, whether you like it or not, is irrelevant.

Saifullah
07-25-2010, 01:44 PM
If you cant read all of the above i will summarise in a few sentences.

If one claims something is superior to the other, you have to prove it. Christians should prove their religion is word of God, Jews also and hindus and muslims. With all these religions debating and challenging one another, at the end of it if everyone is honest one religion can only claim to be superior. Not all will be superior that is impossible.

Claiming one thing is different than proving one thing!!! So dont tell me about what people claim, that oh my religion is superior bla bla bla.

Badlun
07-25-2010, 02:23 PM
This is your opinion.

Yes this is my opinion and the readers have the full right to agree or disgree to what I opine.



I agree.




How could you say that when the Prophet (saw) started something from scratch and left an empire behind. The Quran says that he (saw) guided by revelation. Further, how can you expect the Quran to say to acquire knowledge but have given you the process before hand. Quran has given all important factors to guide mankind, but has left man to govern for himself. Even the Prophet (saw) was told not to meddle in the lives of people.

This is exactly what I tried to express in my article. I consider the Prophet to be a Prophet of Islam as a religion as well as a great Arab leader who gave an Arab empire to the Arab Muslims. I agree that Quran does talk of few other aspects of life beyond religion like law, society, culture. science, politics, economics etc but first these few injunctions does not make Islam a complete Political, economic or other system. All these injunctions basically have moral underpinings and Ethics being part of Religion along with faith and worship is well understood. I fully agree with your words that Quran has left man to govern for himself. Even the Prophet (saw) was told not to meddle in the lives of people. This govering for him self or her self is what is not Religion and this not meddling in lives of people is what I call no religion.





Muslims need to understand how the early Muslims, i.e. first three centuries, practiced Islam. There after it might give away how to survive the 21st Century.

Beyond the first 30 years of Islam , I dont see any model political or economic or social etc Islam. Umayyads, Abassids etc all in the first 3 centuries were all dictators, corrupt and not practising Muslims even by religion. The only era which can be followed religiously an dnon religiously is upto the last Pious Caliph Hazrat Ali and few years of people like Umar bin Abdul Aziz. But all the reforms for example of Hazrat Umar were both in religion(faith, worship, morality) but also in secular or non religious stuff. What Muslims did in first 3 centuries is not necesarily the religion of Islam. They also did secular or non religious things too and also whatever they did in the first 3 centuries were not all good. they killed each other and practised many other evils too. Yes I salute to the religious scholars like Imam Jafar sadiq, the four Sunni Imams, etc and Sufis but they all struggled in the religious part not in the political or other spheres of life. They were not rulers as taliban want but were religious scholars.



I disagree. The Quran has given valuable guidance. It has simply pointed to the answer and has left the process at the hands of man to discover.

Yes as ealier said Quran does give few guidance tips but is not a system. Thats why we have to resort to other sources for guidance as in politics etc. Quran mainly concentrates on religion on beliefs, morality and worship not on politics, economics, society, culture, science etc.
.

Is that simply for morality purposes?

Yes morality is the driving force behind all these non religious injunctions other wise Quran might have covered these secular aspects of life in the samw details as it has covered the religion i.e. faith, morality and worship. If Quran talks of politics its mainly because of the moral part of politics not the technical part of politics or economics.



How well are you versed with the Quran? I take it that you are, otherwise, you would not make such a statement. That leads me to my second question: how do you want the Quran to answer all of this?

I have read the Quran many times with translation and exegesis. I have read tafseers like Ibne kasir, Muraful Quran, Tafheemul Quran etc. I understand Arabic and I am fully impressed from the language and message of Quran. Its really a divine book and the words cant be of a human being. I am also impressed from the way Quran has tackled all the religious issues of faith, worship and morality in such a detail and has left other aspects of life to human beings to explore according to the needs of the time. At the same time Quran has given very few very basic rules for other aspects of life for Muslims as limits with moral tinge so that ,Muslims may not transgress these moral values like justice, honesty, etc while devising a political or economic or other system. But for religioous part Quran has given all the details because these cant be made by man. man cant make the beliefs , modes of worship and the religious part of morality.



I totally disgree. Anything can be taken out of context.

Can you please tell me why you totally disgree here?




How do you think other political systems emerged?

All political system have their own history of evolution. For this we need a separate discusssion or we can read each political ssytem in detail. For me democracy is the best political system and we shall have soon a sepaarte article on democracy for Pashtuns and Muslims.



Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they are "using" Islam for their own political agendas?

Exactly. They are using the religion of Islam for their political, economic, cultural , social and other agendas. In this one sentence you have given the epitome of my whole article, I am impressed. They use Islam which is only a religion for politics etc too. Thats why we have problems like taliban and wahabis.


Again, why do you want the Quran to explicitly answer this? As for zakar, how much do you understand about it?

Quran has mentioned zakat as it should have mentioned it. Its a moral concept helping out poors by rich. I have studies zakat in detail. We can have separate discussion on it.



The logical fallacy in your statement is that you have made the Muslims the yard-stick. Are you sure they "practicing" Muslims?

Some Muslims are not practicing even of the religion but others want them to pratcise islam as a political or other systems



Well, that is we need to educated people to look at Islam from the eyes of the Prophet (saw) not any Ahmad, Mahmud, Kalbir or Maqsud.



Again, as you have noted, it is a problem of interpretation and forced following.



Shariah is not to be practiced by anyone. The Quran guides the Muslims to submit to the law of the land, even if the ruler is not Muslim. Extremist exist everywhere.



Again, you are interpreting the flaws from the practice of the Taliban. They are not the standard for Islam; they do not have the agenda for Muslims.



Again, logical fallacy. See above.



You said it yourself: your logic is feeding off one group.



Again, you have admitted it yourself: it is an interpretation issue.



You hit the nail on the head!



You have canceled your first statement with you last and vice versa. How could it have failed when everything today in based on "ethics" anyway? Hence, it is the people themselves to be blamed, not the teaching itself.




How can you blame Islam for this?



Again, where is Islam at fault here?



This is your opinion. It is not all correct. Why do you clothe yourself?



Well, you have indirectly said that, because you do not agree with Quranic principles, or it might be that you are not acquainted with Quranic principles for which I can understand your position. :)



Word. That is why Islam "seems" to not have the answers and "seems" to be a prehistoric teaching in your eyes. :)



How could you blame Islamic teachings on the practice of people?



I disagree. One question: how much do you know about early Islamic history?

I have read islamic history in all possible details



What is the purpose of being good? This question will solve your dilemma. :)

Good is what is not bad in the eyes of God, indivisual, society and state. Good is what you as a person feel acceptable, and then as a society , as a state. When you dont violate your religion, your state law and may be your family and society. We can have a separate discussion on this.



Where did Islam say to leave secularism?

If islam says not to leave secularism then thats why I wrote in my article. Islam itself promotes secularism.



The West figured this out in the Age of the Renaissance. However, this has been the guideline of the Quran since 1430. Again, you are basing your conclusion on practice of Muslims and not the Quranic teaching.



Give me one example. You can't just make a statement without backing it up with an example. :)
I ll write on it separately with examples


Again, your opinion.



Where does it say in Islam not to separate the two?



Whose fault is this?



Again, logical fallacy.

Remember, the sword will bend will make the head bow, but will not bend the heart. ;)





This is clearly only your view. :)



Again, logical fallacy.



The more I read the more I am concluding that you are NOT well versed with the Quran.



I have answered this above.



You are repeating yourself.



Where does it say we can't? Again, I think that you have not read the Quran with an open spirit.



Is morality good? If so, why?

I have tried to reply to most of the remarks abobe in bold. On some I ll write separately. On some I agree thats why I have left it. Some remarks are repeated like the one that I base my argument on the practice of Muslims not on Islam. Yes this is the main problem. What I write is what the Muslims practice wrongly not what Islam is. Islam is a great religion but we understand it wrong and practise it wrong and thats why I point out these wrong practices.

I am really thankful to Momin for his scholarly comments on my article. He is indeed a very inteliigent, knowledgable and positive minded member of this community.

PFgulalai
07-25-2010, 02:33 PM
Dearest brother/sister,being universal means extending to the entire world or all within the world, affecting all races, groups, situations, purposes, conditions etc. If a religion claims to be universal,then by virtue of that you should accept that all religions/people are EQUAL though not the SAME (how is any religion universal when its followers say that they are the BEST ones? That is messed up). Or to put it into a more simple example: "I am beautiful and I like myself, but I ALSO appreciate the beauty of other people (considering the fact that I have a universal approach) regardless of whatever gender, religion, ethnicity, culture,social class etc people might have."Conversely if you think that you are the most beautiful person and the rest are hideous ogres, you are no more universal but a complete biased person, full of vainglory.

And here I refute your claim in the most truculent manner: No religion can claim to be universal because of its innate "superiority" aspect associated with it (as has been mentioned bajillion times by YOU, Afghanlady, Shlombay and others..), be it Islam, Judaism, Christianity. The only CONCEPT that has a universal appeal is HUMANITY--that transcends all synthetic barriers and appreciate a person as HUMAN rather than Jew, Hindu, Muslim, deist, athiest, vegetarian, ignorant, or educated etc

Making claims is one thing; the practical presence and realization of those claims is another and the real absence of those claims just make them flimsy and hollow.:love:



Further, Islam is the only religion that claims universality. Show me any other religion that claims universality?

Badlun
07-25-2010, 10:12 PM
If you cant read all of the above i will summarise in a few sentences.

If one claims something is superior to the other, you have to prove it. Christians should prove their religion is word of God, Jews also and hindus and muslims. With all these religions debating and challenging one another, at the end of it if everyone is honest one religion can only claim to be superior. Not all will be superior that is impossible.

Claiming one thing is different than proving one thing!!! So dont tell me about what people claim, that oh my religion is superior bla bla bla.

I read both of your above posts and I agree whatever you said except the fact that Islam being only a religion gives you details of beliefs, modes of worship like prayets, fasting, zakat, hajj, and details of morality like not telling lies, respecting neighbours, parents etc but there are no details of politics, economics, culture, society, science, technology , philosophy etc and for these we have to resort to other sources as democracy, capitalism, socialism, natural and social sciences etc not to Quran or hadith. indeed Quran gives us general guidelines which you call rules but these are only moral injunctions not rules or codified laws like penal codes, criminal codes, traffic rules, science laws and formulas, philosophical theories.

Islamic scholars should guide us in the matters of beliefs, worship and ethics but not in politics, economics, culture, society, science, technology and philosophy for example. they should not become taliban to rule over us and to become police, judges, administrators etc at the same time.

I dont discuss which religion is superior and which is inferior. For me being a Muslim Islam is superior and for another would be his or her religion. This obvious thing was also told by Qrratugai but no body tried to understand her. Some times obvious things become difficult to explain or understand.

We should impose religious rules or injunctions on Muslim society as they should believe in one God, they should believe in the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad, they should offer prayers, keep fasts, pay zakat, go for hajj and enjoin on the moral values but you cant impose the politics or economics or culture etc for which you need to seek approval from parliament in a democratic polity, you have to implement economic policies recommended by the modern day economists and you have to preserve the culture of each society and cant impose the culture of Arabs on all Muslims

For modern education you have to make universities and not madrassas and for traffic and other rules you may learn from the west and thus you become a developed people not beggers, terrorists, extremists. wahabis, taliban, drugg dealers, poverty stricken down troddden mobs paying thousands of dollars just to enter into the west. If you like the west for yourself also like their system for your whole people.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:18 AM
Khan Gul, you say Islam is superior because it coincides with the essence of life. Now can I ask you what exactly is the "essence of life" you are talking about and how does Islam coincide it? Please give me a universal definition.

Your argument sounds to me like below.

"Because I live in this house, so it is the most beautifull of all."

This is a childish argument because if all religions claim they are superior to each other, then who is going to decide validity of the claims? Obviously, things will ultimately boil down to either the superiority of one religion over the other is decided ratiobally or all religious people destroy each other in mutual hostility eminating from their hollow sense of superiority.

That is secularism has been chosen which says "keep it in personal domain".

What would be the yard-stick you are looking for, dear brother, to prove one being superior over the other?

Again, in the eyes of someone who is a non-believer in religion, all religions are equal. But the fact of the matter is, and this is what you have mentioned, that every religion claims superiority. Hence, they can't be equal.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:20 AM
As for as I know Qrratugai is one of the most intelligent, knowledgable , positive minded and honest member of this site. Look at her greatness that insoÁpite of being a Muslim she give due respect to all other religions of the world. This superb tolerance and intellectual honesty should be appreciated. In spite of all counter arguments, discouraging remarks, fatwas, and opinions of indoctorinated people, she is still there like a rock defending what she really believes in.

At the same time she is reconciliatory and give due attention to any reasonable point rasied by any other member. Compare the way she takes the argument and the manner some members with their bulleying attitude , obscurantist ideas, approach of bigots and rigid behaviour. Qrratugai is no doubt a shining star of this site and all of us must be proud of this brilliant genius , a role model for Pashtun women and men at the same time. I dont feel hesitation to express this openly that so far I have not seen a great Pashtun wpman like her at least in the virtual world of Internet.


You are entitled to your opinion, and I agree with most of what you have said about her; however, she does not answer questions which will make the issue clear. She avoids them. Why?

This is intellectual dishonesty.

din
07-26-2010, 12:25 AM
qrrtgai jawab wley na war kaya? berezha mah.


din

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:25 AM
About the topic , as I explained earlier , the issue is not that Islam is superior or inferior to other religion for all the human beings.For all the believers in their respective religions , their own religion is superior to the other an dthats why they believe in that particular religion other wise all the believer human beings would be all Muslims or Chritians or adherents to other world religions.

The question is Islam is a religion like any other religion BEING A RELIGION and is not a complete system which give us guidance in other spheres of life beyond beliefs, worship and morality. Islam has no political, economic, cultural, scientific, social, philosophical etc guidance like a complete system and for this matter we have to seek guidance from other systems like democracy etc. If we separate religious from non religious then taliban like people wont be our rulers but their role will be limited only to religious part of our lives. They wont be our rulers, economists and wont impose their culture , social values and education system on us.

Yes for me being a Muslim islam is the best of all religions thats why I am a Muslim otherwise I should not call my self as a Muslim but at the same time I give the right to a Christian for example to consider his or her religion as the best for him or her. I cant impose on non Muslims that they must call islam the best Religion for them too. As Qrratugai well said all this is normative, personal, subjective , private and not a scientific fact.

Osho, dearest brother, the fact that you have chosen Islam over any other religion and as you mentioned that it is the "best" religion proves that all religions are not equal.

As far as other religions are concerned, we maintain that the fact that they claim superiority is a fact that no religion is equal. Otherwise, why invite people towards a particular religion?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:29 AM
I have tried to reply to most of the remarks abobe in bold. On some I ll write separately. On some I agree thats why I have left it. Some remarks are repeated like the one that I base my argument on the practice of Muslims not on Islam. Yes this is the main problem. What I write is what the Muslims practice wrongly not what Islam is. Islam is a great religion but we understand it wrong and practise it wrong and thats why I point out these wrong practices.

I am really thankful to Momin for his scholarly comments on my article. He is indeed a very inteliigent, knowledgable and positive minded member of this community.


Dearest osho, are per your answers, you do agree that Islam has the answer to every aspect of human being's lives. Your concern is, and I am paraphrasing, that it does not go into detail.

Let us do this, choose any topic and let us discuss it. You will see how Islam has the answer to everything.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:42 AM
Dearest brother/sister,being universal means extending to the entire world or all within the world, affecting all races, groups, situations, purposes, conditions etc. If a religion claims to be universal,then by virtue of that you should accept that all religions/people are EQUAL though not the SAME (how is any religion universal when its followers say that they are the BEST ones? That is messed up). Or to put it into a more simple example: "I am beautiful and I like myself, but I ALSO appreciate the beauty of other people (considering the fact that I have a universal approach) regardless of whatever gender, religion, ethnicity, culture,social class etc people might have."Conversely if you think that you are the most beautiful person and the rest are hideous ogres, you are no more universal but a complete biased person, full of vainglory.

First off, Islam is not a new religion. It is the completion of religions.
Secondly, have you read the Quran? What other religious books have you read?

And here I refute your claim in the most truculent manner: No religion can claim to be universal because of its innate "superiority" aspect associated with it (as has been mentioned bajillion times by YOU, Afghanlady, Shlombay and others..), be it Islam, Judaism, Christianity. The only CONCEPT that has a universal appeal is HUMANITY--that transcends all synthetic barriers and appreciate a person as HUMAN rather than Jew, Hindu, Muslim, deist, athiest, vegetarian, ignorant, or educated etc

Then why do you think religion exists?

Making claims is one thing; the practical presence and realization of those claims is another and the real absence of those claims just make them flimsy and hollow.:love:

Dearest sister, I am pretty sure that your opinions are not accepted by everyone, as intelligent as you are. What do you do when they are not accepted? I, personally, don't shove them down peoples' throat and I don't mock them. I let them be. However, when someone claims something that goes against their own beliefs, I will let them know. If they continue to deny it, then I will continue by hook or by crook, until they stop denying or keep quiet.

As far as my sister Qrratugai is concerned, she believes that Islam is correct. That revealed, how on earth can she claim that Islam is equal to any other religion when she has chosen Islam as her faith? How can she claim that Islam is equal to any other faith when Islam denies the existence of any other god but Allah?

As far as you are concerned, Islam might not be a universal truth, this is something which you have the right to believe in. However, just because you don't see it does not mean that it is not. Before 9/11 many people did not know what Islam was, did that make Islam non-existent?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:50 AM
I read both of your above posts and I agree whatever you said except the fact that Islam being only a religion gives you details of beliefs, modes of worship like prayets, fasting, zakat, hajj, and details of morality like not telling lies, respecting neighbours, parents etc but there are no details of politics, economics, culture, society, science, technology , philosophy etc and for these we have to resort to other sources as democracy, capitalism, socialism, natural and social sciences etc not to Quran or hadith. indeed Quran gives us general guidelines which you call rules but these are only moral injunctions not rules or codified laws like penal codes, criminal codes, traffic rules, science laws and formulas, philosophical theories.

Islamic scholars should guide us in the matters of beliefs, worship and ethics but not in politics, economics, culture, society, science, technology and philosophy for example. they should not become taliban to rule over us and to become police, judges, administrators etc at the same time.

I dont discuss which religion is superior and which is inferior. For me being a Muslim Islam is superior and for another would be his or her religion. This obvious thing was also told by Qrratugai but no body tried to understand her. Some times obvious things become difficult to explain or understand.

We should impose religious rules or injunctions on Muslim society as they should believe in one God, they should believe in the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad, they should offer prayers, keep fasts, pay zakat, go for hajj and enjoin on the moral values but you cant impose the politics or economics or culture etc for which you need to seek approval from parliament in a democratic polity, you have to implement economic policies recommended by the modern day economists and you have to preserve the culture of each society and cant impose the culture of Arabs on all Muslims

For modern education you have to make universities and not madrassas and for traffic and other rules you may learn from the west and thus you become a developed people not beggers, terrorists, extremists. wahabis, taliban, drugg dealers, poverty stricken down troddden mobs paying thousands of dollars just to enter into the west. If you like the west for yourself also like their system for your whole people.

We respect all religions. We have all accepted that ALL religions claim superiority. If they are equal, they are equal only in the sight of those who right out deny religion as a truth.

If they are equal in the sight of religious people then it means that they can be a Muslim today and a Jew tomorrow and a Hindu after tomorrow, because despite being different would all bring them to the same level of spirituality.

This cannot be.

The main base of religion is the existence of God. Each religion has a different understanding of God. Therefore, how could all religions be equal when their understanding of God and His worship are different?

Hence, a person cannot pick and choose a different religion everyday, for it would pull him in different directions and confuse the hell out of him.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 12:56 AM
Meemwawmeemnoon,
nearly everybody who has posted here has showed how absurd and deviated Qrratugais view are. Osho just prove that they cant be equal since he chose Islam.

Momin, There is a reason why she is hiding. Not only is it scholarly dishonest but it also means she lacks the ability in defending her stances. I was on vacation in Australia now that I am back she needs to realize she cant just say something without expecting us to challenge her views. If she cant reply back to the refutation that tells us a lot.

Momin think positive maybe she is typing up a reply :D , If she doesnt in a few days it will prove to us that she couldnt back her self up with her ridiculous, "All Religious are equal" line.

Dearest and most beloved sister,

I will not have a problem with Qrratugai or Osho, just as I don't have a problem with my dear sisters, Gulalai, Muhsina, Musafira, my brothers Zalmai and others, if they don't call themselves as adherent of a specific religion.

The second someone says that he is Hindu and says that all religions are equal, I tell him that he is out of his mind. If someone claims to be a Christian and then claims that all religions are equal, I tell him that he is out of his mind. I will do the same to a Muslim who does the same.

If Qrratugai says she is not a Muslim then I will give her stance more value and respect. But as a Muslim she forfeits the right to hold such an opinion.

Badlun
07-26-2010, 02:31 AM
Dearest osho, are per your answers, you do agree that Islam has the answer to every aspect of human being's lives. Your concern is, and I am paraphrasing, that it does not go into detail.

Let us do this, choose any topic and let us discuss it. You will see how Islam has the answer to everything.

I believe that Islam gives full details of beliefs, modes of worship and ethics. No need to discuss it here. I dont believe that Islam has the answer to every aspect of human being's life. It only gives few guidelines for other aspects as politics, culture, economics, society, philosophy,etc but these guidelines have moral basis not particular details. For these aspects we need guidance from other sources. For politics and economy we need to follow the developed countries and their systems specially of the G7 countries or G20 countries. For culture and society we have Pashtunwali for Pashtuns and other people or Muslims have their own culture and society and Arab culture in the name of Islam may not be imposed on them. For science we need consulting pure science books and so on .

Now from this if you are not satisfied then lets start discussing each aspect separately. Lets take start from Political system and politics.

As given in wikipedia we can define political system a complete set of institutions (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Institution), interest groups (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Interest_group) (such as political parties (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Political_party), trade unions (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Trade_union), lobby groups (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Lobby_group)), the relationships between those institutions and the political norms and rules that govern their functions (constitution (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Constitution), election (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Election) law (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Law)). Politics is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Group_decision_making). The term is generally applied to behavior within civil governments (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Government).

Now please enlighten us that how Islam(only Quran) give us a political system and it tell us in detail how Muslims should practise politics. Why we should not take simple democracy as our model? why we should not follow the developed world in politics and political system?

I said above that only Quran because I want to avoid the discussions on the authenticity of hadiths. I also dont expect traditional answers that Quran tells us about the sovereingty of Allah, principles of Justice, consultation etc as all these fall in ethics not in politics or a complete political system.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 02:35 AM
We will stick to the Quran. Insha Allah!

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 02:37 AM
Now from this if you are not satisfied then lets start discussing each aspect separately. Lets take start from Political system and politics.

As given in wikipedia we can define political system a complete set of institutions (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Institution), interest groups (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Interest_group) (such as political parties (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Political_party), trade unions (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Trade_union), lobby groups (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Lobby_group)), the relationships between those institutions and the political norms and rules that govern their functions (constitution (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Constitution), election (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Election) law (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Law)). Politics is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Group_decision_making). The term is generally applied to behavior within civil governments (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/Government).

Now please enlighten us that how Islam(only Quran) give us a political system and it tell us in detail how Muslims should practise politics. Why we should not take simple democracy as our model? why we should not follow the developed world in politics and political system?

I said above that only Quran because I want to avoid the discussions on the authenticity of hadiths. I also dont expect traditional answers that Quran tells us about the sovereingty of Allah, principles of Justice, consultation etc as all these fall in ethics not in politics or a complete political system.

Let us begin!

Define "simple democracy," in your own words.

Badlun
07-26-2010, 03:00 AM
It will become difficult if we chat in place of discussion in the shape of long posts or artciles. We cant go in a conversation style because I am not here all the time as I am busy in travelling, job and studies. You please reply to my request on the politics and political system as given by Quran. You may take your time and I ll take time to comment on your reply or asking you another question.

If I am not satisfied from your answer then I ll give my alternative and will explain why we should have democracy and not what you tell us the political system of Islam.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 03:05 AM
We will post whenever we have time. Let us just do it this way, it would be simpler. Believe me. Let it take as much time as is necessary.

Please answer the above question and we will take it up this thread whenever we have time. No rush. :)

So, could you kindly describe "simple democracy" in your own words? :)

Badlun
07-26-2010, 03:15 AM
Democracy is to govern a state according to the wishes of the majority of the residents or voters of that state. For me the democracy working in the G7 or G20 countries in whatever shape is a model which we Muslims and Pashtuns should follow in our political system and politics with the only difference that democracy should not be extended to the religion as our faith, worship and part of religious morality should not be decided by the majority decision of our voters or legislators. For example a bill may not be passed in a Muslim parliament that there are two Gods instead of one. religion should not be touched but other decisions may be taken by the democratic ways. As well as culture of Pashtuns if does not clash with human rights may not be goverened by majority rule.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 09:56 PM
Democracy is to govern a state according to the wishes of the majority of the residents or voters of that state. For me the democracy working in the G7 or G20 countries in whatever shape is a model which we Muslims and Pashtuns should follow in our political system and politics with the only difference that democracy should not be extended to the religion as our faith, worship and part of religious morality should not be decided by the majority decision of our voters or legislators. For example a bill may not be passed in a Muslim parliament that there are two Gods instead of one. religion should not be touched but other decisions may be taken by the democratic ways. As well as culture of Pashtuns if does not clash with human rights may not be goverened by majority rule.


Beloved brother, do you really think that there is democracy in the Western world? Does the populace have a say at every junction of political decisions?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 10:22 PM
Is it democracy or is it a system which works?

PFgulalai
07-26-2010, 11:17 PM
First off, Islam is not a new religion. It is the completion of religions.

Religions have been evolving since prehistoric times and they are still evolving.

Secondly, have you read the Quran? What other religious books have you read?

Hmm. I guess I should not answer you again so that you keep on asking me and others this question (atleast you will have some question to ask!!)

Then why do you think religion exists?

Obviously, to control the minds of humans by instilling fear from supernatural beings and to justify and maintain the authority, domination, and command of a group, race, King, Ruler, Shamans, priests etc.

Dearest sister, I am pretty sure that your opinions are not accepted by everyone, as intelligent as you are. What do you do when they are not accepted?

I chillax :lal6:!!!!


I, personally, don't shove them down peoples' throat and I don't mock them. I let them be. However, when someone claims something that goes against their own beliefs, I will let them know. If they continue to deny it, then I will continue by hook or by crook, until they stop denying or keep quiet.

I found it ridiculously self-contradictiory. LOL


As far as you are concerned, Islam might not be a universal truth, this is something which you have the right to believe in. However, just because you don't see it does not mean that it is not. Before 9/11 many people did not know what Islam was, did that make Islam non-existent?

You are right. After 9/11, they want to forget that they were so ignorant before.
http://www.divaglitter.com/graphic//cat/glitter-graphics/never-forget-9-11.gif