View Full Version : Islam is just a religion like any other religion


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MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 10:22 PM
Dear sister, if religion to you is a mockery and is only for ignorant people then who am I to argue with you. Obviously, you must know everything: you are only a biologist.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-26-2010, 10:34 PM
Beloved brother, do you really think that there is democracy in the Western world? Does the populace have a say at every junction of political decisions?

Dearest brother and most honored Khaleel-ul-Rahman, when the population gets to have a say at every junction, it's called 'direct democracy'. It's a very ineffective method of ruling because poor decisions can be made by a manipulated mob (like they banned minarets in Switzerland). Modern democracy works on the basis of the social contract theory. The people give power and authority temporarily to a group of individuals who, within a certain framework (the constitution), rule them, maintain order, take care of their needs and protect them. That is democracy. Democracy doesn't mean that in a state of 320 million people, every person has a say in every decision. That's mob-rule.


Kind regards.


Furthermore, you asked the purpose of religions. Momin-e-azaam. Religions came about when people couldn't answer simple questions - where does fire come from (must be a power of the gods stolen by Prometheus), what are stars (must be gods lulz), what are those voices coming from the woods (must be fairies - virgin fairies - Caucasian virgin fairies - hurs), etc. Religion explained all the phenomena that couldn't be explained by the science back then. As scientific knowledge grew, we realized that all the stuff the religious taught as science was based on ancient fairy tales and that's why we have Muslims like you who have stopped interpretation the Quran literally.


More kind regards.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 10:38 PM
Dearest and beloved brother,

Dearest brother and most honored Khaleel-ul-Rahman, when the population gets to have a say at every junction, it's called 'direct democracy'. It's a very ineffective method of ruling because poor decisions can be made by a manipulated mob (like they banned minarets in Switzerland). Modern democracy works on the basis of the social contract theory. The people give power and authority temporarily to a group of individuals who, within a certain framework (the constitution), rule them, maintain order, take care of their needs and protect them. That is democracy. Democracy doesn't mean that in a state of 320 million people, every person has a say in every decision. That's mob-rule.


This is not rejected by Quran. The system of Shurah encourages exactly this.




Furthermore, you asked the purpose of religions. Momin-e-azaam. Religions came about when people couldn't answer simple questions - where does fire come from (must be a power of the gods stolen by Prometheus), what are stars (must be gods lulz), what are those voices coming from the woods (must be fairies - virgin fairies - Caucasian virgin fairies - hurs), etc. Religion explained all the phenomena that couldn't be explained by the science back then. As scientific knowledge grew, we realized that all the stuff the religious taught as science was based on ancient fairy tales and that's why we have Muslims like you who have stopped interpretation the Quran literally.


Are you saying that we know everything now?

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-26-2010, 10:44 PM
Dearest and beloved brother, This is not rejected by Quran. The system of Shurah encourages exactly this.

Not according to the Muslim political thinkers. They call for a Caliph. The parliament shura idea didn't come about until Jamaludeen Afghani (19th century).



Are you saying that we know everything now?

We're pretty close to knowing everything but not everything about everything. The more we find out, the more mysteries begin to unravel. Religions don't know anything except what they learn from scientists and not a single religion has provided anything scientific to man that only a deity could have known. I have to go now but I'll respond to you when I come back 7-8 hours from now. Please pray for my safe journey.

Also, everyday, I've been witnessing dead animals (usually cats) in the middle of the roads and sometimes, there's no choice but to drive over them because only women change lanes without referring to the side mirrors first. Please pray that I see happier things on the way.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 10:47 PM
May Allah protect you and may you arrive safe and sound. Take care.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-26-2010, 10:52 PM
Not according to the Muslim political thinkers. They call for a Caliph. The parliament shura idea didn't come about until Jamaludeen Afghani (19th century).

If they only understood that the election of a Caliph is directly done with the help of Allah. That is why it failed after the Righteous Guided Caliphate.

Where do you think he got the idea of a Shurah parliament system? It is clearly noted in the Quran.





We're pretty close to knowing everything but not everything about everything. The more we find out, the more mysteries begin to unravel. Religions don't know anything except what they learn from scientists and not a single religion has provided anything scientific to man that only a deity could have known.

Islam does not need to get involved at every junction of the process. It gives the final answer.

How old do you think our universe is? And how many times do you think it has been calculated and then corrected and re-calculated by scientists?

Badlun
07-26-2010, 11:53 PM
Momin

To tell you the truth I am dsapponted here. I requested you that here there wont be any conversatonal type of dscussons but long posts or articles. But you continued with your short questions and chit chat style.

What I requested was your presentation on the politics and Political system of Islam. There you can criticize democracy and present your own Islamic alternatve for democracy. I also requested that such general words as Shura etc is not alternative to a political system. Its just a simple moral injunction of Quran not a political system.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-27-2010, 01:11 AM
Momin

To tell you the truth I am dsapponted here. I requested you that here there wont be any conversatonal type of dscussons but long posts or articles. But you continued with your short questions and chit chat style.

What I requested was your presentation on the politics and Political system of Islam. There you can criticize democracy and present your own Islamic alternatve for democracy. I also requested that such general words as Shura etc is not alternative to a political system. Its just a simple moral injunction of Quran not a political system.

Dear brother, I know how you feel. But I don't believe in a set "Islamic" political system. It does not exist. That is why I told you that we should take this route, instead. You will see that what you have working today for some governments is nothing new. And what is not working has been warn against by the Quran. They have both been mentioned in the Quran.

The reason being is that Islam has not come to meddle in the political aspect of the lives of human beings, per se, it has sent concrete guidance on how a practical society functions. Period.

The approach that I suggested will work much better. The reason being is that a society came before religion, not the vice versa.

My Ph.D. thesis will be, Insha Allah, to correct political thought via the Quran.

Badlun
07-27-2010, 01:43 AM
The words like
But I don't believe in a set "Islamic" political system. It does not exist.

means no political sytem exists in Islam.

The words
You will see that what you have working today for some governments is nothing new. And what is not working has been warn against by the Quran. They have both been mentioned in the Quran.

I want to know where these have been mentioned in Quran???

Words
The reason being is that Islam has not come to meddle in the political aspect of the lives of human beings, per se, it has sent concrete guidance on how a practical society functions. Period.

are self contradictory as if Islam does not meddle in the political aspects(What I believe) thenwhere from concrete guidance come for the functioning of practical society as politics is part of this practical society.

In the Words
The approach that I suggested will work much better. The reason being is that a society came before religion, not the vice versa.

about which approach you are talking and if society comes before the religion then society is more important than the religion and thus politics being part of a society is beyond Islam being a religion.

Should I wait for your My Ph.D. thesis and mean while I confirm that in the light of your above quoted words there is no political system in Islam and I continue with my next question that what Economic system Islam presents and what are the Quranic details of economy.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-27-2010, 01:55 AM
The words like
But I don't believe in a set "Islamic" political system. It does not exist.

means no political sytem exists in Islam.

Correct. That is why it is said to follow those in authority and give government to those who deserve it.

The words
You will see that what you have working today for some governments is nothing new. And what is not working has been warn against by the Quran. They have both been mentioned in the Quran.

I want to know where these have been mentioned in Quran???

Through discussion they will come out slowly. :)

Words
The reason being is that Islam has not come to meddle in the political aspect of the lives of human beings, per se, it has sent concrete guidance on how a practical society functions. Period.

are self contradictory as if Islam does not meddle in the political aspects(What I believe) thenwhere from concrete guidance come for the functioning of practical society as politics is part of this practical society.

Don't forget, that the Jews of Medina invited the Prophet (saw) to mediate. It was then that a proper system was established known as the Islamic State, which was different than the ummah. The society of Yathrib needed help and Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) knew how to help them. This is how Allah establishes a system. Not by force but by need.

In the Words
The approach that I suggested will work much better. The reason being is that a society came before religion, not the vice versa.

about which approach you are talking and if society comes before the religion then society is more important than the religion and thus politics being part of a society is beyond Islam being a religion.

That is why you have: There is no compulsion in religion. :)

Should I wait for your My Ph.D. thesis and mean while I confirm that in the light of your above quoted words there is no political system in Islam and I continue with my next question that what Economic system Islam presents and what are the Quranic details of economy.

Absolutely not, don't forget that politics is what holds everything together. :)

So, let us continue. I say we should discuss topics as they come, because then our discussion will take a deeper analysis of the important topics. Like, for example, separation of church and state.

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-27-2010, 07:00 AM
If they only understood that the election of a Caliph is directly done with the help of Allah. That is why it failed after the Righteous Guided Caliphate.

Where do you think he got the idea of a Shurah parliament system? It is clearly noted in the Quran.

I'm curious to know how one will elect a caliph today with the help of Allah.

The Shura based on the modern European parliamentary system comes from a very liberal interpretation of scripture. Most Muslims will tell you that the Shura is comprised primarily of scholars. Others will tell you that the Shura is an advisory body only with no real legislative power (speaking of which, legislature would be pretty much a rubber-stamp body in a system that had the rules of all of mankind until the end of eternity revealed in a 7th century text).

You also mentioned in another post that a proper Islamic political system does not exist. Dearest brother and heart-beat of my heart, what about the political and administrative setup of the Khulifaerashideen and the political works of Al-Farabi, Al-Mawardi, Nizamulmulk Tusi, the deviant Ghazali, ibn Khuldun and Sayyid Qutb (modern Salafis love this guy's book though for normal people, it comes under the horror genre)?

Islam does not need to get involved at every junction of the process. It gives the final answer.

How old do you think our universe is? And how many times do you think it has been calculated and then corrected and re-calculated by scientists?


That's the difference between science and religion.

Religion: This is how it is, don't question it, accept it or die.
Science: If you have evidence, your theory will be accepted by everyone regardless of your caste, religion, creed, sexual orientation, body mass index, etc.

That is why we see that age old incorrect beliefs exist within religious communities. Only people like you who interpret scripture liberally (and not literally) can enter the modern world. You are a minority, unfortunately.

Badlun
07-27-2010, 01:03 PM
I ll request once again Momin that we shall wait till the time when you will be able to write an article on the Politics and Political sytem of Islam. Otherwise these discussions will carry us no where. I firmly believe that islam being only a religion has nothing to do with politics and does not have any political system otherwise we would have seen it in the last 1400 years somewhere in a complete shape.

The Madina state established by the prophet and the system evolved by the Muslim caliphs was not a religious one but based on local arab traditions, values and practices with a religious touch because after all they were practicing Muslims too in the religious sense.

We should keep Islam limited to its religious role of guiding us in beliefs, worship and morality and may follow modern political system and practices like democracy. Actually in practice all non Arab Muslim states have democracy in one or another form and the Arabs have monorchies and dictatorships but no where any Islamic political system. We should improve the democratic systems in Non Arab Muslim states and introduce democracy in Arab Muslim states.

Now I request Momin or any member to give us the Economic system if Islam has any one.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-27-2010, 08:24 PM
^I will leave that discussion for now, as it is not a matter of a few posts. :)

However, Osho Jana,

I have a question to ask you (this stemmed from another thread in which you referred to the Quran to conclude upon an issue): why don't you consider Islam superior to any other religion when the Quran clearly states this?

Badlun
07-28-2010, 03:12 AM
^I will leave that discussion for now, as it is not a matter of a few posts. :)

However, Osho Jana,

I have a question to ask you (this stemmed from another thread in which you referred to the Quran to conclude upon an issue): why don't you consider Islam superior to any other religion when the Quran clearly states this?

I had never said that all the religions are equal. How Islam believing in monotheism and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad, and Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism, and Shintoism and Confuciasm, and Jainism etc can be equal???? All are different with different beliefs, modes of worship.

Some one might have misunderstood me . What I all the time say is that Islam is a religion like other religions but is not a complete system. Is equal to other religions in its being a religion but is not a political system etc.

And yes being a religion it is complete as it is said in Quran. There is no need of any further reformation or Messiah to complete its beliefs, morality and worship.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 11:03 AM
I had never said that all the religions are equal.

Thank you for clarifying. This is what I am some other members have been trying to say all along.

How Islam believing in monotheism and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad, and Hinduism, and Christianity and Judaism, and Shintoism and Confuciasm, and Jainism etc can be equal????

This was the crux of our argument and it seemed that you overlooked this basic fact to declare all religions equal. Thank you for clarifying your stance by stating this crucial point.

All are different with different beliefs, modes of worship.

Precisely.

Some one might have misunderstood me . What I all the time say is that Islam is a religion like other religions but is not a complete system. Is equal to other religions in its being a religion but is not a political system etc.

Now it is more clear what you meant by "equal." But this we shall talk about, Insha Allah.

And yes being a religion it is complete as it is said in Quran. There is no need of any further reformation or Messiah to complete its beliefs, morality and worship.

This is a fundamental aspect of the Quran which no other book has declared.


Dera manana osho jana for clarifying your stance. Just like you we all belief that Islam has no equal. It is a complete religion that represents that most complete understanding of God. To say that Islam and other religions are equal in merit is like saying that the understanding of God in all religions is the same, which it is not. Hence, it would be a tragic mistake to say that they are all equal.

Thank you, osho.

Badlun
07-28-2010, 01:57 PM
Now if no one can prove that Islam has its own political, economic , cultural, social, philosophical ,scientific and other systems then we conclude this discussion here and may take islam as a religion only and may seek guidance to all these non religious aspects from other sources no doubt with the basic moral injunctions of Islam.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 02:25 PM
As I said earlier dear brother: there is no such thing that you are looking for. It would have made the Quran into a book of infinite volumes. However, Quran has made it clear what is beneficial for man what is not, which what man needs in order to become properly acquainted with his Creator. No other religious scripture has this.

That said, human beings have all sorts of thoughts that go through their mind on a daily basis, what is to say which is right and which is wrong? Is rape okay? Is hating your family okay? Is cheating the government okay? I given to charity okay? Where did we come from? Why do men have a high sexual appetite, in general. Should a woman cover her "gems?" How should a government control the population? So on and so forth? If Allah was to leave man to venture out for himself based on trial and error then he would be at lost with respect to the spiritual world and the material world. The real means to achieving his purpose would never come to materialize.

Hence, when the moral aspect of man is taken care of, he is then able to establish a proper "political, economical, cultural, social, philosophical, scientific, and other systems."

Dearest and lovely brother,



What works in politics tell me? Whatever you say cannot go against the Quran, as a Muslim. Therefore, we base our yard-stick as per the standards of the Quran so as to not contradict it. Correct? Now in order to establish a proper government we have to first establish the basic form of a government, correct? Now what is the basic form of a government? Is not the family, the basic form of government?
Economically, how can we go against the Quran? Why do you think the economical collapse almost destroyed the world a few year ago? Was it or was it not due to interest? What does Quran say about this?
Culturally Islam has also set the standard. For example, it has taught men and women how to dress. It has given guidelines on how to conduct yourself with other members of society. How to eat. How to sleep. How to have conjugal relationship with your wife. How to take care the needy of society, so on and so forth.
Socially, Islam has set the highest standard: to respect all religions. To not mock another's god. To respect the authority. To not create social disorder by means of riots, demonstrations, and to always submit to those who are in charge; otherwise, if one cannot, then one has to migrate from the land.
Philosophically, Islam is the reason why you have a high standard for philosophy today. It destroyed all forms of logical fallacies, which is the root cause of philosophical pondering. Islam has set the standard: if you think you are right, then bring forth your argument. No other religion has this set out explicitly. It has done this by challenging people to challenge the Quran. NO OTHER RELIGION HAS DONE THIS.
Scientifically, Islam has given all the tools necessary by setting out the beginning of time, how old the universe is, biological start of life, the process by which life decays and vanishes, etc. Islam is not in the business to give out all the answers. That is why Allah has taught man a great prayer: to ask Allah to increase him in knowledge. What does this mean? There is more than what meets the eye. As per the Quran itself, its verses are in parables, metaphors and allegories. Therefore, in order to conclude what those mean one has to do scientific experiments. And is this not consistent with modern science? Scientists first have to make a hypothesis before one can venture out. Otherwise, how will they know what they are looking for? Also, a lot of what we know today has come by natural helping us out. How? We are not all born healthy, for example. Since we are not, those that don't meet the "normal" standard are helped out to meet that standard. And in order to do so, we have to conduct experiments to see what is normal in order to help that person.

In the above I have given a short description of why your idea is wrong. Islam only gives the answer, it does not provide the process. That is left in our hands. Otherwise, life would be really boring on earth, there would be no societal progress and in turn man would never need to seek the help of Allah in order to befriend Him. Necessity is the mother of invention!

Badlun
07-28-2010, 04:41 PM
Thanx a lot for this very useful post. We are saying the same thing but in different words. Islam has given full details of Beliefs, modes of worship and morality and has left the other fields to human beings so that they can use their own reason and their own faculties to explore, evolve , construct and establish the political, cultural, economic, scientific and other aspects of life.

This is the beauty of Islam that it has given few very basic moral principles like consultation justice, and honesty for politics, no usury in economy, decency in culture, curiosity and observation in science, the use of reason in Philosophy and has given a well defined spiritual system too based on its beliefs , modes of worship and ethics.

For the religious part as beleifs, worship and morality we need guidance from religious scholars like Mullas and taliban etc but for non religious spheres we may follow the developed world. In culture we have our own culture Pashtunwali and Arab cuklture is for Arabs not for all Muslims or Pashtuns.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 09:48 PM
If any Muslim here claims Religions are equal or Islam is Equal to any Religion, step up to the plate.


Word.

I don't want to hear semantics. I want physical proof that illustrates how all the religions are equal despite being different. To claim it is is one thing but to prove it is something totally different.

That is not much to ask for.

It would be wise to just answer the question for what it's worth and not bring personal hatred in this.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 09:51 PM
Thanx a lot for this very useful post. We are saying the same thing but in different words. Islam has given full details of Beliefs, modes of worship and morality and has left the other fields to human beings so that they can use their own reason and their own faculties to explore, evolve , construct and establish the political, cultural, economic, scientific and other aspects of life.

I agree

This is the beauty of Islam that it has given few very basic moral principles like consultation justice, and honesty for politics, no usury in economy, decency in culture, curiosity and observation in science, the use of reason in Philosophy and has given a well defined spiritual system too based on its beliefs , modes of worship and ethics.

I agree

For the religious part as beleifs, worship and morality we need guidance from religious scholars like Mullas and taliban etc but for non religious spheres we may follow the developed world. In culture we have our own culture Pashtunwali and Arab cuklture is for Arabs not for all Muslims or Pashtuns.

If Pashtunwali has aspects that contradict the Quran, we must leave those aspects of Pashtunwali.

Oil and water can't mix.

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 10:18 PM
Do you know what you are saying? Are you Pashtun?

If yes, after this I highly doubt it.

If no, you should know the value of Pashtunwali to a true Pashtun.

Pashtunwali is older than Islam.It's our thousands years old ancient code of life. It runs in our blood and it remains with us from cradle-to-grave.

There are thousands of things which would contradict Quran. You can exhaust those first rather than targeting our Pashtunwali.


If Pashtunwali has aspects that contradict the Quran, we must leave those aspects of Pashtunwali.

Oil and water can't mix.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 10:23 PM
Do you know what you are saying? Are you Pashtun?

If yes, after this I highly doubt it.

If no, you should know the value of Pashtunwali to a true Pashtun.

Pashtunwali is older than Islam.It's our thousands years old ancient code of life. It runs in our blood and it remains with us from cradle-to-grave.

There are thousands of things which would contradict Quran. You can exhaust those first rather than targeting our Pashtunwali.

Beloved sister,

I am a Pashtun and I will always be one. Just because I give Quran precedence over Pashtunwali does not make me any less a Pashtun.

Is Pashtunwali not against some of your own principles?
Further, tell me what contradicts the Quran?

One request, leave the hatred aside. An educated person is beyond hatred.

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 10:44 PM
Beloved sister,
I am a Pashtun and I will always be one. Just because I give Quran precedence over Pashtunwali does not make me any less a Pashtun..

Oh well, I am against the Arab-inization of Pashtunwali. We are Pashtuns, not Arabs.Therefore, I would like to die as Pashtun, not Arab.Period.

Is Pashtunwali not against some of your own principles?.

The epicenter of my principles is Pashtunwali and everything revolves around it and I practice it religiously and I have a beautiful life without any self-contradictions and a lot of peace of mind.

Further, tell me what contradicts the Quran?.

Bible contradicts Quran.Quran contradicts Talmud.Talmus contradicts Baghvad Geeta.Geeta contradicts Science.Science contradicts Quran.Quran contradicts Bible.Bible contradicts Quran......


One request, leave the hatred aside. An educated person is beyond hatred.

You will do much good to yourself if you advise that to yourself first.Everything would qualify as hatred to you if it contradicts Quran. I think beyond the limits that you can't even dare to think of!!
Peace!

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 10:57 PM
Jasmine, cultures and societies are evolving as the world is progressing. There is a big, but subtle difference between reformation and transformation. Reformation of Pashtunwali would make sense to me but transformation on the basis of so-called contradictions with Arabs is quite unacceptable to me. I would hope this never happens in my lifetime at the least.

Gulalai,
If there are certain parts of Pashtunwali that contradict Islam we can drop that and continue with the rest.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 11:03 PM
Gulalai, you are speaking with spite.

I am a Muslim and I will die a Muslim. Islam does not equal being an Arab. I would have thought that someone as educated as yourself would have been able to distinguish the difference.

Just because i defend the Quran does not mean that I hate people.

If you think that what you have stated contradicts the Quran, then technically speaking you are right. However, that does not make Quran wrong.

The difference between you and me is that you hate and mock Islam and Arabs, whereas I don't hate and mock anything.

If you just pondered upon what you have said, you have basically bashed everyone on this website. In fact, you have even bashed your friend Qrratugai.

If you think that your opinions are going to be accepted without scrutiny then you are a living contradiction for your field of study scrutinizes everything.

Just apply that in your daily life and live happily.

I personally don't have a problem with you, but you have to let go. Don't hate me because I am a Muslim and love to defend Islam.

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 11:22 PM
If a "silent reformation" has already occurred, why are you asking for further transformations?So far,following Pashtunwali is concerned, it varies from person to person. I have seen those who always stick to the core values of Pashtunwali wherever they go or live. Then there are those who have completely abandon it.Personally, I would like to see Pashtuns as modern people who are up to date with the modern norms of the world, so that we are just not recognized as "Pathan jaaney namaz jaanay".

It already has Gulalai khorey, Pashtuns are 99.9 percent devoted Muslims. Ever heard of your friends say, "Pathan jaaney namaz jaanay" Do you think Pashtunwali to its core is still followed?

No one asked for a transformation but a silent reformation occurred the year we became Muslims.

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 11:23 PM
Peace!

gulalai, you are speaking with spite.

I am a muslim and i will die a muslim. Islam does not equal being an arab. I would have thought that someone as educated as yourself would have been able to distinguish the difference.

Just because i defend the quran does not mean that i hate people.

If you think that what you have stated contradicts the quran, then technically speaking you are right. However, that does not make quran wrong.

The difference between you and me is that you hate and mock islam and arabs, whereas i don't hate and mock anything.

If you just pondered upon what you have said, you have basically bashed everyone on this website. In fact, you have even bashed your friend qrratugai.

If you think that your opinions are going to be accepted without scrutiny then you are a living contradiction for your field of study scrutinizes everything.

Just apply that in your daily life and live happily.

I personally don't have a problem with you, but you have to let go. Don't hate me because i am a muslim and love to defend islam.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 11:26 PM
Peace!

Insha Allah. May Allah be with you. :)

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 11:29 PM
It's fine,Jasime. The thread has been "transforming" since the time it started. Infact, people notions have been "transforming" if you would notice,lolz.

I like commenting on other's threads. I think refraining from starting one of my own is best in my interest at present. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Gulalai, This is going to side track the thread. I would love to discuss this with you. Start a thread khor you can do it girl :)

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 11:51 PM
Ofcourse, I do not agree for a variety of reasons.

I support the reformation of those customs and traditions which contradict the core human values in general. For instance, "Swara" is highly deplorable and it is something that I would like to address both in practice and theory. Can Islam reform it? We will talk only after "stoning to death" is nullified.

Peace.

I said, If certain aspects of it contradict Islam. We as Muslims should drop it.

That was all. Do you agree?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-28-2010, 11:55 PM
What is "swara?"

PFgulalai
07-28-2010, 11:58 PM
Oh no! Jasmine, I heard this really good lecture about "World peace and harmony" so "peace" is stuck in my mind. Please bear with me for the next 5 minutes.:tongue:
Gulalai is that it? Peace? end of discussion?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 12:00 AM
Pashtunwali is older than Islam.It's our thousands years old ancient code of life. It runs in our blood and it remains with us from cradle-to-grave.



The epicenter of my principles is Pashtunwali and everything revolves around it and I practice it religiously and I have a beautiful life without any self-contradictions and a lot of peace of mind.



I support the reformation of those customs and traditions which contradict the core human values in general. For instance, "Swara" is highly deplorable and it is something that I would like to address both in practice and theory.


Interesting.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 12:02 AM
I support the reformation of those customs and traditions which contradict the core human values in general. For instance, "Swara" is highly deplorable and it is something that I would like to address both in practice and theory. Can Islam reform it? We will talk only after "stoning to death" is nullified.


Stoning to death is NOT an Islamic principle. Islam abrogated this custom.

Can we talk now?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 01:28 AM
Osho Jana, discuss Pashtunwali here.

Yes, it is a culture, but Islam also inculcates its own culture upon its adherents once they accept Islam. Hence, you have to let go of one of them.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 01:35 AM
Dear sister, the purpose of religion is to kill the nonsensical aspects of culture that drives man away from God.

The reason why the mushrikeen of Mecca were against Islam was because it would not go hand in hand with their culture.

As Jasmine said it, the parts of our culture that does not go against Islam we can keep.

This, has to go:

Swara is a child marriage custom in tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. This custom is tied to blood feuds among the different tribes and clans where the young girls are forcibly married to the members of different clans in order to resolve the feuds. It is most common among Pashtuns.

In Islam, a girl has to agree to her marriage contract otherwise it is nullified as per the dictates of shariah. She cannot be forced into it, no matter what the reason is.

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 08:15 AM
Once you call yourself a muslim then you have submitted to the will of Allah! You cannot follow your culture above Islam. That is to mean any aspect in your culture which goes beyond the limits islam has set, then we reject that as muslims. Otherwise if it is within the limits set by Islam then we can follow that part of the culture.

Do we have to uphold Pashtunwali to the core? Will that make us better human beings if we do? Will that make us more successful? No i do not think so. Whereas if we follow Islam will it make us better human beings and successful? Yes!

So nobody will say abandon your culture completely, forget your religion and so on. We keep our culture but we remove the parts of it in conflict with our religion Islam.

Badlun
07-29-2010, 08:43 AM
This is the main issue we are discussing in this thread.Islam being only a religion like any other religion has nothing to do with the culture of a people, nation or ethnic group. Islam being a religion only deals with your beliefs, modes of worship and ethics. If an element of culture goes beyond your belief for example a culture establishes two gods instead of one then it is against Islam but other elements of culture as beard, dress, music, arts and crafts has nothing to do religion.

Pashtunwali is the culture and society of Pashtuns not the religion. We must strike a balance between our culture and society and our religion. Otherwise religious pandits and taliban will wipe out our culture, our dances, our music, our poetry, our arts and our social values. The clash we see in the shape of Taliban and Mullas when they kill Pashtun singers, artists and stop all Pashtun cultural events , festivals and musical programmes and instead introducing and implementing a fireign Arab culture.

The soultion is keeping the religion and the culture or society separate. Similarly separating politics, economics and science from the religion. This is the only way both religion and non religion can mutually survive.

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 09:13 AM
nonsense...

Because if we keep religion and culture separate then we gonna have jahil customs like swara prevailing
If culture was supposed to be kept separate from religion, then Muhammad (saw) would not have gone against his ancestors/tribes and stop them in doing many customary actions! But Islam came and changed the whole arab society! It allowed the arabs to keep their culture but removed many of their cultural things which were inhumane and against islam

MazloomYarMasud
07-29-2010, 10:18 AM
Once you call yourself a muslim then you have submitted to the will of Allah! You cannot follow your culture above Islam. That is to mean any aspect in your culture which goes beyond the limits islam has set, then we reject that as muslims. Otherwise if it is within the limits set by Islam then we can follow that part of the culture.

Do we have to uphold Pashtunwali to the core? Will that make us better human beings if we do? Will that make us more successful? No i do not think so. Whereas if we follow Islam will it make us better human beings and successful? Yes!

So nobody will say abandon your culture completely, forget your religion and so on. We keep our culture but we remove the parts of it in conflict with our religion Islam.

With Due respect Saifullah the Muslim world has to be the most backward, corrupted, violent and the worst place to life and expect a life expectancy of on average above 30 years old.

Muslims have been slaughtering eachother for centuries on the grounds that they feel their system is better than the others and that Allah has guided them to kill opponents.

Take the UK for example There is no such thing as Shia vs Sunni because there is law and order and due to the secular nature of the British people nobody really has time to prove to another that their faith is right.

The Muslim World such as Saudi Arabia being the capital of it has to be the most backward place on the planet. They support breast feeding drivers and clerics support the legalization of Slavery. Their litrature and speeches are full of hate and violence and teach children at a very young age that on the day of judgement there will be trees that will tell you a Jew is hiding here come and slaughter him/her.

I hope I didnt offend your deen in anyway but reality is right there in the Muslim world for you to see.

If we follow Pashtunwali which is probably more beneificial than Religion because in Pashtunwali every tribe is counted as one while being judged by your faith always has a violent agenda to it resulting in factions and madrassahs killing eachothers students for a better life or reward in the here after.

Kind Regards

MazloomYarMasud
07-29-2010, 10:19 AM
nonsense...

Because if we keep religion and culture separate then we gonna have jahil customs like swara prevailing
If culture was supposed to be kept separate from religion, then Muhammad (saw) would not have gone against his ancestors/tribes and stop them in doing many customary actions! But Islam came and changed the whole arab society! It allowed the arabs to keep their culture but removed many of their cultural things which were inhumane and against islam

Pashtunwali can be reformed but sadly Muslims oppose Islam being reformed.

Imgine living under the Islamic Califate led by some Lunatic Arab bedion sat in Saudi Arabia with his belly dancing wives declares that females of your family have to breast feed your family driver with accordance to Sharia????

Talk about Jahils.

Kind Regards

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 10:21 AM
MUSLIM WORLD. Islam is a religion my friend and its followers are in no way following it! Maybe a small percentage follow it properly, most of them are following their culture or stuff unrelated to Islam.

Tomorrow if a muslim kills his brother, you gonna blame Islam for that?

So please dont give me examples of Muslim world and Saudi Arabia that has nothing to do with Islam. Muslims are backward coz they left Islam. Remember the past where they were so advanced while west was in stone ages/dark ages. So dont try and teach me about this nonsense of 'muslim world'

My faith doesnt come from Saudi so please stop using this as a point for discussion.

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 10:24 AM
Pashtunwali can be reformed but sadly Muslims oppose Islam being reformed.

Imgine living under the Islamic Califate led by some Lunatic Arab bedion sat in Saudi Arabia with his belly dancing wives declares that females of your family have to breast feed your family driver with accordance to Sharia????

Talk about Jahils.

Kind Regards

Once again your jahiliyat has come out from your comments. You think Saudi is Islam. Islam is Quran and Sunnat not Saudi.

Islam doesnt need to be reformed. Islam gives us guidelines how to live. If we live within those boundaries we are fine. Islam has a banking system which is compatible with any century, its laws are compatible with any century the only thing that needs to be reformed is not our great faith but the reformation is required by the follower who thinks like a jahil and doesnt understand his religion

MazloomYarMasud
07-29-2010, 10:27 AM
MUSLIM WORLD. Islam is a religion my friend and its followers are in no way following it! Maybe a small percentage follow it properly, most of them are following their culture or stuff unrelated to Islam.

Tomorrow if a muslim kills his brother, you gonna blame Islam for that?

So please dont give me examples of Muslim world and Saudi Arabia that has nothing to do with Islam. Muslims are backward coz they left Islam. Remember the past where they were so advanced while west was in stone ages/dark ages. So dont try and teach me about this nonsense of 'muslim world'

My faith doesnt come from Saudi so please stop using this as a point for discussion.

So what is true Islam?

Sufi Way?Shia Way?Wahabi way? Salafi way? Qadiyani way?

You live in the UK. Most of these Muslim countries can not live a day without support or aid given to them from Christian dominated western nations.

Muslim countries are the most intolarant socieities in the world.

Take Pakistan for instance.

A whole christian village was burnt to the ashes with innocent people forced to be held because some Muslim had some Bardee with a Christian villager there.

In Kurram Agency Sunni Pashtun Radicals slaughtered many Pashtun Shias in the name of Islam because a Mullah has deemed Shias as Kaffirs.

The List goes on.

Kind Regards

MazloomYarMasud
07-29-2010, 10:30 AM
Once again your jahiliyat has come out from your comments. You think Saudi is Islam. Islam is Quran and Sunnat not Saudi.

Islam doesnt need to be reformed. Islam gives us guidelines how to live. If we live within those boundaries we are fine. Islam has a banking system which is compatible with any century, its laws are compatible with any century the only thing that needs to be reformed is not our great faith but the reformation is required by the follower who thinks like a jahil and doesnt understand his religion

I guess you have not heard of Interpretation of Islam.

There is no such thing as a Pure and one Islam.

Mankind himself has made things confusing.

Dont call me a Jahil when you dont know anything about me.

You support Pashtunistan right? But Islamically that is HARAM because you are being a Munafiq by dividing Muslims away from fellow Muslims.

We have debated about this whole Islam isnt like this and Islam is like this

Saifullah you are viewing Islam to suit you only but there will be others who will oppose what you say.

Kind Regards

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 10:49 AM
Sorry my view of Pashtunistan is to unite Pashtuns who are divided at the moment. And Islam is not against uniting your family! I dont preach rascism which means i am not doing something haram and i will not say to my pashtuns in my kind of pashtunistan to not be friends with other good muslims. If there are genuine good muslims around us then we must accept them. Otherwise i think they should stay away from munafiq muslims.

There is Islam in its basic form, some things are open to interpretation but the main core of islam is clear. Worship one god, dont be a munafiq, dont be a lier, dont cheat, pray, fast, zakat, earn halal money. Millions of things i can write, so why you making something so simple into something complicated??

We are talking about Saudi which you keep mentioning. Sorry that is not my source of Islam. That is why i am calling you jahil for trying to make that point of Saudi in every discussion.

No I view Islam the way it should be viewed. Simple religion which it says in the Quran. Where it tells us READ. It doesnt say go to saudi to read Quran or go to pashtuns to read Quran. It asks you to READ, it asks you to THINK, it asks you to use your brain! So if anyone opposes me in this thinking, thats their problem. Will misguided people ever accept the truth even when truth is clear? Thats not my problem to worry about people not accepting truth.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 10:50 AM
Once you call yourself a muslim then you have submitted to the will of Allah! You cannot follow your culture above Islam. That is to mean any aspect in your culture which goes beyond the limits islam has set, then we reject that as muslims. Otherwise if it is within the limits set by Islam then we can follow that part of the culture.

Do we have to uphold Pashtunwali to the core? Will that make us better human beings if we do? Will that make us more successful? No i do not think so. Whereas if we follow Islam will it make us better human beings and successful? Yes!

So nobody will say abandon your culture completely, forget your religion and so on. We keep our culture but we remove the parts of it in conflict with our religion Islam.

Word.

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 10:51 AM
So what is true Islam?

Sufi Way?Shia Way?Wahabi way? Salafi way? Qadiyani way?

You live in the UK. Most of these Muslim countries can not live a day without support or aid given to them from Christian dominated western nations.

Muslim countries are the most intolarant socieities in the world.

Take Pakistan for instance.

A whole christian village was burnt to the ashes with innocent people forced to be held because some Muslim had some Bardee with a Christian villager there.

In Kurram Agency Sunni Pashtun Radicals slaughtered many Pashtun Shias in the name of Islam because a Mullah has deemed Shias as Kaffirs.

The List goes on.

Kind Regards

Once again you mention events which are against Islam. Why do you relate a jahil muslim to Islam? If a muslim drinks alcohol, he is still a muslim. But that doesnt mean Islam is to blame because Islam tells him not to drink.

Intolerance is not a good thing, murdering people for no reason is not a good and Islam does not support it.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 10:54 AM
This is the main issue we are discussing in this thread.Islam being only a religion like any other religion has nothing to do with the culture of a people, nation or ethnic group. Islam being a religion only deals with your beliefs, modes of worship and ethics. If an element of culture goes beyond your belief for example a culture establishes two gods instead of one then it is against Islam but other elements of culture as beard, dress, music, arts and crafts has nothing to do religion.

Pashtunwali is the culture and society of Pashtuns not the religion. We must strike a balance between our culture and society and our religion. Otherwise religious pandits and taliban will wipe out our culture, our dances, our music, our poetry, our arts and our social values. The clash we see in the shape of Taliban and Mullas when they kill Pashtun singers, artists and stop all Pashtun cultural events , festivals and musical programmes and instead introducing and implementing a fireign Arab culture.

The soultion is keeping the religion and the culture or society separate. Similarly separating politics, economics and science from the religion. This is the only way both religion and non religion can mutually survive.


My brother in one thread you contradicted yourself:

Islam being only a religion like any other religion has nothing to do with the culture of a people, nation or ethnic group.If an element of culture goes beyond your belief for example a culture establishes two gods instead of one then it is against IslamThe fact that you used religion to distinguish how many gods there is a proof that religion is the final say.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 11:06 AM
Mazloomyar Jana,

Islam is not like any other religion. Islam claims to be superior over all other religions. No other religion claims this. This in itself is proof enough that Islam is superior.

You can say that a KIA is equal to a BMW, only and only because they both look like a car. However, there is more than what meets the eye--the BMW is far more superior.

Someone poor can only afford a KIA and some rich can afford a BMW.

Someone with a poor intellect will think that a statue is god, whereas someone with a rich intellect will think that a statue can bring neither harm nor can it bring any good. The person with a rich capacity will settle for that True God that can do good and can do harm.

Therefore, all religions are not equal. It depends on the intellectual capacity of their adherents.

MazloomYarMasud
07-29-2010, 11:21 AM
Once again you mention events which are against Islam. Why do you relate a jahil muslim to Islam? If a muslim drinks alcohol, he is still a muslim. But that doesnt mean Islam is to blame because Islam tells him not to drink.

Intolerance is not a good thing, murdering people for no reason is not a good and Islam does not support it.

So why in Islam christians and jews can not practice their faith openly and build their buildings of worship in a Islamic state?

Why are non Muslims classed as second class citizens?

You see Saifullah we have debated all this stuff before on past threads.

You are interpretating Islam to suit your view only but as I said before there will be muslims here who will oppose your view and the cycle continues.

If Islam was so simple and uncomplicated then we wouldnt have shias sufis sunnis wahabists salafis etc etc etc

You say Islam preaches Peace and tolarance but there are people who say Islam preaches offensive jihad which means by Islam one has to invade non muslim lands and enforce Islam.

Kind Regards

MazloomYarMasud
07-29-2010, 11:24 AM
Mazloomyar Jana,

Islam is not like any other religion. Islam claims to be superior over all other religions. No other religion claims this. This in itself is proof enough that Islam is superior.

You can say that a KIA is equal to a BMW, only and only because they both look like a car. However, there is more than what meets the eye--the BMW is far more superior.

Someone poor can only afford a KIA and some rich can afford a BMW.

Someone with a poor intellect will think that a statue is god, whereas someone with a rich intellect will think that a statue can bring neither harm nor can it bring any good. The person with a rich capacity will settle for that True God that can do good and can do harm.

Therefore, all religions are not equal. It depends on the intellectual capacity of their adherents.

One can also say Science is much suprioer than all faiths

as science has invented cures and helped society modernize.

Islam is no different than all the other past faiths before it.

Islam has its own version of events that happened when it was never even born and secondly to make things even more amusing Islam claims the past were all muslims.

Kind Regards

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 11:26 AM
So why in Islam christians and jews can not practice their faith openly and build their buildings of worship in a Islamic state?

Why are non Muslims classed as second class citizens?

You see Saifullah we have debated all this stuff before on past threads.

You are interpretating Islam to suit your view only but as I said before there will be muslims here who will oppose your view and the cycle continues.

If Islam was so simple and uncomplicated then we wouldnt have shias sufis sunnis wahabists salafis etc etc etc

You say Islam preaches Peace and tolarance but there are people who say Islam preaches offensive jihad which means by Islam one has to invade non muslim lands and enforce Islam.

Kind Regards

You think there should be one law peace and tolerance. When i say peace and tolerance it doesnt mean you should become a peaceful person at ALL TIMES. If somebody murders your child in front of you and you have a chance to kill that murderer before he kills more people, you will do it. You wont sit there and say oh peace my brother and have a discussion with him to say oh its ok you killed my child, my religion is peace so just stop. So everything has a time and Islam is not a pacifist religion where you just sit and accept everything. Forget about invading non-muslim lands, the so-called muslim lands dont enforce Islam so that doesnt even need discussion.

JAMALUDEEN
07-29-2010, 11:28 AM
One can also say Science is much suprioer than all faiths

as science has invented cures and helped society modernize.

Islam is no different than all the other past faiths before it.

Islam has its own version of events that happened when it was never even born and secondly to make things even more amusing Islam claims the past were all muslims.

Kind Regards

Is science a faith? Religion? Please elaborate on that point

JAMALUDEEN
07-29-2010, 11:31 AM
You think there should be one law peace and tolerance. When i say peace and tolerance it doesnt mean you should become a peaceful person at ALL TIMES. If somebody murders your child in front of you and you have a chance to kill that murderer before he kills more people, you will do it. You wont sit there and say oh peace my brother and have a discussion with him to say oh its ok you killed my child, my religion is peace so just stop. So everything has a time and Islam is not a pacifist religion where you just sit and accept everything. Forget about invading non-muslim lands, the so-called muslim lands dont enforce Islam so that doesnt even need discussion.

It is everyones right to defend themselves, but unfortunately Mazlom doesn't seem to get it. He speaks of peace and harmony while he hates on tajiks and punjabis. He wants to arm himself and go on a killing spree.

A truly corrupt soul. Indeed.

Saifullah
07-29-2010, 11:32 AM
Is science a faith? Religion? Please elaborate on that point

He doesnt really the core of science means OBSERVATION. He calls that a faith. LOL

Islam is a faith which promotes humans to observe the sky, observe the creation and so on. This is science aspect which Islam promotes to understand how Allah has created everything.

spogmai shaglay
07-29-2010, 11:36 AM
According to me the title of the thread is being misinterpreted as it says,"Islam is just a religion like any other religion"..... the enitire artcile doesnt deal with this issue only.......

people need to read the entire article in order to relate it to the title....as its not at all a comparative study of religions....but religion and other aspects of life......

osho, i personally feel that you should have had a different title for your article as its is highly controversial where people feel that Islam is being compared to other religions and is thought to be like any other religion....... when you strongly believe that Islam is the best religions

and equality interms of respect and being secular..which is ones own perception...

if you could think of changing the title or adding something more to it so that its not misinterpreted...just a suggestion....

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 11:46 AM
One can also say Science is much suprioer than all faiths

as science has invented cures and helped society modernize.

Islam is no different than all the other past faiths before it.

Islam has its own version of events that happened when it was never even born and secondly to make things even more amusing Islam claims the past were all muslims.

Kind Regards

Science does not invent things--science only explains physical things. Science has not contradicted Islam in its explanation of physical things. Science has proven other religions false but not Islam, for example, evolution.

PFgulalai
07-29-2010, 07:51 PM
The is a BIG difference between the nature/subject and mechanism of Science and religion.Science is based on identification, observation, experimentation, evidence/facts and the universality of those facts about natural phenomena.Science is a continuous effort of seeking truth and wisdom.

Religion, on the other hand, is simply a belief in the existence of a powerful/supreme supernatural being(s). Faith in such supernatural beings do not require the evidence for its existence.

The term "faith" in the discussions of Science VS Religion mostly imply "religious faith". Therefore, Science does not qualify as "faith" per se, just like Islamic, Jewish, Christian faiths etc.

Is science a faith? Religion? Please elaborate on that point

PFgulalai
07-29-2010, 07:57 PM
Science does not invent things--science only explains physical things.

Just tell me MWMN, who invented this computer and internet for you that you are using right now? You must be having an electricty and bulb in your room/house. Oh, how about refrigerator, TV, Phones, Microwaves,cars, aeroplanes, trains, steam engines, factories.....?
Please visit this really simple site to educate yourself about the INVENTIONS OF SCIENCE
http://inventors.about.com/od/timelines/a/Nineteenth_2.htm (http://inventors.about.com/od/timelines/a/Nineteenth_2.htm)

Science has not contradicted Islam in its explanation of physical things. Science has proven other religions false but not Islam, for example, evolution.

There is no concept of God in Science.There is concept of Allah (God) in Islam.Hence, both CONTRADICT each other strongly.

Science has proven other religions false but not Islam, for example, evolution.

Science provides enough information in the form of evolution about the non-existence of God.Hence, it has proven that no Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Krishna etc exists.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 09:24 PM
Just tell me MWMN, who invented this computer and internet for you that you are using right now? You must be having an electricty and bulb in your room/house. Oh, how about refrigerator, TV, Phones, Microwaves,cars, aeroplanes, trains, steam engines, factories.....?
Please visit this really simple site to educate yourself about the INVENTIONS OF SCIENCE
http://inventors.about.com/od/timelines/a/Nineteenth_2.htm

Beloved sister,

Where did the material come to make the computer? Nature! Who created nature? No one? What was the basis of the computer? The human mind!

How does current flow? Metal! Who created metal? No one?

How could cell phones work if there was no means of transmitting. Transmission is possible because our physical environment has already been equipped by nature. Who created nature? No one?

All of these inventions is the mind of man, however, God reveals to man. The prime example is the sewing machine.

How were we able to have a internal and external combustion? Coal and crude oil! Who created them and for what reason? No one? It was created by default?



There is no concept of God in Science.There is concept of Allah (God) in Islam.Hence, both CONTRADICT each other strongly.

Science only deals with physical matter. However, why is there such consistency in science? Was it a fluke? Also, why is it that we are "investigating." Science is in the process of figuring out how things work. We don't invent out of the blue, we invent based on a foundation that already exists.


Science provides enough information in the form of evolution about the non-existence of God.Hence, it has proven that no Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Krishna etc exists.

Actually, no. The Quran does not reject evolution. The term is modern but the concept is old. 6th century Arabia was not advanced enough to know that, but the concept came from somewhere? Where did Hadhrat Muhammad forge it from?:)

PFgulalai
07-29-2010, 11:36 PM
Beloved sister,Where did the material come to make the computer? Nature! Who created nature? No one? What was the basis of the computer? The human mind!
How does current flow? Metal! Who created metal? No one?
How could cell phones work if there was no means of transmitting. Transmission is possible because our physical environment has already been equipped by nature. Who created nature? No one?

The answer to all your questions is MATTER. According to the Law of Coservation of Energy, Matter can neither be created or destroyed. It transforms from one form to another but the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant.

All of these inventions is the mind of man, however, God reveals to man. The prime example is the sewing machine.

This morning our mice embyos died in a lab experiment.They were supposed to help us in making this anticancer drug which could have saved millions of people on earth. Why you think God did not reveal anything to us today? Oh!! Was it because God wanted to be cruel to cancer patients? *thinking*

How were we able to have a internal and external combustion? Coal and crude oil! Who created them and for what reason? No one? It was created by default?

Some men worked hard and struggled a lot to make our lives better without even realizing that one day we will not acknowledge their INVENTED machines. They had BRAINS that most of us lack, unfortunately, when it comes to understanding Science.


Science only deals with physical matter. However, why is there such consistency in science? Was it a fluke? Also, why is it that we are "investigating." Science is in the process of figuring out how things work. We don't invent out of the blue, we invent based on a foundation that already exists.

Science deals with world and everything in world is made up of Matter. Matter is present in its crude form and we are just refining it into different forms with the help of science. There is no existing foundation for us.We make our our foundations with our BRAINS, with our THINKING POWER, with our HARD WORK....not with baseless and lame claims all the time.


Actually, no. The Quran does not reject evolution. The term is modern but the concept is old. 6th century Arabia was not advanced enough to know that, but the concept came from somewhere? Where did Hadhrat Muhammad forge it from?:)

Actually yes, Quran and every other Holy Book must refute Evolution since it is antithesis of the religious belief. The theory of Evolution was presented by Charles Darwin in 1859 and later heavily researched and accepted by modern scientists. You can live in the state of denial as much as you want to, but the fact remains that Darwin is the winner!!! Peace

Levanaye Zalmaye
07-29-2010, 11:37 PM
http://www.pashtunforums.com/avatars/meemwawmeemnoon-1108.gif?dateline=1273639343

Beloved brother and apple of my eye, I will start my reply to your post with one of Shakespeare's finest sonnets on love:

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this and this gives life to thee.


Yeah, you argue that the material used to make modern inventions existed in nature and therefore, somehow, all of man's achievements should be attributed to some genderless deity. This argument is as old as it is immature and nonsensical but it is unfortunately enough to sway those of lesser understanding. I am a man of great understanding, however.

Men (and perhaps a couple of women here and there) make contributions to the world with whatever they can find in it. They use their own brains independent of any divine guidance to invent something, which is improved by some other individual decades later and which continues to improve thanks to human (and not divine) ingenuity. Nature provides us with a tree (although if you think about it, we are cousins to the trees since we all came from the same simple organisms and are hence we are 'nature' ourselves). Man takes wood from that tree to make a house or a cart. He uses his own hands and his own mind. Why should the credit for his hard work go to some god who you cannot even prove exists?

Secondly, no one created metal (although we humans created metal alloys), no one created iron ore, no one created they way sound travels, no one created buoyancy, etc. It's all natural phenomena and man, through his quest for knowledge, has been finding the optimal use of the resources around him on his own.

Moreover, if we do follow your argument and all credit goes to Allah (InzimamulHaq used to use this phrase, by the way - I always knew there was something common....), what do you say about the invention of the B2 bomber, the F-16s, the Merkeva tanks, Israel's nuclear arsenal, poles that strippers with implants dance around, etc, etc? Should God be given the credit for their invention especially since most of those things have been crushing Muslim women and children since the 1940s?


You also said that scienticians invent "based on a foundation that already exists". Those foundations were laid down by scientists of the past, must of whom did not believe in gods.


Lastly, 9/10 Islamic scholars will tell you that Islam rejects evolution altogether or huge parts of it. Unfortunately, your sect/philosophical school represents hardly 1-2% of Islam.

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-29-2010, 11:52 PM
Dear brother,

Does the argument become invalid just because they are old? I think not! In fact your argument is as old: show me God. That is what you are looking for.

What you fail to realize is that man doe not change or alter nature at will. Man cannot change nature. Man studies how nature works and adapts to it. If you say that nature came to being all on its own, then I am pretty sure that you would call that person an idiot who claims that the Mona Lisa was painted all by itself.

The point of the matter is that you are pretty elementary with the argument that God has not proven Himself. Of course He has. You just don't want to accept it or fail to see it. (pun intended)

The fact that human beings base all of the systems on what nature has already furnished is a clearly-cut answer that there is more than meets the eye.

You are no different that than person who wants people to just believe in God because he says so, without logical reasoning. Your argument is parallel to that. You want to see Him face to face, yet in everything else you do, you bring out logical reasoning.

See the contradiction?

MeemWawMeemNoon
07-30-2010, 12:13 AM
The answer to all your questions is MATTER. According to the Law of Coservation of Energy, Matter can neither be created or destroyed. It transforms from one form to another but the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant.

Such a complex system came to be ALL on its own?

This morning our mice embyos died in a lab experiment.They were supposed to help us in making this anticancer drug which could have saved millions of people on earth. Why you think God did not reveal anything to us today? Oh!! Was it because God wanted to be cruel to cancer patients? *thinking*

Do you think that everything is science was discovered in one shot? By created failures man is forced to look further and deeper as to figure out why it failed. It is natural. Allah has created a system, you are probably not familiar with that system that is why your experiment failed. Had you been familiar with the system there would have been no need for you to do experiments. The fact that you did experiments show that you are not 100% on the system. By you failing proves that you need to do more work.

If you take God out of the picture, you are still stuck with a dilemma. So, understand that knowledge is reveal in due time. Why is it that the things we know today were not understood before? It becomes clearer with time.





Some men worked hard and struggled a lot to make our lives better without even realizing that one day we will not acknowledge their INVENTED machines. They had BRAINS that most of us lack, unfortunately, when it comes to understanding Science.

Exactly, what a shame. :( They did it in vain. Or did they? Allah says that he rewards those who make life easy for people.




Science deals with world and everything in world is made up of Matter. Matter is present in its crude form and we are just refining it into different forms with the help of science. There is no existing foundation for us.We make our our foundations with our BRAINS, with our THINKING POWER, with our HARD WORK....not with baseless and lame claims all the time.

It is a fact that there is such a thing called spirituality. You feel it everyday. Love is one, for example. Measure it for me. Would you. Science only deals with the physical world.




Actually yes, Quran and every other Holy Book must refute Evolution since it is antithesis of the religious belief. The theory of Evolution was presented by Charles Darwin in 1859 and later heavily researched and accepted by modern scientists. You can live in the state of denial as much as you want to, but the fact remains that Darwin is the winner!!!

[71:13] ‘What is the matter with you that you expect not wisdom and staidness from Allah?
[71:14] ‘And He has created you in different forms and different conditions.
[71:15] ‘Have you not seen how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony,
[71:16] ‘And has placed the moon therein as a light, and made the sun as a lamp?
[71:17] ‘And Allah has caused you to grow as a good growth from the earth,
[71:18] ‘Then will He cause you to return thereto, and He will bring you forth a new bringing forth.

MazloomYarMasud
07-30-2010, 03:13 AM
It is everyones right to defend themselves, but unfortunately Mazlom doesn't seem to get it. He speaks of peace and harmony while he hates on tajiks and punjabis. He wants to arm himself and go on a killing spree.

A truly corrupt soul. Indeed.

I wish to arm all Pashtuns and go on a revolution.

This is what you dont get my friend.

Punjabis are using Relgion to occupy us and Tajiks are using Religion to keep us.

Once we get over this Relgionous Talk then we can break the chains of Slavery.

How Am i a corrupted soul? I have done my fair share for my people unlike some you sit in the west and yap their mouth about jahils blah blah blah!

You guys dont understand that if you want Pashtun Unity it can not be acheived at present because the Muslim Ummah will be divided. Pakistan is a officially reconised Muslim state and its Haram to divide Pashtun Muslims away from Punjabi Muslims. Its Haram! people such as me according to Lunatic Muslims ISI are deemed dividers and enemies of the Muslim State

So if you are even brave enough to stand up to them and tell them face to face that I am not slave of some MUllah or some Arab khalifate MUslim Ummah and I demand a Pashtun state then maybe god will shower you with angels and flowers for being confident and a real man.

Kind Regards

MazloomYarMasud
07-30-2010, 03:15 AM
He doesnt really the core of science means OBSERVATION. He calls that a faith. LOL

Islam is a faith which promotes humans to observe the sky, observe the creation and so on. This is science aspect which Islam promotes to understand how Allah has created everything.

Islam promotes division amongsts humanity just like other faiths.

Muslims will only go the Heaven and kaffirs will burn in hell.

same with christians and jews

its all a gang

and a way to control the masses

JAMALUDEEN
07-30-2010, 06:29 AM
I wish to arm all Pashtuns and go on a revolution.

This is what you dont get my friend.

Punjabis are using Relgion to occupy us and Tajiks are using Religion to keep us.

Once we get over this Relgionous Talk then we can break the chains of Slavery.

How Am i a corrupted soul? I have done my fair share for my people unlike some you sit in the west and yap their mouth about jahils blah blah blah!

You guys dont understand that if you want Pashtun Unity it can not be acheived at present because the Muslim Ummah will be divided. Pakistan is a officially reconised Muslim state and its Haram to divide Pashtun Muslims away from Punjabi Muslims. Its Haram! people such as me according to Lunatic Muslims ISI are deemed dividers and enemies of the Muslim State

So if you are even brave enough to stand up to them and tell them face to face that I am not slave of some MUllah or some Arab khalifate MUslim Ummah and I demand a Pashtun state then maybe god will shower you with angels and flowers for being confident and a real man.

Kind Regards

So according to you Pakistanis are all ISI agents, working to enslave Pashtuns.

I have already explained to you that, i have never backed up the Pakistani Government or preferred their methods. It is every human beings right to defend themselves from them, but that doesn't mean, i hate their citizens (Punjabis) or go on a revolution to erase them. They are all human beings, just like us. You have got a lot of hatred in your heart man, i would hate to be you. You sound like Hitler sometimes...ethnic cleansing, You dig?

I have had arguments with Punjabis and Tajiks on many occasions, but besides those arguments most of them turned out to be very good guys and are friends with me. One of my best mate is an Ahmadi, and besides the difference of faith and beliefs, i still respect him as a human being. The bad are in the minority, just like you are the minority in here.

Your claims are absurd and confusing. On one side, you speak of peace and harmony, while in the mean time, you wish to arm all Pashtuns and go on a revolution which is not so peaceful. Then instead of uniting Pashtuns, you are dividing us more by referring to people who do not agree with you as "YOU GUYS". I am not with the ISI, LOL neither are you, but so far what have you done against the Pakistani Government.

Please share with us your achievements, that has made a difference.

Anyways, whatever your agenda. I wish you best of luck in it and not all Pashtuns have a weak imaan like you.


P.S. this cliche is getting old.

"I have done my fair share for my people unlike some you sit in the west and yap their mouth about jahils blah blah blah!"

Saifullah
07-30-2010, 09:08 AM
Islam promotes division amongsts humanity just like other faiths.

Muslims will only go the Heaven and kaffirs will burn in hell.

same with christians and jews

its all a gang

and a way to control the masses

How does Islam promote division, every human is born a muslim and it is their parents who turn them away from Islam. It is shaytan who divides humans and Islam is deen e fitrat. All shaytan will say i only whispered to the humans i never made them do anything.

Saifullah
07-30-2010, 09:15 AM
I wish to arm all Pashtuns and go on a revolution.

This is what you dont get my friend.

Punjabis are using Relgion to occupy us and Tajiks are using Religion to keep us.

Once we get over this Relgionous Talk then we can break the chains of Slavery.

How Am i a corrupted soul? I have done my fair share for my people unlike some you sit in the west and yap their mouth about jahils blah blah blah!

You guys dont understand that if you want Pashtun Unity it can not be acheived at present because the Muslim Ummah will be divided. Pakistan is a officially reconised Muslim state and its Haram to divide Pashtun Muslims away from Punjabi Muslims. Its Haram! people such as me according to Lunatic Muslims ISI are deemed dividers and enemies of the Muslim State

So if you are even brave enough to stand up to them and tell them face to face that I am not slave of some MUllah or some Arab khalifate MUslim Ummah and I demand a Pashtun state then maybe god will shower you with angels and flowers for being confident and a real man.

Kind Regards
Pashtuns are not in a strong state to demand their own territory. They cant even develop their own villages without foreign help. They cannot stand on their own two feet and you wanna discuss having a separate state. We think way far ahead of ourselves. We should take things one step at a time. Firstly amongst ourselves we need to stop fighting and to remove our jahil practices from our society. Then slowly and slowly we can become better

MazloomYarMasud
07-30-2010, 09:27 AM
So according to you Pakistanis are all ISI agents, working to enslave Pashtuns.

I have already explained to you that, i have never backed up the Pakistani Government or preferred their methods. It is every human beings right to defend themselves from them, but that doesn't mean, i hate their citizens (Punjabis) or go on a revolution to erase them. They are all human beings, just like us. You have got a lot of hatred in your heart man, i would hate to be you. You sound like Hitler sometimes...ethnic cleansing, You dig?

I have had arguments with Punjabis and Tajiks on many occasions, but besides those arguments most of them turned out to be very good guys and are friends with me. One of my best mate is an Ahmadi, and besides the difference of faith and beliefs, i still respect him as a human being. The bad are in the minority, just like you are the minority in here.

Your claims are absurd and confusing. On one side, you speak of peace and harmony, while in the mean time, you wish to arm all Pashtuns and go on a revolution which is not so peaceful. Then instead of uniting Pashtuns, you are dividing us more by referring to people who do not agree with you as "YOU GUYS". I am not with the ISI, LOL neither are you, but so far what have you done against the Pakistani Government.

Please share with us your achievements, that has made a difference.

Anyways, whatever your agenda. I wish you best of luck in it and not all Pashtuns have a weak imaan like you.


P.S. this cliche is getting old.

"I have done my fair share for my people unlike some you sit in the west and yap their mouth about jahils blah blah blah!"

I spent weeks helping IDPS in DI Khan.

I spent 3 years on youtube promoting Pashtun unity

I went to Makeen South Waziristan during Army operation just to atleast get three interviews of tribesmen.

I was pulled over four times and i had my one camera smashed by pakistan army in gomal.

I saved up over 1000 pound and gave it in cash to hungary homeless pashtuns who were burning in the heat living in tents.

So I did all this without a strong imaan.

Its people Such as Jamaludeen who pushes the whole Muslim Unity crap to push pashtuns forward to occupation by Afghan Tajiks and Punjabi Paakistanis.

If time of war came when pashtuns are united and facing a common enemy, you will be the guy waving the quran in your hand preaching that we must not fight and that allah will curse us if we fight a fellow muslims.

Whats so cliche about what Jamaludeen?

Pashtuns have been fighting for Islam for decades and its only benefitted outsiders as Pashtuns are taught that they are the defenders of the gate of Islam.

Afghanistan is in its state today because they sold out to Farsiwans and choose to adapt Farsi as ther mother tongue.

Pakistan and Afghanistan is no good for Pashtuns any more.

There should be a soley pashtun state, no more unity with enemys and no more islamic talk of uniting with any enemy.

Kind Regards

p.s. Its good you have tajik and punjabi friends maybe they will help you in your cause for Pashtun unity but please do not drag pashtuns into the realms of fantasies of a society where pashtuns will be treated equally and we can all sit down and have dhaal and kobeda kebabs and be free.

Levanaye Zalmaye
08-01-2010, 02:21 AM
Dear brother,

Does the argument become invalid just because they are old? I think not! In fact your argument is as old: show me God. That is what you are looking for.

What you fail to realize is that man doe not change or alter nature at will. Man cannot change nature. Man studies how nature works and adapts to it. If you say that nature came to being all on its own, then I am pretty sure that you would call that person an idiot who claims that the Mona Lisa was painted all by itself.

The point of the matter is that you are pretty elementary with the argument that God has not proven Himself. Of course He has. You just don't want to accept it or fail to see it. (pun intended)

The fact that human beings base all of the systems on what nature has already furnished is a clearly-cut answer that there is more than meets the eye.

You are no different that than person who wants people to just believe in God because he says so, without logical reasoning. Your argument is parallel to that. You want to see Him face to face, yet in everything else you do, you bring out logical reasoning.

See the contradiction?

It's logical to believe in something you can see for yourself. I see neither a contradiction nor any parallel. For someone to make the claim that he/she/it is the creator of the universe, every word from that entity and its emissaries must be scrutinized to the fullest extent because someone making that claim must be as close to perfect as possible. Up till today, no one has passed that test.

Man can change nature. Artificial selection. Dog breeding. Great Dane (http://img.laoupload.com/images/qv8aypeq4kfb64o4z0oc.jpg) vs Chihuahua (http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/tiny-teacup-chihuahua.jpg). We engineered both of them from this (http://www.gg.rhul.ac.uk/MScQS/2007/Flower/wolf.jpg). Now are you gonna take away the credit of man's own hard work and ingeunity by saying that this was already in nature so god should be accredited with it?

I give you a boulder, you make a naked male sculpture (http://homefitnessbody.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/ifdavidwasamoderndayman.jpg) with a small penis out of it and I say that the sculpture already existed inside the rock and no credit should go to you but it should go to God because He created the rock in the first place. Come to think of it, rocks came into being as the earth cooled but of course, you'll accredit your own personal deity with that as well.

Lastly, please do show us where god has proven himself. It will save me a lot of trouble and an afterlife of playing poker with Hitler, Stalin and Mother Teresa. I suck at poker - I can't bluff, I can't keep my chips and I don't know when to fold. "All in" is my best strategy. And it fails.

آريا
08-01-2010, 02:41 AM
It's logical to believe in something you can see for yourself. I see neither a contradiction nor any parallel.
To claim Allah who is defined in the islamic way doesn't exist is wrong, because there is no way one can disprove.
For someone to make the claim that he/she/it is the creator of the universe, every word from that entity and its emissaries must be scrutinized to the fullest extent because someone making that claim must be as close to perfect as possible. Up till today, no one has passed that test.
Does Allah not pass that test??

Levanaye Zalmaye
08-01-2010, 02:44 AM
To claim Allah who is defined in the islamic way doesn't exist is wrong, because there is no way one can disprove.

Hence the onus (burden of proof) comes upon the claimer and not the denier.

Does Allah not pass that test??

If either Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Odin, Brahma or the Juju spirit had clearly passed the test, the whole world, or at least the most knowledgeable people, would follow the winner.

آريا
08-01-2010, 03:14 AM
Hence the onus (burden of proof) comes upon the claimer and not the denier.
Those who claim Allah doesn't exist are the claimers actually - the burden of proof is on them from my viewpoint.

If either Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Odin, Brahma or the Juju spirit had clearly passed the test, the whole world, or at least the most knowledgeable people, would follow the winner.
Wrora do you expect the whole world to believe in Allah? The whole world is not good and some of it is evil.

Saifullah
08-01-2010, 11:48 AM
I dont understand this fascination with trying to go extremely deep into matters. It is like the story of the Jews in surah al bakarah. Allah told them to slaughter the cow, if i am correct. Jews kept asking what colour is, what type is it and kept on questioning. Making things complicated for themselves

MeemWawMeemNoon
11-20-2010, 11:47 PM
It's possible that I find the concept of monotheism of Islam more reasonable, or that I prefer some other aspects or teachings of Islam to those of other religions. But that STILL doesn't make Islam better than other religions to me. It remains of equal importance and respect as all other religions.

Let me bring you down memory lane. Just one example, if you wish we can go through many more threads. :)

According to you:

atheism=monotheism=polytheism.

Alchemist
01-23-2011, 08:43 PM
Dear Osho,

Your definitions are curtailed to your own biases and thus your argument is self contained and double looped in itself. You have taken your preposition as your conclusion and your conclusion as your preposition.

You stated that because you have not found anyone who can convince you that Islam has influence over all other spheres of life then it means that it is not such. Then you define religion as ascribing to three facets, belief, faith and morality. However this can be true of even a philosophy like Enlightenment. Hence your definition of religion is flawed since the premises are too broad and universal. For your information: Religion, in truth, has 4 aspects - worship in the form of communal ritual, engages the people politically 5 times a day. Psychopaths do not want to bow down 5 times a day and stand shoulder to shoulder with others. In this respect, religion defines society as a whole, this is not true for only Muslims but also Jews and Christains.

What people like you fail to understand is the concept of monotheism. Belief in One God, means that everything you said is bogus, since ultimately there is ONE Judge whose opinion makes the difference in all the universes! This means that a muslim, or for that matter any religious person, has to come to grips with his own faults as a human being and humble himself before his own thoughts and actions. The aim and purpose of Morality, Worship and Belief is Taqwa, Consciousness of God. This means that the hudood, the boundaries set by Allah will apply to human behaviour in all times and places! More importantly, Muslims, Christains and Jews all believe that their lives are predetermined by Allah, in Al-Lawhil-Mahfooz (The Mother of all Books). This means that each believer introspects and reflects on their experiences and their purposes in light of what Allah wills! This does not only apply to individuals, but to entire societies who believe their destiny is in the Hands of Allah! The progeny of Muhammed, sallahahualihiwasalam, were politically engaged. Imam Jaffar, the great great great grandchild of the Prophet peace be upon him had founded a school that taught secular knowledge of the sciences, such as botany, chemistry and physics etc. Islam is a complete way of life, as it was exemplified by the complete man who was chosen by Allah to deliver it.
Perhaps what you are expecting is a manual for every form of action and possibility in your existence. One of the sifat, attribute, of Allah is that He is the Originator ( AL Mubdee), nothing He creates is ever replicated, each creation is unique...as you are born none like you was or will be born who is EXACTLY the same...because situations always change! Thus, what Islam offers are principles necessary for living a proper life. Keeping in mind that the goals of Islam are never worldly! Muslims are encouraged to give zakat so that their hearts become cleaned of greed. Islam gives you the necessary habits to ward off the vices and evils that such institutions created for worldly life bring about...the appetite for lust, greed, gluttony, envy, jealousy, pride and vanity ..all of which are destroying so called "democratic" societies.

As a side note, eveything else you said about Islam was based on cliches and orientalist stereotypes. Because Muslims has to keep exact time of their prayers, they had to make exact measurement devices for measuring the movement of the sun, and to that they had to measure the movement of the stars...brilliant Muslim scholars calculated the exact length of the year and the correct helical arrangement of the solar system ..and some even allege that Copernicus had found his ideas from the Arabs. The Quran encourages the believers to gaze upon the geology of the land, look at the stars and the differences between the creatures, that crawl, walk and wiggle on their bellies so that they see His Signs. Some of the greatest physicians, mathematicians and philosophers were likewise well known for their piety in Islam...indeed Islam encourages the believers to remember Allah all the time and turn to him in all affairs...therefore asking a Muslim to compartmentalize his life away from Allah is to ask him to leave his religion all together. You atheists and agnostistics and what not don't seem to understand this simple religion and choose to make your own lives difficult. For us the way is clear as day light. What we can discern from the Quran is not the same as what you do. All you manage to do is expose your own folly and pride by writing condescendingly about a Religion that is followed by 1 in 5 people on the planet!
If any of you grasp theology and have reservations founded on concrete rationals that can be worded simply, then I'd be happy to reveal more about this religion. However, my guess is that you are apathetic towards religion, and that your opinions are born of intellectual laziness, and not a part of the inquisitive nature of your genius. Osho, seeing people actually thanked you for writing such baseless mind numbing nonsense only goes to give weight to my suspicion towards murtads.

Catya Sher
01-23-2011, 09:06 PM
"... my guess is that you are apathetic towards religion, and that your opinions are born of intellectual laziness, and not a part of the inquisitive nature of your genius. Osho, seeing people actually thanked you for writing such baseless mind numbing nonsense only goes to give weight to my suspicion..."

The entire statement was excellent, but this last segment really hit home.
I hope and pray these people will read Alchemist's powerful words
and do the necessary reflection to return to belief.

graveyardofempires
01-24-2011, 08:25 AM
Islam is the true religion and Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the final massenger of Allah.
full stop

Badlun
01-24-2011, 10:27 AM
I think we had enough discussion on this issue. Islam is a religion. I admit. I aslo admit that Allah is one and Muhammad is his final prophet.Having said I stress that Islam is not a complete system which gives full guidance for politics, culture, society, economy, science , technology, philosophy, social sciences, natural sciences etc. Islam gives full and excellent guidance for beliefs, worship and morality but nothing beyond that.Zakat being a charity is a moral concept not ab economic ssytem. Consultation or shura is a moral advice but not a political system.

For politics we can have democracy, for ecomocs capitalism, for society and culture Pashtunwali and then all sciences and technologies.If we understand this simple paradgm then Islam will remain as a religion and we will become a modern developed nation. This is the moddle way beween atheism and the system of Taliban or wahabi obscurantists.

Alchemist
01-24-2011, 02:13 PM
^ You believe that Islam is a religion but you obviously don't practice it...

ScimitarXEdge
01-24-2011, 05:31 PM
I have a succint response to this, just wait a few days, little busy for involved replies. :)

Ahmad Walid
05-18-2011, 01:24 PM
I remember Dr.Zakir Naik once saying that the difference between Christianity and Islam is that to believe in Christianity you have to have faith but to believe in Islam you have to have faith and Islam proves itself by reason and science. Islam proves itself by scientific ayats ( I point this out because this is how we find facts in present-day university studies).

The problem with your post I am having is your title, "Islam is just a religion like any other religion," if that was true then the above statement would not be true, if the above statement is not true then why don't I join Christianity and drink beer on the couch? I mean why would you suffer under Islam when it is like any other religion and you could be having so much fun?

I like your topic and believe you need to look more into Islam, not saying that I am an expert but I have written papers on people who make claims like these and usually there is alot of misconceptions or they overlook important details.

sulimannuran
08-15-2011, 08:55 AM
Religion is a clear invention of human mind. Islam plagiarized a lot of so called "scientific miracles" from Aristotle, the Sumerians, the ancient Egyptians, ancient Greek medicine and philosophies which were also borrowed from translated works from China and India. Islam was not alone in this, others lead the same way. The Quran has nothing new or special that was not know at the time, everything that it mentions was known at the time by at least people who read Greek philosophy, etc, and could read and write. Quran is a book of its own time describing the beliefs of its time and the ones preceding it, nothing else. Aristotle was a thinker, a good one, who was right about certain things and wrong about others, but that is to his credit because he wanted to figure things out and after all he was a man of his own times with limited resources available. Aristotle deserves a lot of credit for at least thinking critically and wanting to figure things out. Human mind is always evolving and I think morals can be based on experiences not superstition. Al Razi was great at pointing and exposing the true nature of religion and prophecies.

کیش
08-15-2011, 11:32 AM
^^^^

Shut your uncle-Tom ass up. Those thinkers were most likely Prophets of Islam, if you knew anything about Islam you would know that. Since the Prophet (PBUN) mentioned that they were close to 124,000 prophets send to humanity.

graveyardofempires
08-15-2011, 11:37 AM
why the hell would you call yourself sulaiman than?

btw all those ancient things you mentioned also had religion of Islam somewhere around.

emkhan
10-02-2011, 04:34 PM
All abrahamic religions are the same thing, an egomaniac god and we, his slaves.

Astaghfirullah taubah okra.
Do you know what are you saying ?

emkhan
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
No I am typing in my sleep.

You proved you are a secular kafir.
That is enough for not arguing with you on religion or Pukhtunwali any more..

randolph85
10-02-2011, 06:50 PM
this is pretty much the worst thread in pf forum history.

Ahmad Walid
10-02-2011, 10:34 PM
Religion is a clear invention of human mind. Islam plagiarized a lot of so called "scientific miracles" from Aristotle, the Sumerians, the ancient Egyptians, ancient Greek medicine and philosophies which were also borrowed from translated works from China and India. Islam was not alone in this, others lead the same way. The Quran has nothing new or special that was not know at the time, everything that it mentions was known at the time by at least people who read Greek philosophy, etc, and could read and write. Quran is a book of its own time describing the beliefs of its time and the ones preceding it, nothing else. Aristotle was a thinker, a good one, who was right about certain things and wrong about others, but that is to his credit because he wanted to figure things out and after all he was a man of his own times with limited resources available. Aristotle deserves a lot of credit for at least thinking critically and wanting to figure things out. Human mind is always evolving and I think morals can be based on experiences not superstition. Al Razi was great at pointing and exposing the true nature of religion and prophecies.

"Quran is a book of its own time" -Yet millions of people (doctors, professors, teachers, lay people, etc..) still believe in this book. This book has withstood the test of time and yet you say it was a book of its own time. The scientific ayats of this book were spoken of by many scientists (just look around the pashtunforums videos you will see) non-muslim and muslim.

"Quran is a book of its own time describing the beliefs of its time and the ones preceding it." Yet, it tells about the future as well. Look around in Pashtun forum videos for the film on "Signs of the End Times" by Harun Yahya. Or if you have the time and ability read the Al-Quran. Look at the Hadiths and see what they reported about the future.

The biggest joke in your statement, is that you actually think that the Quran is just a mix or compilation of other ideas/books. What great university/intellectual community/people have you heard off during the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that had the ability to write something like the Quran. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) could neither read nor write. Perhaps you haven't heard what the Quran challenges you to do:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. (2:23) (Translation of Al Quran by Yusuf Ali).

Nobody can accept the challenge. If you want to know what happens when human beings try to write a religious book, then look no further to the Bible, Torah, vedas... Although some of the Bible and Torah is what the Prophets and God had told us but how come these books cannot stand next to the Al Quran. The answer is simple, "They have been changed by human beings." These books have been ripped apart for its content so much that nobody really cares about them anymore. Most Christians ignore the Old Testament, some will believe just parts of the New Testament. Is this the case with the Al Quran? Now think hard, can you think of any discrepancies or wrongs in the Al Quran?


You said yourself that Aristotle was wrong, why wasn't the Quran wrong in predicting 1400 years ago that the Universe was expanding. This was proven correct by Hubble (founder of the Hubble telescope). Did Quran just guess correct on this one? Quran mentions that everything in nature came from water? Nowadays in biology we commend this to the scientists of the 19th century, but Al Quran spoke of this 1200-1300 years earlier.

There are many more scientific ayats that I just don't have the time to write to you about.

You say Islam plagiarized a lot of scientific miracles from Aristotle. Lol, way to show you ignorance. Aristotle and your Egyptians (Ptolemy) believed in the geocentric model in which everything in the universe revolved around the earth. Maybe you are getting religions confused or you have fallen into the common trap that many ignorant people fall into, the trap of putting all religions in the same category. Muslims should know about this very well, personally, I know about this a lot in my University. Islam, Judaism, Christianity may share some beliefs but they are not alike or the same. There are fundamental differences!

Christianity did not have an answer (well actually they found an answer) for what was the center of our universe. The Church decided to go with what your friend Aristotle said, and I guess you know where that made the Church and Christianity end up.

Do you know that the Quran does not speak about the Geocentric model!

Alright, this is all I can write tonight. I am busy with school, haven't been on the forums for 4 months just got on tonight for you because I see everyday in my University people just like you living in ignorance. I feel sorry for people in my university because they live for this world and fail to learn or seek the truth (Islam). Hopefully, you won't be one of them.

I am sorry if I make any mistakes pertaining to the Quranic verses or said anything wrong pertaining to Islam.

Ahmad Walid
10-02-2011, 10:53 PM
^^^^

Shut your uncle-Tom ass up. Those thinkers were most likely Prophets of Islam, if you knew anything about Islam you would know that. Since the Prophet (PBUN) mentioned that they were close to 124,000 prophets send to humanity.


Brother, it is not correct to say this. We know of only the Prophets mentioned in the Quran and that is it. Yes it is true that Prophets were sent to every nation and tribe, but we don't who was sent for whom other then those mentioned in the Quran and Hadiths. If you say that this person might have been or was a prophet, people like in the post above will use it against you. Let me elaborate:

Aristotle believed in the geocentric model which was that everything revolved around the Earth, which has been clearly proven incorrect.

Now you and I both know that Prophets would not mislead people, they are sent to Earth to lead people on the straight path and tell them truths not lies(mistakes).

Aristotle was just a human being like you and me, he just had a lot more time then you and me to sit around (lol).

Further, another so called great thinker/philosopher was Nietzsche, who believed that God did not exist. He was also a strong alcoholic and lived a sad life.

So, in short we don't know of any Prophets specifically other than those mentioned in the Quran and Hadiths. We shouldn't place the title Prophet on just anybody we want.

Ahmad Walid
10-02-2011, 11:10 PM
All abrahamic religions are the same thing, an egomaniac god and we, his slaves.


Lol. I wanted to be sure that I knew what the word "egomaniac" meant, so here is the definition from wikipedia.


"Egomania is an obsessive preoccupation with one's self[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egomania#cite_note-Dictionary-0) and applies to someone who follows their own ungoverned impulses and is possessed by delusions of personal greatness and feels a lack of appreciation.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egomania#cite_note-1) Someone suffering from this extreme egocentric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentric) focus is an egomaniac.' (Wikipedia)

You mention all Abrahamic religions are like this. If this was true then why were people like the Prophets sent for us? Why did they tell us to believe in one God? Why did they suffer for us? Why did they cry for us?

You mention we are the slaves of God. You are right we should be because he created us. But where has God treated you like a slave? In fact, did he not show you mercy a number of times by you sending you the book (Al Quran), Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Does he not show you mercy when he warns you to believe in me and do what I say so that you don't end up in hell?

Egomania seems more characteristic of the Roman and Greek gods don't you think? Zeus did that to me, Ares killed that, Hades took the Earths daughter and that is why we have winter and fall and all that nonsense. These are egomaniac gods. They play with human beings.

Do you deny what God has given you?

Maybe you don't understand what God is.

We don't know what GOD looks like, is like, we know he exists. We also know from Al Quran that God is nothing like in this world. So, obviously he cannot be an egomaniac because that seems to be a human condition.

I know you will probably say next, prove God exists and other nonsense atheist comments. I would explain it to you but I am very busy right now. If you want to know what God is like read the verse from Al Quran below:

Say: He is Allah the One and Only; (1) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (2) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (3) And there is none like unto Him. (4)(Surah 112 Quran, translation by Yusuf Ali.)

Soldat_Amir
10-03-2011, 10:14 AM
You proved you are a secular kafir.
That is enough for not arguing with you on religion or Pukhtunwali any more..

Why do Pakis call others as Secular Kaffirs? does your fingers feel excited from saying such things as most of the time your holding your begging bowl to Kuffur countries to save you from drought, floods, instability etc.

Wasnt your holy highness Jinnah a secular pork and whisky drinking Ismaili Kaffir too?

How can you associate Pukhtunwali with Islam, Pukhtunwali as a system outdates Islam by years, even centuries.

Anyway, I dont want to prolong this diccussion and hurt peoples feelings.

In regards to the topic

Islam,Judaism, Christianity and Greek Mythology have many things in common. I dont want to list them because some people may complain or get upset.

I agree, Islam is a Ambrahmic religion, originates from the same place Christianity and Judaism came into being.

Alchemist
10-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Just to clarify something for those who like to talk on that which they know very little.

At the time of Ibrahim (alihi salam) all of humanity was engrossed into polytheism. He single handedly reintroduced monotheism and in his day what he preached was revolutionary. Monotheism has had a profound impact on the psychology and history of humanity. Its implications and influence would take up the space of books upon books far more than this petty forum can handle as a discourse.

This is the main reason why Ibrahim (alihi salam) has had such a high status with Allah and why his prayers were answered... as he had prayed that his ummah would flourish across the earth and that prophets would arise from his lineage to guide the people aright. For some of you know-little atheists to repeatedly assert this well known and accepted fact is to show how ignorant you are.
That one man and his progeny was able to revolutionize the world to such an extent, without throwing a single blow, over thousands of years should indicate to you how profound monotheism is. When you know almost nothing of the mythologies of polytheists but constantly try to define your morality by contrasting against scripture. If any of you had any sense of right then you would ascribe to a book of your own...but you have none. Just some cliched responses and half baked arguments that you don't even understand your self.


Rather what I am astonished by is the fact that you hate and detest to serve your Lord and Maker who has not compelled you to do so, but willfully and obediantly serve a system that oppresses you and makes a slave of you mentally and physically....the only escape for which you have is here. Pathetic.

emkhan
10-03-2011, 02:05 PM
Why do Pakis call others as Secular Kaffirs? does your fingers feel excited from saying such things as most of the time your holding your begging bowl to Kuffur countries to save you from drought, floods, instability etc.

Wasnt your holy highness Jinnah a secular pork and whisky drinking Ismaili Kaffir too?

How can you associate Pukhtunwali with Islam, Pukhtunwali as a system outdates Islam by years, even centuries.

Anyway, I dont want to prolong this diccussion and hurt peoples feelings.

In regards to the topic

Islam,Judaism, Christianity and Greek Mythology have many things in common. I dont want to list them because some people may complain or get upset.

I agree, Islam is a Ambrahmic religion, originates from the same place Christianity and Judaism came into being.

We are not discussing nationalities or personalities here...
There was no Christianity or Judaism religion on this earth lol.
It was actually Islam from Adam a.s to the final prophet Muhammad pbuh.

emkhan
10-03-2011, 04:24 PM
Thats what I am doing.

emkhan
10-03-2011, 04:34 PM
^ we are not jews and christians

There are many here whose religion is Secularism (the religion of dajjaal). Are you one of them ?

emkhan
10-03-2011, 04:37 PM
Ahan... how is your master ?

emkhan
10-03-2011, 04:43 PM
To get closer to your master, please contact toramana and co.
They have special position in his darbaar.
toramana and co will do anything for his master even kill and get killed.

retro
10-03-2011, 06:39 PM
We are not discussing nationalities or personalities here...
There was no Christianity or Judaism religion on this earth lol.
It was actually Islam from Adam a.s to the final prophet Muhammad pbuh.

You have to be stupid to be a Muhammadan. The direction of prayer (Qibla) was not even fixed towards Mecca until the 8th century. Yet Muslims believe that the Kaaba (cube) was built as a house of worship by Abraham and Ishmael and that the foundation of the Kaaba built by Adam. :rofl:

http://blogs.theage.com.au/schembri/persepolis.gif

Toramana
10-03-2011, 06:44 PM
You have to be stupid to be a Muhammadan. The direction of prayer (Qibla) was not even fixed towards Mecca until the 8th century. Yet Muslims believe that the Kaaba (cube) was built as a house of worship by Abraham and Ishmael and that the foundation of the Kaaba built by Adam. :rofl:

http://blogs.theage.com.au/schembri/persepolis.gif

You cannot argue with a nut...He seems to be too deep in hoor-fantasy mode to think about these deep things as his other half might be in ghilman-fantasy (young young boys :smile1:) mode.

TheLady
10-03-2011, 06:44 PM
Nigga, you is confused in the head, my nigga!

ScimitarXEdge
10-03-2011, 07:13 PM
You have to be stupid to be a Muhammadan. The direction of prayer (Qibla) was not even fixed towards Mecca until the 8th century. Yet Muslims believe that the Kaaba (cube) was built as a house of worship by Abraham and Ishmael and that the foundation of the Kaaba built by Adam. :rofl:



Even though that's a gross misportrayal of Islam's viewpoints

This is coming from a self professed Christian ....the religion which takes the crown for absurd beliefs.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OZSjvlxnP2M/TbRijHove7I/AAAAAAAAFG0/YGdcmOeuKHM/s1600/zombie-jesus.jpg



some how this makes sense to you ...but the idea that the Ka'aba was the original house of Abraham which became restored as the direction for prayer is absurd?

I guess you must think the Earth has four corners and is 6000 years old too right?

Alchemist
10-03-2011, 08:51 PM
Ok...gotta love how this douchebag manages to win a thank you from an atheist by ridiculing a part of the same narrative of his own religion. (Yes hawa was made from the flesh of Adam and they ate from the forbidden tree)

retro
10-04-2011, 12:34 AM
Even though that's a gross misportrayal of Islam's viewpoints

This is coming from a self professed Christian ....the religion which takes the crown for absurd beliefs.
...

some how this makes sense to you ...but the idea that the Ka'aba was the original house of Abraham which became restored as the direction for prayer is absurd?


I agree with you the Christian religion is very much estranged from the monolithic, Anarcho-primitivism of Judaism and Islam. :tongue:

Abraham as we know was the first patriarch of Israel and his family where originally from Mesopotamia. Yet Muhammad is places him and his son Ishmael completely out of historical context, several hundred miles away, at a Pagan temple in Arabian backwater like Mecca.

The Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) states that Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham), together with Ishmael (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael), raised the foundations of the holy house.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-17) God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God) had shown Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham) the exact site, very near to the Well of Zamzam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Zamzam), where Abraham and Ishmael began work on the Kaaba's construction or, according to tradition, reconstruction as Muslims generally believe that Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam) had made it first and that it had been rebuilt by Noah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah) after the Deluge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark).[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-18) After Abraham had built the Kaaba, an angel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel) brought to him the Black Stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone), a celestial stone that, according to tradition, had fallen from Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven) on the nearby hill Abu Qubays.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-ReferenceA-19) According to a saying attributed to Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), the Black Stone had "descended from Paradise whiter than milk but the sins of the sons of Adam had made it black".[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-20)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba#cite_note-20)
Kaaba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba)

MohannaD
10-04-2011, 04:37 AM
I request the admins to DELETE this thread , How can you allow such stuff to be said about ALLAH and ISLAM on this site ????

tor_khan
10-04-2011, 09:06 AM
When a debate becomes a farcical, it is clear that a thread has run its course. There is manner in which the issues raised in this thread can be debated. Let's be reminded of the various House Rules (http://www.pashtunforums.com/support-announcements-13/forum-conduct-3301/). For now, this thread is closed.