View Full Version : christianity...?


coconut_banana
11-27-2011, 12:04 PM
al-salaam-o-alaikum,


inspired by the other thread, i want to ask questions about christianity here because i cant find answrs on google.

i have never really understood what it is exactly that christians believe in.

do they worship jesus, allah or "holy spirit" or all three of them?
i have read somewhere that they believe all 3 of them = god, so arent they polytheists?

also, how can they believe jesus was son of god and god at the same time?
and also, how can god die? who is holy spirit?

its too confusing for me.

can intelligent people like alchemist, scimitar, afghanistan2010 or others who know about christianity explain please?

Afghanistan2010
11-27-2011, 12:17 PM
there are numerous groups among the christians,
it depends on with whom you talk:

catholic christians believe in trinity God is in three parts (God,the holy spirit and Jesus (pubh),and he is the saviour of the wolrd , born by mary , died and wake up after three days and many other things.

then there are the Gospels , they are devision which came to light after Martin Luther questioned certain things in the Christianity , like paying to save yourself from Hell and translated the Bible into German and so on , there are the 100 Thesis or more from Martin Luther,which questions the leadership of the pope that is also a point they don't go to the church every Sunday and they don't believe in pope.

then there are those in the States these Baptists they are more kind of radicals similar to the first one.

then there are those jehova witnessess , they don't believe in trinity but only by the word of the bible and they say that armageddon will happen then they will be only one to be saved and on earth it will be a paradise for them blah blah.

and there are many many many many more groups...but these are the main


the funny thing and its the best to defeat in seconds Christians don't care about which group but it defeats every Christian group

by Ibn Qayyim (rahimahullah)


Ibn Qayyim - Amazing poetry refuting christianity - O CHRIST WORSHIPPERS !! we want an answer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xftYo8Ng61Y)

just watch it you have everything

Insaaf_انصاف
11-27-2011, 12:20 PM
there are numerous groups among the christians,
it depends on with whom you talk:

catholic christians believe in trinity God is in three parts (God,the holy spirit and Jesus (pubh),and he is the saviour of the wolrd , born by mary , died and wake up after three days and many other things.

then there are the Gospels , they are devision which came to light after Martin Luther questioned certain things in the Christianity , like paying to save yourself from Hell and translated the Bible into German and so on , there are the 100 Thesis or more from Martin Luther,which questions the leadership of the pope that is also a point they don't go to the church every Sunday and hey don't believe in pope.

then there are those in the States these Baptists they are more kind of radicals similar to the first one.



there are those jehova witnessess , they don't believe in trinity but only by the word of the bible and they say that armageddon will happen then they will be only one to be saved and on earth it will be a paradise for them blah blah.

and there are many many many many more groups...but these are the main


the funny thing and its the best to defeat in seconds Christians don't care about which group but it defeats every Christian gro

by Ibn Qayyim (rahimahullah)


Ibn Qayyim - Amazing poetry refuting christianity - O CHRIST WORSHIPPERS !! we want an answer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xftYo8Ng61Y)[/URL]

just watch it you have everything

Why " Pbuh " for Jesus ?

Afghanistan2010
11-27-2011, 12:33 PM
Because Jesus is the Messenger of Allah , Peace and blessing of Allah be upon him


Allah says in Suratul Baqarah 185 :

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."



And in the authentic Ahadith it is clearly stated :




Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."




And


“And [beware the Day] when God will say, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as gods besides God?...’” (Quran 5:116)

Jesus will respond:


“He will say, ‘Limitless are You in Your glory! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Verily, it is You alone who fully knows all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being’s perception. I said not to them except what you commanded me – to worship God, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You alone had been their keeper:’ for You are witness unto everything. If You should punish them – indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.” (Quran 5:116-118)

coconut_banana
11-27-2011, 12:36 PM
there are numerous groups among the christians,
it depends on with whom you talk:

catholic christians believe in trinity God is in three parts (God,the holy spirit and Jesus (pubh),and he is the saviour of the wolrd , born by mary , died and wake up after three days and many other things.

then there are the Gospels , they are devision which came to light after Martin Luther questioned certain things in the Christianity , like paying to save yourself from Hell and translated the Bible into German and so on , there are the 100 Thesis or more from Martin Luther,which questions the leadership of the pope that is also a point they don't go to the church every Sunday and they don't believe in pope.

then there are those in the States these Baptists they are more kind of radicals similar to the first one.

then there are those jehova witnessess , they don't believe in trinity but only by the word of the bible and they say that armageddon will happen then they will be only one to be saved and on earth it will be a paradise for them blah blah.

and there are many many many many more groups...but these are the main


the funny thing and its the best to defeat in seconds Christians don't care about which group but it defeats every Christian group

by Ibn Qayyim (rahimahullah)


Ibn Qayyim - Amazing poetry refuting christianity - O CHRIST WORSHIPPERS !! we want an answer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xftYo8Ng61Y)[/URL]

just watch it you have everything


what about mormons?

Islam believes that God is essentially and uniquely one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid), while Mormons accept the Christian division of the Godhead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_(Mormonism)) into Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father), Son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Son) and Holy Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Ghost), though rejecting the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity).
Mormonism believes that God the Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father) has a body of flesh and bones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology), together with a wife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife), referred to as "Heavenly Mother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother)" by some Latter-day Saints (although this view is not explicitly implied in scripture). Islam emphatically rejects these notions.
Mormons believe that Jesus Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ) is the Son of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God); he is referred to as "a God" in their religion. Islam rejects this idea, believing that Jesus was a mortal being chosen to be a Prophet of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam), no difference from Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses), Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham), Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), or other prophets of God throughout time, except being raised to heaven, like Elijah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah).
Mormonism believes in the existence of multiple "gods", and refers to "the Gods" in one of its canonical scriptures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Works), the Book of Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham). Islam emphatically rejects this notion, which it calls "Shirk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam))", the gravest of sins in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Islam#cite_note-15)
Mormonism believes that its adherents may become "gods" in the next life, through following its teachings and receiving certain necessary ordinances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_(Latter_Day_Saints)). Islam rejects this notion entirely.



and that video has a good point about why they worship the cross if jesus died on it.

Afghanistan2010
11-27-2011, 12:43 PM
what about mormons?

Islam believes that God is essentially and uniquely one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid), while Mormons accept the Christian division of the Godhead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_(Mormonism)) into Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father), Son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Son) and Holy Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Ghost), though rejecting the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity).
Mormonism believes that God the Father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father) has a body of flesh and bones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology), together with a wife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife), referred to as "Heavenly Mother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Mother)" by some Latter-day Saints (although this view is not explicitly implied in scripture). Islam emphatically rejects these notions.
Mormons believe that Jesus Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ) is the Son of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God); he is referred to as "a God" in their religion. Islam rejects this idea, believing that Jesus was a mortal being chosen to be a Prophet of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam), no difference from Moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses), Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham), Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), or other prophets of God throughout time, except being raised to heaven, like Elijah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah).
Mormonism believes in the existence of multiple "gods", and refers to "the Gods" in one of its canonical scriptures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Works), the Book of Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham). Islam emphatically rejects this notion, which it calls "Shirk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam))", the gravest of sins in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Islam#cite_note-15)
Mormonism believes that its adherents may become "gods" in the next life, through following its teachings and receiving certain necessary ordinances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_(Latter_Day_Saints)). Islam rejects this notion entirely.



and that video has a good point about why they worship the cross if jesus died on it.

Exacly that was refuted about 1400 years agon in Quran by Allah himself verily he even mentioned it by the most high....

read yourself:

[/URL] (http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)
(http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)Surah Muminun 23:91: (http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)
"No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!" (http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)
(http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)

(http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)
(http://islamawakened.org/quran/21/22/default.htm)Surah Anbiya 21:22: (http://islamawakened.org/quran/21/22/default.htm)
"If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!"
(http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)
(http://islamawakened.org/quran/21/22/default.htm)


[url]http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com/2/Why_Not_More_Than_1_God.html (http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com/2/Why_Not_More_Than_1_God.html)
(http://islamawakened.org/quran/23/91/default.htm)

Elsii
11-28-2011, 01:41 AM
al-salaam-o-alaikum,


inspired by the other thread, i want to ask questions about christianity here because i cant find answrs on google.

i have never really understood what it is exactly that christians believe in.

do they worship jesus, allah or "holy spirit" or all three of them?
i have read somewhere that they believe all 3 of them = god, so arent they polytheists?

also, how can they believe jesus was son of god and god at the same time?
and also, how can god die? who is holy spirit?

its too confusing for me.

can intelligent people like alchemist, scimitar, afghanistan2010 or others who know about christianity explain please?


Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because he was born by a miracle from Maryam, so he has no earthly father, so his father is God, because all life comes from Him.

They believe the Word of God worked through him to fulfill the prophecies as the Messiah, and that he is given all authority on heaven and earth by God and will sit at the right hand of the throne of God. Also since God's word works through him, he will judge the world under the will of God.

Since man was created 'in the image of God', they believe that God has both flesh and the holy spirit. Since Genesis describes God 'walking' in the Garden of Eden, he must have a flesh form. But that cannot exist without a spirit.

They see Jesus as the promised Messiah who fulfilled the scriptures and was crucified, since he is at the right hand of God and will give judgement, all life will go through him. Most Christian's don't see them as '3 in 1', but '3 in agreement with each other'

Zirey
03-30-2012, 11:34 PM
There are a lot of misconceptions about the Christian faith because it is so vast. If I may I would like to address a few of the points raised above.

In accordance with the Holy Scriptures, Christians are indeed monotheists who believe that there is one God. This one God has revealed Himself as the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit, and yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct. There are not three parts of God, but there are three Persons (being capable of a distinct personal relationship) in the Godhead. Since the infinite God is greater than our finite human minds, it should be no surprise that we find this teaching to be full of mystery. And yet it has been revealed by God Himself, so we humbly affirm it.

How can God die? Jesus was both God and man. His divine nature remained immortal but in his human nature He died on the cross, then rose again from the dead, just as He had foretold and just as more than 500 eyewitnesses saw.

It is true that Protestant Christians do not acknowledge the pope's authority, but many Protestants do believe in going to church every Sunday, which is the day of the Lord's resurrection.

Afghanistan2010
03-31-2012, 05:46 AM
Why one has to die to be forgiven...
so if jesus (pbuh) died that we were forgiven,than Adolf hitler,mao were forgiven ?
you can go and carry out some crusads no problem jesus (pbuh) has already forgiven us by sacrificing himself...oh or has someone else have to sacrifice himself to be forgiven again ? and every time one does sins ?.

Further,if the people related to christianity would really wanted to know their religion they should read the bible,and when they have read it they will witness the 50 000 errors which are obviouse.

And those crimes mentioned in the bible,like incest and,how can one stil believe in it ?.

After that those contradictions which were mentioned above as errors are a valid reason to give up the bible,so what do you have else in christianity to rely on,the church ? you have to pay tax,what do you get heaven ? by paying your place in heaven ?.

Also what about those scriptures people find every thirty year why does the vatican not publish them ?,like the Codex Sinaiticus ? are there things which are contrary to that what they preach today...has jesus (pbuh) ever said im God ? .

If Jesus (peace and blessing be upon him) is God?
And God knows everything ? yes !
Did Jesus (pbuh) know and tell us when the Judgement day is ?
NO ?!
What , you were saying Jesus (pbuh) is God and God Almighty knows everything,the hidden and the obvious

Zirey
03-31-2012, 04:35 PM
Zma uruno,
if I answer your questions satisfactorily, what will you do? Will you receive baptism? If you sincerely want to know this Jesus who died and rose again, this Jesus who forgives sin and gives joy and eternal life and peace with God, I will gladly answer your questions to the best of my ability.

RevolutionThroughReason
03-31-2012, 04:59 PM
lol zma urono

this guy lays it on thick

Breshna
03-31-2012, 10:52 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKXKKyyXG4g



The Christian Minister...who

converted...to Islam.

He explains...Christianity.

Karpo
03-31-2012, 11:08 PM
Todays Christianity is a 'faith' that is drawn from German pagan/Roman pagan traditions (Santa Claus, Easter for example).

They decided to make Prophet Isa (pbuh) into God by a vote at the Council of Nicae in 325.

So here you have it for you to read. If your not happy with the sources, you can read more up on your fairy tale of a 'religion' from Western sources that you trust.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://www.wannabe-anthropologist.com/wba_writing_nicea.pdf

http://islamtomorrow.com/bible/NicaeaCouncil325.htm

Nicaea Council of 325 A.D.
What Was It All About? - How Did It Change Christianity?
Read what the Catholic Church Says About Itself

Many people today, even Catholics, do not know the Holy Roman Catholic Church was already in business several hundred years BEFORE Jesus, peace be upon him, was even born. It was a pagan church established by the Roman government in an effort to control the subjects of Rome by having them all participate at least to some extent, along with other Roman citizens in some kind of common worship practices and beliefs.
The year was 325 A.D. according to the Roman calendar. A council was convened by order of Constantine, the Roman emperor. He had been a leader in the cult known as Sol Invictus (Invincible Sun) and now wanted to unite the Christian sects in the empire under his existing church; the Universal Church of Rome. Many changes to the religion of Christianity were about to take place at that council, including:



Formulation for wording concerning the Trinity based on Anthanias (description of the formulation is mentioned below)

Changing Verses of Bible

Eliminating certain verses and books from the Bible

Declaring Arian's "unitarian" (http://islamtomorrow.com/bible/Arianism_vs_council_nicaea.htm)(belief in the Unity of God) as heresy

Changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday

Changing the date of Jesus' birthday to December 25th

Introduction of Easter (pagan worship called "Feast of Ishtar")

Church of Roman "officially" became the "Universal Church of the Holy Roman Empire" (the word 'Catholic' means 'universal'




The Roman Catholic Church took on a new face.




What follows is a quote from the Roman Catholic Church. It is their explanation behind the many changes occurring during the Nicaea Council.
"Arian belief in One God - meant Jesus was not God or a part of God. Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church could not accept this.
Easter needed to be added as well.
[Begin Quote]
Council of Nicaea, First Ecumenical Council - 325 A.D. (Christian Era)
The Nicene Council is considered by all as the first Ecumenical Council of the Church (Roman Catholic Church). It was occasioned by the Arian heresy which in effect denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. The major product of this council was the Creed, the "Nicene Creed"; but it also addressed the date of Easter, and the place of the Patriarch of Alexandria.

"Heresy" was the term now being used to describe what many fomer priests and bishops had been teaching.
"God is One, without partners" seems to be the theme throughout the Old Testament. But now suddenly when the pagan Romans are about to make Christianity the offical church of the Holy Empire, the need to rethink the concept of God arises.
A God-Man and Man-God seem to fit right in with the "former pagan" concept of their 'gods on earth.'
Could this explain the source for "Trinity?"
"Trinity" does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament.
Even the phrase, "And these two are one" (First Epistle of John, Chapter 5, verse 7) is fabricated and based on the verse prior to it.
[see: Revised Standard Version of the Bible, 1952 and History of Translations of Bible to the English Language, F. F. Bruce)

Occasion for the Council
The Arian heresy had infected parts of the Church all the way from Alexandria through Palestine, Syria, Asia minor to Greece. It was bad enough that it viciated the very heart of Christian doctrine from within, but there was also danger that it would weaken the Empire itself, and so Constantine, who was trying hard to consolidate the Empire, took an active part in trying to solve the matter. He called for a council of bishops of the Church. At first it appeared that he had in mind only the Eastern bishops since he first designated Ancyra in Galatia (Ankara in Turkey) as a place for the bishops to assemble. Arianism had particularly divided the Church there. But this would make it difficult for himself to attend, and besides it might be good for other bishops to attend, those not necessarily involved in the controversy. Hence Nicaea in Bithynia was finally selected; it was close to the sea making it easier for more bishops to attend, he had there a large palace compound, both to house the bishops and with a great hall in which they could assemble, and he could keep an eye on them from nearby Nicomedia.
Constantine himself was strongly influenced by certain Arian bishops, particularly by Bishop Eusebius of the capitol city of Nicomedia, and if he did not actually have Arian leanings himself, he had been informed by them that a council of the Church would show that the teaching of Arius was correct. It would be to Constantine's credit that when the bishops in council voted the opposite way, condemned Arianism and overwhelmingly affirmed the traditional doctrine, that he got behind them 100% and promulgated their decisions.
The Council Called
He announced the council (a command-performance for important bishops) by the imperial post, heretofore reserved for civil administration and urgent military matters. Of course the bishops wanted to settle matters too; the heresy and schism were tearing the Church apart, but Constantine's calling for a general council and the manner in which the council was conducted shows us to what great extent there was almost a union between church and state. Constantine put the imperial transportation system at the disposal of the bishops. This meant they could travel on his boats free, that they could go by cart or wagon, horse, whatever means the Empire had to offer, all under the protection of the Roman army (travel was not only difficult, but brigands made it dangerous). Constantine housed the bishops, fed them and provided his own palace as a place to meet.
The Council Assembled 300 bishops were present (Ambrose of Milan and Hilary of Poitier report 318, but this may be a symbolic number representing the 318 servants of Abraham, Gen 14:14) most of them from the East. Not a few of the bishops attending were maimed or their predecessors had been killed by the very soldiery which now guarded them; they winced as they paraded into the council chamber, the soldiers with their swords and shining armor now forming an honor guard on either side of their procession. There is no doubt but what the bishops had every freedom of discussion and vote (at this council at least) because that was the rule of the Roman senate after which a council is patterned, and yet to these bishops at least so shortly out of persecution, the soldiers who stood guard inside the chamber, both to assure good order and prevent any intrusion from outside, must have been a symbol of imperial power and influence, formerly unleashed against them.
Constantine himself opened the council with an impassioned plea for unity and peace, and his good friend Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea (a suspected Arian or at least an Arian sympathizer) gave the opening address. According to the pattern of the Roman senate the council was actually presided over by another good friend of Constantine, Hosius, bishop of Cordoba, Spain, who had presided over a local council in Elvia, Spain, some 30 years before. Hosius was assisted by the delegates from Pope Sylvester, the simple priests, Vitus and Vicentius, all in true senatorial style. The history at the time does not explain why the delegates of the Bishop of Rome held such a prominent place in the Council. Catholics like to stress that it was because the pope has some position of authority or leadership over the other bishops. Others maintain it was because Rome was the seat of the civil government (but it had just been moved from there to Constantinople). Anyway this pattern would be followed at many succeeding councils.
The Nicene Creed
The big thing which happened was the Nicene Creed, but in this way:
Most held out at first for a Scriptural language and expression to make clear against the Arians what the catholic doctrine had been, but as the discussions progressed it became evident that there was no Scriptural vocabulary which would correctly express the orthodox teaching. They lighted on a philosophical term, homoosios (same substance as) to express what they meant and what had always been the catholic teaching, but there was still needed a formula to summarize and convey their meaning. Of all bishops, Eusebius of Caesarea, who had been clobbered by the synod at Antioch the year before, produced a creed he used in his church. As far as it went, it was acceptable to the rest of the bishops, but they made additions in order to make it very clear that Arius' position was not what they espoused. This creed would be further amended by the First Council of Constantinople, and hence is technically known as the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed", but maybe it should be known as the Caesarean-Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
Here it is beneficial to explain something councils do, almost as a byproduct. Primarily a council's purpose, at least a dogmatic council, is to proclaim with unmistakable clarity a doctrine already a part of the teaching of the Church. But at Nicaea there were not a few bishops, well-intentioned and open to the Spirit, who actually would have been hard pressed themselves to give a clear explanation of the relationship of the Son to the Father. But because they had humility and good will they learned from the discussions of the Council, at the same time that they were a part of the council process. Hence a council can also teach bishops. All of the bishops present signed the Creed, except two, Secundus of Ptolemais and Theonas of Marmarica. Constantine banished them along with Arius (whom he later recalled).
Date of Easter
Among other things they also settled (they thought) was the date of Easter. While most celebrated Easter on a Sunday to commemorate the resurrection, there were a few who celebrated on weekdays (even Good Friday) according to a Jewish reckoning (the Quartodeciman controversy addressed by Pope Victor, 189-198), and those who did observe Sunday did not all observe on the same Sunday. Constantine wanted, as did most bishops, a universal observance. To this very day it is disputed what the council fathers meant by their decision, and Easter is still observed variously, but the points of their decree supposed by most are: 1) Easter should be celebrated on the same day by all (a point all agree was contained in the decree); 2) Jewish custom was not the criterion to be followed (a point which is not cited by the Greeks, but strongly mentioned both in the writings which preceded the council and in Eusebius' report of it); and 3) that the practice of Rome and Alexandria (then West and Egypt) should remain in force, namely the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox (the Creeks do not cite the first half of this point, only the second). But even Alexandria and Rome did not agree for a long time, due to calculations (miscalculations) as to the date of the vernal equinox. Rome celebrated the equinox on March 18, and Alexandria on March 23. Since this is something scientific, that is, half way between the shortest and the longest day of the year, it could be and was eventually solved by the devising of various cycles, so that a fixed day in the lunar calendar (14th of Nisan) would occur according to a predetermined pattern in the Julian calendar. Today Greeks and other Orthodox maintain that the Roman date of Easter is wrong, saying that the Nicene Council stipulated that the Resurrection must always be celebrated after the Jewish Passover.
Now it must be remembered that only incomplete records of canons and decrees exist from the Council at Nicaea. What we actually have is the Creed, the disciplinary action against the Arians, 20 disciplinary canons, a letter to the Alexandrian church, and a list of the bishops present (a list which varies from language to language).
The rest of the canons (if authentic at all) have been garnered from other sources, including Arabic writings. In thus citing Nicea about Easter coming after the Jewish Passover, the Greeks must have sources which are not commonly known, and stronger sources than the west is aware. For example, Eusebius of Caesarea writing just after the Council quotes from the letter of Emperor Constantine to all who were not present at the Council,
". . .relative to the sacred festival of Easter. . . it was declared to be particularly unworthy for this holiest of all festivals to follow the custom of the Jews. We ought not therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews. We desire to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews for it is surely shameful for us to hear the Jews boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. In their blindness, they frequently celebrate two Passovers in the same year. . . How then could we follow these Jews. . . for to celebrate the Passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible ."
Alexandrian Patriarchate
Another important question (Canon 6) the council took up was the position of the ancient see of Alexandria because there were problems of jurisdiction down there due to the Melitian schism. The Council's purpose was to bring order to the Church in Alexandria, but in so doing they gave evidence to something which was developing in the Church, namely, listing the metropolitan centers of Christianity and putting them in order of their importance. Not a few have seen this as a sort of ambitious clamoring on the part of some sees to "lord it over" less important places. Perhaps there was some of this (later there certainly was), but it would seem that the intention of Nicaea was merely to establish order and place responsibility of keeping order and orthodoxy on strong and capable centers of Christian teaching. In brief, the council stated that Alexandria had under its jurisdiction the whole of Egypt, Libya, and Pentopolis. But in solving this problem with regard to Alexandria, almost as a byproduct and as if it went without saying, they mentioned that Alexandria was second only to Rome which had similar rights in the West. It mentions Antioch being in the third place but does not define its territory.
They remind all, however (Canon 7) of the importance of the See of Jerusalem but still left it under the jurisdiction of Caesarea. (Remember Jerusalem had been destroyed in the year 70 by Titus and it took a while for Christians there to make a come-back.) Of course there was no Constantinople yet. We speak nowadays of the "Patriarchates" of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, as being established or recognized by the Council of Nicaea, but it is important to stress that at this juncture Nicaea doesn't use this term at all. It does use the term "Metropolitan", but mostly it just refers to the "Bishop of Alexandria", or the "Bishop of Rome" etc. (Canon VI). Of the remaining canons, all interesting, none really apply to the question of East-West relations or the church-state problem we are addressing. Constantine himself (who apparently had attended many sessions, though neither he nor the Roman presidents voted) brought the council to a close with another talk on unity but in it he calls himself a "fellow bishop", showing how closely he associated himself with the work of the Church.
[end quote]

faye
03-31-2012, 11:10 PM
it seems to me that religious people all think theirs is the true and highest of religions. therefore they find ways to belittle and criticise other religions.
i never studied christianity or was indoctrinated by it, within my family, but i always thought that christians consider god to be the creator and the one to forgive peoples sins.

roadrunner
03-31-2012, 11:28 PM
let me rescue you again dumbos.

what you're referring to is the trinity. Christians don't believe in 3 Gods but 1 God that is represented in 3 different ways. The Trinity.

Afghanistan2010
04-01-2012, 03:00 PM
it seems to me that religious people all think theirs is the true and highest of religions. therefore they find ways to belittle and criticise other religions.
i never studied christianity or was indoctrinated by it, within my family, but i always thought that christians consider god to be the creator and the one to forgive peoples sins.

We can have human discussion no problem.

Afghanistan2010
04-01-2012, 03:04 PM
Zma uruno,
if I answer your questions satisfactorily, what will you do? Will you receive baptism? If you sincerely want to know this Jesus who died and rose again, this Jesus who forgives sin and gives joy and eternal life and peace with God, I will gladly answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Listen my friend,
we do not need to come up with anything but you,christianity refutes itself and contradict itself in a way that corrupts the whole religion and belief.

but we love Jesus (pbuh) no matter we do not worship him but we follow his teachings to what he said to us,don't eat pig meat,pray to God as he prayed prostraying on the ground,restraining from adultery.

faye
04-01-2012, 03:06 PM
compassion? forgivenes?

Afghanistan2010
04-01-2012, 03:15 PM
Aswell forgiveness,but jesus (pbuh) said in Bible : Those who do not believe in me bring them before me and slay them.

Stone the Adulters.
Shave the head of the women,who does not cover their hair.

faye
04-01-2012, 03:17 PM
2010, you love those grusome parts, don't you?
that's why i don't need religion. too much negativity.

Afghanistan2010
04-01-2012, 03:31 PM
2010, you love those grusome parts, don't you?
that's why i don't need religion. too much negativity.

I mention that which is obvious,many might not mention it to the people, im not one who hides one side from the people,im direct.

Is it a negativity to place borders for the people ? that you not ruin yourself and the society you live in.

People without borders (morality) will jeopardize the society.


Nations are nothing but morals:
If their moral disappear, they disappear.
Hafiz Ibrahim (poet)
(Read on pg 5, Abu Bakr Muhammad b. al-Husayn al-Ajurri, The Character of the Bearers and People of the Quran. Al-Quran Society. London: 2002.)

haviZsultan
04-01-2012, 04:44 PM
more questions to come:Geek:
I went through this:

According to scriptures there is one God and jesus is not God.
where int he scriptures does Jesus say he is God and worship him.
Matter of fact he worships God himself and drops down on his knees and prays.
from christian friends i was having a discussion about this and they couldnt defend any of these.
for example if God dies for 3 days than who runs the world?
how can jesus be human and God?offcourse they said humanity of God,i had to laugh about that.
they did tell me that the world was darker int hose three days which affirms that this is from the roman religion in which the SUN dies for 3 days and than the new SUN is born.

Was just reading through this. You have christian friends? Didn't you try to convert them to Islam yet? I thought thats the way you understand religion, that you have to convert these people... by the sword if necessary.

Zirey
04-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Faye,
you seem not far from the kingdom of God. Compassion, forgiveness, and the joy of eternal life are the goal of the Lord's dealings with us. God became incarnate in Jesus so that we might see and know this abundant love and goodness of God.

Brothers,
What is your interest in this line of questioning? For now I will give the benefit of the doubt that you ask sincerely. Your questions are in quotation marks, followed by a brief reply. I have been brief on purpose to keep things more manageable. One has only so much time. Perhaps we will have an opportunity later for elaboration.

"According to scriptures there is one God and jesus is not God."
Half right. According to the Holy Scriptures, there is one God and also Jesus is that God.

"Where in the Scriptures does Jesus say He is God and to worship Him?"
There are many places in the Holy Scriptures that teach Jesus's Divinity and Lordship. For example, from John chapter 5: "[Jesus] called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
As to worship specifically, the Lord Jesus receives worship on many occasions. For example, Matthew chapter 2: "They saw the child with Mary His mother, and they fell down and worshiped Him."

"If God dies for 3 days then who runs the world?"
Christians believe that God is omnipotent and can do all that He wills to do. The Lord Jesus remained God when His human nature suffered and died on the cross. He is fully able to run the universe even while sacrificing Himself for mankind. Truly God is great!

"how can jesus be human and God?"
Again, God is omnipotent. God was fully able to take on a human nature, just as the Jewish prophets had foretold repeatedly and just as the eyewitnesses of His resurrection affirmed.

"they did tell me that the world was darker in those three days which affirms that this is from the roman religion in which the SUN dies for 3 days and than the new SUN is born."
According to the Bible, the sky was dark for a few hours while Jesus hung on the cross, but there is nothing in the crucifixion accounts about darkness for 3 days or Roman myths.

Catya Sher
04-02-2012, 05:48 PM
I guess I missed out on introduction. Who is Zirey?
A Pashtun Christian? Impossible !
An Arab Christian ?

N.B. about Mormons.
If this creep Romney gets elected -- and there are plenty of indications
that the Zionists want him out of all the Republican candidates --
suddenly the world will be anxiously studying what Mormons and believe.

So it IS a propos to bone up on their truly bizarre beliefs.
Good thing is they by custom don't drink alcohol or coffee.
Prohibition against TEA, however, is BEYOND me ! It's one of the
best and healthiest of foods.

The point is that they have some really strange beliefs.

Further to [wast it Afgh2010's ?] point about believing that they
will become 'gods' -
specifically, they believe, as they are instructed by their FAKE
"bishops" which are simply laypeople who take on the responsibility
of spiritually guiding members of their "ward" - it's called.
A strange name, does not sound religious at all, like a Church does
Anyway, they go to these "bishops" to take a blessing and be "prayer over"
like Protestants sometimes do, for healings or whatever.

So the Mormons are told that - get a load of THIS -
EACH ONE of their number will become the "god" of HIS or HER OWN
PLANET !!

Then, too, they believe that members of their family who died and
were never "baptised" into their Mormon faith can be
"baptised" in a ceremony conducted by mortals here on earth.

It's so bizarre. They have these books that were supposedly brought
by an "angll" called Moroni - probably a devil or something in disguise -
and they are so wacky.

As an Iranian emigrant college student said to me, "WHO could beleive THAT??"
Her honesty was refreshing.

By the way, I won't fail to mention that on campuses, ALL these
Protestant / "Christian" groups never lose a moment in trying to
recruit an uncertain new foreigner to their belief system.

She confessed that she had briefly joined some non-denominational
"Christian" group but backed out after a while.

I am mentioning this because in the rush to fit in with American
students, so many Muslims are tempted by various things like this.
She wasn't a Muslim, I found out later.
She was a Bahai....that's how she was admitted to the U.S., for
ostensible 'persecution'. Otherwise no Iranians would be allowed
to emigrate here in these recent tense years.

Finally : Christians usually DO NOT see Mormons as Christians.
Mormons are aware of this, and thus stress Jesus all over the place to try to gain acceptance.
They are keen to feel persecuted by other Americans. They are more interested in their
supposed 'prophet', Joseph Smith, than Jesus as far as I could see from exterior observation.
I think the name "Church of jesus Christ of Latter-day saints" is a COVER !

Too, they refer to themselves as "LDS" not as "Mormons" which is probably viewed
as a bit derogatory term used by outsiders for their idea system.

haviZsultan
04-02-2012, 05:55 PM
Not just christians but also atheists and our nighbours are hindu with tons of idols in their homes,we get along just fine.

you are uneducated and make up stuff to satisfy your biased view point.
i have full respect for westerners for having their culture intact unlike wannabees such as you who spread lies about his supposed people and call it liberalism and at the same time cry about tolerance.
while you are showing no sign of tolerance yourself.

I am emotional. It is hard for me to accept the people destroying our land in such a brutal manner are actually paraded as superheroes by some people.
Plus we talk about tolerance... everyone is taught to be tolerant towards other faiths, other nationalities, other races... even the others skin colour. But I admit I have never been taught how to be tolerant to the taliban, people we call terrorists.

But you are right. That is your choice and I should not blame you for supporting the Taliban.

I believe you are a by-product of American policy which in 1980's created thousands of you just to see a soviet defeat. Those same Americans came running back when their little towers got destroyed. They caused this mess.

I just wish we didn't have to pay for it. After all its MUSLIMS/Pakistanis/Afghans/Iraqis/Yemenis/Somalis dying daily in the suicide bombings and killings the fanatics commit.

Al Hanif
04-02-2012, 05:59 PM
^ complete nonsense

Now I understand why Alchemist wanted you to be banned.

Old School Killiwal
04-02-2012, 06:43 PM
i made this thread on 11-27-2011, 05:04 PM and niggas is still going.

evilbunny
04-02-2012, 07:28 PM
do they worship jesus, allah or "holy spirit" or all three of them? i have read somewhere that they believe all 3 of them = god, so arent they polytheists?

Christians aren't polytheists. As they don't believe in three diffrent gods, but rather a single god that has three indivisible, aspects or forms.

In the Old Testament "god walked though the garden of eden" and appeared as a burning bush etc. Hence god can manfests himself in diffrent forms. Quite why such a proposition is unreasonable to Muslims, given the fact that god is an omnipotent being I don't know.

also, how can they believe jesus was son of god and god at the same time? and also, how can god die? who is holy spirit?

Jesus not only died he was resurrected from the dead. However the point is that Jesus was god manfested as a mortal man and he died as a sin offering. Hence when Jesus died everyone who came before him where absolved from their sins. The Christian religion in some sence is a reformation of Judaism and it draws upon much older messianic Jewish traditions.

God is omnipresent and the holy spirit is a mystical manifestation of god akin to a ghost or a presence.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-02-2012, 08:02 PM
Christians aren't polytheists. As they don't believe in three diffrent gods, but rather a single god that has three indivisible, aspects or forms.

In the Old Testament "god walked though the garden of eden" and appeared as a burning bush etc. Hence god can manfests himself in diffrent forms. Quite why such a proposition is unreasonable to Muslims, given the fact that god is an omnipotent being I don't know.

This is really a play on language and also internally contradictory. If there are "thee different forms" of God, then the 4th Form would have been a Burning Bush and even better yet, why limit it to just 3 or 4, Infinite regression; everything can then really be a form of God, and thus the focus on Jesus or any other secondary form becomes not only void of merit but inconsequential and redundant. And even taking it a step further since "Forms" are terminable and God by definition is not terminable. then really these "forms" of God cannot really be equated to God. Which leaves the only possibility that Christians do in fact worship Three Idols they taken to "represent" God. And not God.


Jesus not only died he was resurrected from the dead. However the point is that Jesus was god manfested as a mortal man and he died as a sin offering. Hence when Jesus died everyone who came before him where absolved from their sins. The Christian religion in some sence is a reformation of Judaism and it draws upon much older messianic Jewish traditions.

This is only a narrative; something rebutted by Bart Ehman and modern Biblical Scholarship

God is omnipresent and the holy spirit is a mystical manifestation of god akin to a ghost or a presence.

This concept itself would nullify the notion of trinity; since "God being omnipresent" means he is present everywhere in all things thus, there is not one central place or location God manifested in.

roadrunner
04-02-2012, 09:39 PM
revolution, what's your problem? People are not sticking up for Christianity, to defend something illogical, they are explaining it to you. Can't you see that, or are you too thick?

faye
04-02-2012, 09:43 PM
^ complete nonsense

Now I understand why Alchemist wanted you to be banned.

alchemist wanted someone banned? what a wimp. some of you guys are such BIG GIRLS. :shy:

Afghanistan2010
04-03-2012, 04:41 AM
Faye,
you seem not far from the kingdom of God. Compassion, forgiveness, and the joy of eternal life are the goal of the Lord's dealings with us. God became incarnate in Jesus so that we might see and know this abundant love and goodness of God. Of course she have no knowledge of the darkside my friend which you try since 2000 years to corrupt and to cut out. ;) New Testament 2012 ;)



Brothers,
What is your interest in this line of questioning? For now I will give the benefit of the doubt that you ask sincerely. Your questions are in quotation marks, followed by a brief reply. I have been brief on purpose to keep things more manageable. One has only so much time. Perhaps we will have an opportunity later for elaboration.

"According to scriptures there is one God and jesus is not God."
Half right. According to the Holy Scriptures, there is one God and also Jesus is that God.



Did Jesus (Pbuh) tell you or knew when the Day of Judgement was or the Last day.



"Where in the Scriptures does Jesus say He is God and to worship Him?"
There are many places in the Holy Scriptures that teach Jesus's Divinity and Lordship. For example, from John chapter 5: "[Jesus] called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."


Are we not all the children of God,does this not make us equal to Jesus (pbuh)


As to worship specifically, the Lord Jesus receives worship on many occasions. For example, Matthew chapter 2: "They saw the child with Mary His mother, and they fell down and worshiped Him."

Did anywhere it appears that Jesus (pbuh) told them to worship me ?



"If God dies for 3 days then who runs the world?"
Christians believe that God is omnipotent and can do all that He wills to do. The Lord Jesus remained God when His human nature suffered and died on the cross. He is fully able to run the universe even while sacrificing Himself for mankind. Truly God is great!


If God dies,he is not a God.
He was jelling and crying on the cross and suffering and bleeding ?!
He ate and went to the Bathroom as all the other human ?!

faye
04-03-2012, 07:26 AM
everything is god. god is everything. how can it not be?

faye
04-03-2012, 08:15 AM
ok. what did god create everything from?

faye
04-03-2012, 08:24 AM
from where came the smokeless fire and clay?

faye
04-03-2012, 08:31 AM
youtube? where's your own brain?

faye
04-03-2012, 09:00 AM
you refuted what i said now you claim not to know. if you don't know, then how do you know i am wrong?

evilbunny
04-03-2012, 12:41 PM
it caant be.
God cannot be its own creation.
you cant be your kids.

How do you know what god can and can't be?

Afghanistan2010
04-03-2012, 03:24 PM
from where came the smokeless fire and clay?

I can explain to you inshaAllah,please read it with attention.

the clay for the creation of the humen came from the earth which was created billions of years in our time before,and Allah the most high ordered an Angel to bring earth,so the Angel went to earth and asked the earth for permission to take some clay,the earth sought refugee in God,so the Angel returned to Allah the most high (of course the Angel never saw Allah directly but there was connection which Allah the most high had established,here it is better in an authentic hadith (saying of the Prophet (pbuh))


Ibn Masud and other companions of the Prophet (PBUH) said that Allah the Almighty sent Gabriel onto the earth to said that Allah the Almighty sent Gabriel onto the earth to get Him clay therefrom. The earth said: "I seek refuge in Allah from your decreasing my quantity or disfiguring me." So Gabriel returned and did not take anything. He said: "My Lord, the land sought refuge in You and it granted."

So Allah sent Michael for the same purpose, and the land sought refuge with Allah and it was granted. So he went back and said to Allah what Gabriel has said before him.

Then Allah sent the Angel of Death, and the land sought refuge in Allah, the angel said: "I also seek refuge with Allah from returning without carrying out His command." So he took clay from the face of the earth and mixed it. He did not take from one particular place, but rather he took white, red, and black clay from different places.

The Angel of Death ascended with it, Allah soaked the clay till it became sticky. Then Allah said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Chapter 38:71-72 Quran).

So Allah shaped Adam into a human being, but he remaineda figure of clay for 40 years. The angels went past him. They were seized with fear by what they saw, and Iblis felt fear most. He used to pass by the figure of Adam, buffeting it, which would make a sound like pottery. Allah told us: "He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery." ( 55:Quran).

When the time drew near to breathe the spirit into Adam, as Allah decreed, He commanded the angels: "When I breathe My spirit into him prostrate before him." Allah breathed His spirit into Adam and when it reached his head Adam sneezed. The angels said: "Say all praise belongs to Allah." Adam repeated: "All praise belongs to Allah." Allah said to him: "Your Lord has granted you mercy." When the spirit reached his eyes, Adam looked at the fruits of Paradise. When it reached his abdomen Adam felt an appetite for food. He jumped hurriedly before the spirit could reach his legs, so that he could eat from the fruits of Paradise. Allah, therefore, said: "Man is created of haste." ( 21:37 Quran). And then: The angels prostrated themselves all of them together. Except Iblis, he refused to be among the prostrators. ( 15:31-32 Quran).

randolph85
04-03-2012, 05:55 PM
god burdens his own creation with sin based on those who came before them, we are born sinners. then god has a son who is either god himself or his son, christians don't even know the answer to this so don't bother asking me. in order to be saved from a sin in which we did not commit, we must accept a man as god despite his own words disavowing this status and deny books which were not deemed acceptable to the government which became the church. the church accepts and denies books of the bible like they were nothing.

god the creator of the universe/multiverse, and universes/multiverses that came before it and intelligent life spread across the heavens does not stoop to becoming a man. the quran tells us that the earth was here far longer than human beings. its to make us feel small, which we are.

3 never ='s 1. you don't need to be a math whiz to know that. the theology of christianity is a joke.

faye
04-03-2012, 07:47 PM
each to his own.
my creator is not a grumpy snob who looks down upon creation nor curses it nor wants it to be afraid of it's originator.
the creator i believe in is everywhere, is everything..all the time;-)

Al Hanif
04-03-2012, 07:49 PM
each to his own.

faye
04-03-2012, 07:50 PM
are you an echo?

SUMMERLOVE
04-03-2012, 07:53 PM
Each to her own

RevolutionThroughReason
04-03-2012, 08:29 PM
That is why they call it Christinsanity :)

faye
04-03-2012, 08:32 PM
or is it all just an illusion?

SUMMERLOVE
04-03-2012, 08:35 PM
Do cows eat grass?

faye
04-03-2012, 08:38 PM
in my manifestation, yes they do. in yours?

SUMMERLOVE
04-03-2012, 08:41 PM
In mine they put their left leg in their right leg out and shake it all about. Then I again I do live on earth unlike you.

faye
04-03-2012, 08:44 PM
really? how boring, you poor chappie. my dimension is fabo. pop over, be my guest.

SUMMERLOVE
04-03-2012, 08:48 PM
I dont fancy sitting under a bridge somewhere in Darwin drinking cheap cider and picking up cigarette butts. I stay in my dimension for now, feel free not to pop round anytime soon.

faye
04-03-2012, 08:52 PM
darling, are you still picking up ciggy butts?
in my reality darwin is too darned hot. a tipi in nimbin is cool. bring your own headress.

SUMMERLOVE
04-03-2012, 08:59 PM
I'll think I'll pass, I'm toilet training the piglets.

faye
04-03-2012, 09:01 PM
nice....i envy you.

Afghanistan2010
04-04-2012, 04:07 AM
each to his own.
my creator is not a grumpy snob who looks down upon creation nor curses

Of course,God ( Allah ) does not curse and ruin people except for that they have ruined themselves and took upon themselves the curse of Allah.

Allah the most high says :

6:4 (http://quran.com/6/7)
And no sign comes to them from the signs of their Lord except that they turn away therefrom.

6:5 (http://quran.com/6/7)
For they had denied the truth when it came to them, but there is going to reach them the news of what they used to ridicule.



6:6 (http://quran.com/6/7)

Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them which We had established upon the earth as We have not established you? And We sent [rain from] the sky upon them in showers and made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins and brought forth after them a generation of others.


6:7 (http://quran.com/6/7)


And even if We had sent down to you, [O Muhammad], a written scripture on a page and they touched it with their hands, the disbelievers would say, "This is not but obvious magic."

6:8 (http://quran.com/6/8)


And they say, "Why was there not sent down to him an angel?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would have been decided; then they would not be reprieved.

6:9 (http://quran.com/6/9)


And if We had made him an angel, We would have made him [appear as] a man, and We would have covered them with that in which they cover themselves.

6:10 (http://quran.com/6/10)


And already were messengers ridiculed before you, but those who mocked them were enveloped by that which they used to ridicule.

6:11 (http://quran.com/6/11)


Say, "Travel through the land; then observe how was the end of the deniers."

6:12 (http://quran.com/6/12)


Say, "To whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth?" Say, "To Allah ." He has decreed upon Himself mercy. He will surely assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. Those who will lose themselves [that Day] do not believe.


6:13 (http://quran.com/6/7)
And to Him belongs that which reposes by night and by day, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.


6:14 (http://quran.com/6/7)
Say, "Is it other than Allah I should take as a protector, Creator of the heavens and the earth, while it is He who feeds and is not fed?" Say, [O Muhammad], "Indeed, I have been commanded to be the first [among you] who submit [to Allah ] and [was commanded], 'Do not ever be of the polytheists.' "

Afghanistan2010
04-04-2012, 04:22 AM
wants it to be afraid of it's originator.
the creator i believe in is everywhere, is everything..all the time;-)

What is meant being afraid or to fear Allah the most high,in islam it means being conscious about Allah the most high and his borders which he has set up.
And Allah says: “It is only those who have knowledge among Allah's servants who fear Him.” [ Srah Ftir : 28]

Ibn Mas`d explained what it means to fear Allah as He ought to be feared by saying: “It means that He is to be obeyed not disobeyed, remembered not forgotten, and shown gratitude not ingratitude.”

And indeed the fear or being afraid of Allah means : As if you love someone and you fear that he might be angry by doing certain things.


How can God be everything and everywhere,when he created the time,the space,how he can be that which is created , how can he remain God when he is in need of food,dies,be a human,or be an animal, is God not the most high and the most powerful and the most knowledgeable how can God lower himself,when he is the King of the Kings,and how can one be God when he resembles something else,but God is uncreated he is the living the most forgiving,the most merciful and nothing resembles him.

Allah says in the Quran : that those who don't believe say : Why are not the angels sent down to us, or why do we not see our Lord?" Indeed they think too highly of themselves, and are scornful with great pride. S. 25:20-21

faye
04-04-2012, 06:29 AM
what i don't understand, is why you can't explain your beliefs in your own words. you must have been learning your religion since young but you need quotes from the qu'ran or youtubes to explain what you believe.
i think some of you young folk have been growing up online and actually have lost the use of your own brain or haven't used it in the first place.
one has to contemplate, not just copy or quote, so you know yourself and your beliefs from personal actualisation and realisation.

Afghanistan2010
04-04-2012, 06:38 AM
I have read these verses and i have the understanding that they are the shortest expressions for the widest meanings.

I did not got my understanding from someone,i got my understanding from the Quran and the authentic sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) and the meaning of these very verses by those who were present with the Prophet (pbuh) and the knowledge that the scholars gathered to share it with us with easy understanding.

faye
04-04-2012, 11:42 AM
after that failed lobotomy lol, there aint much you can teach me.

Afghanistan2010
04-04-2012, 02:05 PM
hitting on shattered drums,doesn't make any sense
and this resembles you,we could speak for weeks to you it will change nothing.

Catya Sher
04-04-2012, 02:57 PM
faye
SHUT up ! You ruined a thread about a serious subject.
Take your hippie ideas to another online forum.
No one wants to read your trash.
Hope you will be banned soon Inshallah.

Zirey
04-04-2012, 06:10 PM
A lot of thoughtful questions. And Faye is so witty! I'll start with shadowgovenor's questions and add a few of the others' questions at the end. Sorry if I repeat some of what evilbunny wrote. No plagiarism intended.

"So if according to scriptures it is one God than how come Jesus is also God?What makes him a God?Where exactly does he claim to be God?"
--The Holy Scriptures teach both that there is one God and that Jesus is that one God. The Lord Jesus is divine by nature. There are many places in the Scriptures where He declares or shows His divinity. For example, He says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End...who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8).

"if he calls himself son then he is probably not equal to father?"
--Like begets like. The Father's nature and the Son's nature are equally divine, just as my son's nature is as equally human as my nature.

"Then who did Jesus Pray to?"
--The Lord Jesus prayed to His Father. The one God is not lonely and silent. He is a community of Persons within Himself who speak to one another. This is why communities as well as an individual people reflect the one God's image.

"Who were they?
where did they come from?
When Jesus was born,was he right away God or did he become that later?"
--This is a fine trio of questions. The visitors were wise men from a region east of Palestine. They found the child Jesus in Bethlehem by listening to the Hebrew prophet Micah. Centuries before the Messiah was born of the virgin Mary, Micah had prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah also prophesied that the Messiah existed long before His human birth, from 'the days of eternity'. So according to the prophet, the Messiah did not become God at His birth or later. Rather, Jesus the Messiah had always been God, since 'the days of eternity'.

"So are you saying that God went into a normal man and than he led that man to his death to make other people's sins disapear?"
--This may be one of the misconceptions that we need to clear up. God did not raise an otherwise ordinary man up to be God. Rather, out of love for the world, God Himself became a man and appeared in human flesh like ours.

"which sins?
When he sacrifices himself he dies right?"
--Yes, the Lord Jesus sacrificed Himself and died to take away the sin of the world. Because of this, my sins are forgiven and I have eternal life and peace with God.

"But than again it become mutiple gods.
How about the holy ghost?
where did that come from?
arent those three gods?"
--The Holy Spirit is divine just as the Father and the Son are. Once you understand that Jesus Christ is the only-begotten Son of God, then the doctrine of the Trinity will not be such a stumblingblock.

'after how many days did "jesus "came back" "from the dead"?'
--He died on a Friday and rose again on the following Sunday, just as He foretold.

"This is only a narrative; something rebutted by Bart Ehman and modern Biblical Scholarship"
--There are two kinds of modern Biblical scholarship. One is faithless scholarship and the other is faithful scholarship. Faithful scholarship supports the Biblical evidence. The Lord laughs at little men's attempts to destroy His Word. The Bible is an anvil that has worn out many hammers. No other book has been attacked so much. Why do so many try to refute the Bible? If it is a silly myth, why is there such hostility toward the Holy Scriptures? Perhaps deep down inside the Bible's enemies sense its power and are afraid.

"This concept itself would nullify the notion of trinity; since "God being omnipresent" means he is present everywhere in all things thus, there is not one central place or location God manifested in."
--God is omnipresent but He can manifest Himself anywhere and in any way He chooses. He is great and Almighty.

"If God dies,he is not a God.
He was yelling and crying on the cross and suffering and bleeding ?!
He ate and went to the Bathroom as all the other human ?!"
--Yes and no. The Lord Jesus died in His human nature but not in His immortal divine nature. His body was fully human and functioned like ours. There is nothing unworthy about how God designed the human body.

"Are we not all the children of God,does this not make us equal to Jesus (pbuh)"
-- There are three types of sonship found in the Holy Scriptures.
1. By virtue of our creation, all sons of Adam and daughters of Eve are God's offspring.
2. By virtue of their baptism, Christians are adopted children of God.
3. By virtue of His divine nature, Jesus is the 'only-begotten' Son of God. This is a unique kind of sonship. It is shared by no other being.

"Did anywhere it appears that Jesus (pbuh) told them to worship me ?"
Because Jesus is God, the privilige of worshiping God is the same as the privilege of worshiping Jesus. The Bible in fact says, referring to Jesus, "And let all the angels of God worship Him". So not only do believers worship Jesus, the holy angels also worship the Lord Jesus.
As for the 'PBUH', just the opposite is appropriate. He has no need of our prayers. According to both the Holy Scriptures and the experience of believers, Jesus Himself gives peace. This is an irrefutable, unmistakable proof that He is God.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-04-2012, 06:31 PM
A lot of thoughtful questions. And Faye is so witty! I'll start with shadowgovenor's questions and add a few of the others' questions at the end. Sorry if I repeat some of what evilbunny wrote. No plagiarism intended.


"This is only a narrative; something rebutted by Bart Ehman and modern Biblical Scholarship"
--There are two kinds of modern Biblical scholarship. One is faithless scholarship and the other is faithful scholarship. Faithful scholarship supports the Biblical evidence. The Lord laughs at little men's attempts to destroy His Word. The Bible is an anvil that has worn out many hammers. No other book has been attacked so much. Why do so many try to refute the Bible? If it is a silly myth, why is there such hostility toward the Holy Scriptures? Perhaps deep down inside the Bible's enemies sense its power and are afraid.

hehe obviously; that's called Bias and Special Pleading. Biblical Scholarship is based on evidence. The evidence shows the Biblical narrative is well insufficient.

"This concept itself would nullify the notion of trinity; since "God being omnipresent" means he is present everywhere in all things thus, there is not one central place or location God manifested in."
--God is omnipresent but He can manifest Himself anywhere and in any way He chooses. He is great and Almighty.

But Omnipresent implies being manifest everywhere; thus the claim is nullified by the terms itself.




"If God dies,he is not a God.
He was yelling and crying on the cross and suffering and bleeding ?!
He ate and went to the Bathroom as all the other human ?!"
--Yes and no. The Lord Jesus died in His human nature but not in His immortal divine nature. His body was fully human and functioned like ours. There is nothing unworthy about how God designed the humain body.


This too becomes incoherent; because if we assume that God has an aspect of him subject to termination; this would nullify his attributes of Omnipotence, Omnipresence and which in turn makes the the alleged Human Nature of God, not God and thus cannot be claimed to be deity by definition.

It's just like the Nietzchean axiom "Can God make a rock that he can't carry"?" No because incapacity is the opposite of capacity and thus this question has no meaning. Same here; terminability means an absence of the divine properties of God and thus Jesus couldn't be God by the definitions of the terms.

randolph85
04-04-2012, 07:02 PM
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” Mark 15:34, Matthew 27:46


the creator of everything asking himself a question out of abandonment to himself.

faye
04-04-2012, 07:07 PM
faye
SHUT up ! You ruined a thread about a serious subject.
Take your hippie ideas to another online forum.
No one wants to read your trash.
Hope you will be banned soon Inshallah.
:rofl1: darling i thought you'd be busy, pulling ghundals strings.
good to see you letting your hair down a little. keep it up. you may finally liberate yourself from all that venomous, pent up, anger and hate.
what a dreadful way to grow old. festering in that mess. because of my love for you, i will stay.
it is my spiritual duty to assist you, in this purging.
LOVE:hug:

randolph85
04-04-2012, 07:31 PM
--Yes and no. The Lord Jesus died in His human nature but not in His immortal divine nature. His body was fully human and functioned like ours. There is nothing unworthy about how God designed the human body.you didn't fully address the quote that my quote of yours was supposedly addressing. why would the lord cry out to his father. its not so much the crying and screaming we are wondering about, since we are following your understanding of this theology that god was in the form of man thus felt like a man. its WHY god had to ask himself(or his father?) why he was foresaken because of simple human pain that he felt.

muslims, even fkin atheists, have been through worse torture than jesus supposedly went through, but haven't question the all mighty or reversed their beliefs. whereas jesus, knowing he is the son of god (or god? who the f knows) according to the bible, is acting like a baby and asking where daddy is? knowing that through him creation begins and ends in the universe and he is destined for heaven.

the bible makes jesus seem like an idiot. issa (pbuh) deserves more respect than that.

faye
04-05-2012, 12:46 AM
surely though, we are all created from god.
individual atoms make up a human. whilst the atoms are a part of the human they are a human, no?
therefore, if we are a part of god, we are also god, no?

mir mahsud
04-05-2012, 12:52 AM
:rofl1: darling i thought you'd be busy, pulling ghundals strings.
good to see you letting your hair down a little. keep it up. you may finally liberate yourself from all that venomous, pent up, anger and hate.
what a dreadful way to grow old. festering in that mess. because of my love for you, i will stay.
it is my spiritual duty to assist you, in this purging.
LOVE:hug:

lol this made my night

Zirey
04-07-2012, 01:16 PM
Dear Faye,
here's the thing, if we are parts of God, then God is no longer fully perfect, at least if I'm included in there. But what if we keep the Creator's nature distinct from that of His creatures? In that way we can have the best of everything. A perfect God who will bring us all to perfection. Sometimes sharp distinctions are necessary as you will see below.

quoted from RevelationThroughReason and Randolph85:
"But Omnipresent implies being manifest everywhere; thus the claim is nullified by the terms itself. This too becomes incoherent; because if we assume that God has an aspect of him subject to termination; this would nullify his attributes of Omnipotence, Omnipresence and which in turn makes the the alleged Human Nature of God, not God and thus cannot be claimed to be deity by definition. It's just like the Nietzchean axiom "Can God make a rock that he can't carry"?" No because incapacity is the opposite of capacity and thus this question has no meaning. Same here; terminability means an absence of the divine properties of God and thus Jesus couldn't be God by the definitions of the terms."
--Dear RevelationThroughReason and Randolph85,
if I'm not mistaken, you think that, according to the Christian faith, the Lord Jesus's humanity itself was divinized or made God. If that were so, then I could see the grounds for your objection. However, such is not the case. Christians distinguish Jesus's human and divine natures from each other. Jesus's divine nature is not subject to termination or limitation. He is fully God. Only his human nature was finite, fully man. Though united in one Person, our Lord's humanity and divinity remain distinct and retain their distinctive properties.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’” Mark 15:34, Matthew 27:46
you didn't fully address the quote that my quote of yours was supposedly addressing. why would the lord cry out to his father. its not so much the crying and screaming we are wondering about, since we are following your understanding of this theology that god was in the form of man thus felt like a man. its WHY god had to ask himself(or his father?) why he was foresaken because of simple human pain that he felt. "
--I think this question derived from the same misconception addressed above. As a suffering man, Jesus addressed His Father as anyone who is fully man might do. But your question is especially timely as Christians now observe Good Friday and Easter. By quoting Psalm 22 ( "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) from the cross, the Lord Jesus points to Himself as the fulfillment of that Messianic Psalm, which prophesied around 1000 B.C. regarding His Crucifixion and Resurrection.

faye
04-07-2012, 05:50 PM
that is the problem. humans expecting and blaming. god will make me perfect, the devil made me do it.
we were supposedly given free will and choices to do the work and create, ourselves.
i think that, at this point in time, i am as perfect as i am able to be. at another point in time i am as perfect as i am able to be, at that point in time.
if we are created by a god and from that god, then we are also god.
there is no finiteness, i believe. the physical form recyles at 'death' and the spirit continues, as it is belonging to the creator or part thereof.
i believe there is a reason for all things and all actions, even the most negative...i believe existence in this realm, it is a learning and creating process.

Afghanistan2010
04-07-2012, 06:06 PM
Do you really believe in your bible ?

faye
04-07-2012, 06:17 PM
who are you adressing?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-07-2012, 07:03 PM
Dear Faye,
here's the thing, if we are parts of God, then God is no longer fully perfect, at least if I'm included in there. But what if we keep the Creator's nature distinct from that of His creatures? In that way we can have the best of everything. A perfect God who will bring us all to perfection. Sometimes sharp distinctions are necessary as you will see below.

quoted from RevelationThroughReason and Randolph85:
"But Omnipresent implies being manifest everywhere; thus the claim is nullified by the terms itself. This too becomes incoherent; because if we assume that God has an aspect of him subject to termination; this would nullify his attributes of Omnipotence, Omnipresence and which in turn makes the the alleged Human Nature of God, not God and thus cannot be claimed to be deity by definition. It's just like the Nietzchean axiom "Can God make a rock that he can't carry"?" No because incapacity is the opposite of capacity and thus this question has no meaning. Same here; terminability means an absence of the divine properties of God and thus Jesus couldn't be God by the definitions of the terms."
--Dear RevelationThroughReason and Randolph85,
if I'm not mistaken, you think that, according to the Christian faith, the Lord Jesus's humanity itself was divinized or made God. If that were so, then I could see the grounds for your objection. However, such is not the case. Christians distinguish Jesus's human and divine natures from each other. Jesus's divine nature is not subject to termination or limitation. He is fully God. Only his human nature was finite, fully man. Though united in one Person, our Lord's humanity and divinity remain distinct and retain their distinctive properties.



No I am saying that Jesus' terminability proves there's an absence of divinity. It is just like the idea of a Tall short Man , you can't be Tall AND Short, you have to be Tall OR Short. He can't be Human AND God, he has to be Human OR God. Also the concept of being fully God and fully Human" or as you would put it "possessing divine and human natures" at the same time fails the litmus test too. By definition of something alleged as Divine would not have a human nature in the first place Since being Divine means the absence of human vulnerabilities; since Jesus had a human nature, he could not possess both simultaneously. Thus would not have been divine. By deduction.

I get your argument; but Christian Theology is heavily internally contradictory and the attempts made by generations afterwards fall short in reconcilling it. Coupled with the fact that there is no concrete evidence that the early followers of Jesus believed he was divine not speculative interpolation (i.e. claiming some of his followers prostrated to him) .

This is why Muslims reject Christianity; it is simply put, logically absurd in its foundations.

faye
04-07-2012, 07:35 PM
but one can be a tall or short person..in comparison to a shorter or a taller person.
the divine is said to have created the human, it therefore possesses that which it has created. how can it be not connected when the divine energy and consciousness is supposed to be the lifeforce of creation.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-07-2012, 07:40 PM
but one can be a tall or short person..in comparison to a shorter or a taller person.
the divine is said to have created the human, it therefore possesses that which it has created. how can it be not connected when the divine energy and consciousness is supposed to be the lifeforce of creation.



That's "taller" and "shorter" compared to something else; not within the person, There's no such comparable degree of divinity, A Being is God or it's not God.

Does it possess that which it created? does a clockmaker contain gears and and cogs? There maybe a "connection" this is different than having congruent properties.

faye
04-07-2012, 07:47 PM
but how can the properties of humans not be from the properties of their creator?
we are also creators.
the whole creation/creator may always have been and always will be and we are an aspect of that.
i am not saying we as a human created EVERYTHING but we are a molecule, if you like, of that whole.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-07-2012, 07:54 PM
but how can the properties of humans not be from the properties of their creator?
we are also creators.
the whole creation/creator may always have been and always will be and we are an aspect of that.
i am not saying we as a human created EVERYTHING but we are a molecule, if you like, of that whole.


from ...not identical. The Earth came from debris emerging from Stars, it is not identical to a Star.

That should answer the question.

faye
04-07-2012, 08:08 PM
that doesn't answer the question i asked there because i didn't say identical, in the overall ability to create EVERYTHING.
how does god create us? from the imagination? to create a creation wouldn't god have to first have an idea or visualisation which is then manifested? and the manifesting is also of the creator.
so, the creation is part of the consciousness and manifestion of the creator.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-07-2012, 08:33 PM
hmm I guess imagination would have to be it since matter itself is immaterial.

faye
04-07-2012, 09:13 PM
consciousness and energy.

randolph85
04-07-2012, 09:23 PM
Dear Faye,
here's the thing, if we are parts of God, then God is no longer fully perfect, at least if I'm included in there. But what if we keep the Creator's nature distinct from that of His creatures? In that way we can have the best of everything. A perfect God who will bring us all to perfection. Sometimes sharp distinctions are necessary as you will see below.

quoted from RevelationThroughReason and Randolph85:
"But Omnipresent implies being manifest everywhere; thus the claim is nullified by the terms itself. This too becomes incoherent; because if we assume that God has an aspect of him subject to termination; this would nullify his attributes of Omnipotence, Omnipresence and which in turn makes the the alleged Human Nature of God, not God and thus cannot be claimed to be deity by definition. It's just like the Nietzchean axiom "Can God make a rock that he can't carry"?" No because incapacity is the opposite of capacity and thus this question has no meaning. Same here; terminability means an absence of the divine properties of God and thus Jesus couldn't be God by the definitions of the terms."
--Dear RevelationThroughReason and Randolph85,
if I'm not mistaken, you think that, according to the Christian faith, the Lord Jesus's humanity itself was divinized or made God. If that were so, then I could see the grounds for your objection. However, such is not the case. Christians distinguish Jesus's human and divine natures from each other. Jesus's divine nature is not subject to termination or limitation. He is fully God. Only his human nature was finite, fully man. Though united in one Person, our Lord's humanity and divinity remain distinct and retain their distinctive properties.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Mark 15:34, Matthew 27:46
you didn't fully address the quote that my quote of yours was supposedly addressing. why would the lord cry out to his father. its not so much the crying and screaming we are wondering about, since we are following your understanding of this theology that god was in the form of man thus felt like a man. its WHY god had to ask himself(or his father?) why he was foresaken because of simple human pain that he felt. "
--I think this question derived from the same misconception addressed above. As a suffering man, Jesus addressed His Father as anyone who is fully man might do. But your question is especially timely as Christians now observe Good Friday and Easter. By quoting Psalm 22 ( "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?) from the cross, the Lord Jesus points to Himself as the fulfillment of that Messianic Psalm, which prophesied around 1000 B.C. regarding His Crucifixion and Resurrection.


i wasn't merely talking about the flesh. jesus cries out in anguish knowing full well that he is god and his suffering will pass and he will quantum leap back to his throne in heaven...(or whatever)

how is it that a monk can light himself on fire and burn to death without flinching, a man mind you, but god himself is crying like a baby? are you trying to say that god couldn't handle the human form better than you know...humans?

also, like revolution mentioned, you can't pick and choose when it comes to the humanity or divinity of jesus christ. its one or the other.

faye
04-07-2012, 09:27 PM
quantum physics states that everything in the universe is pure energy, differing in rates of vibration.

randolph85
04-07-2012, 09:31 PM
quantum leap states that sam beckett can't make it home.

faye
04-07-2012, 09:33 PM
so?

randolph85
04-07-2012, 09:35 PM
exactly.

faye
04-07-2012, 09:45 PM
we are all just thoughtforms of gods imagination. time is simultaneous, there is only now. marvellous, isn't it? ;-)

RevolutionThroughReason
04-07-2012, 10:15 PM
you read the secret don't you

randolph85
04-07-2012, 10:17 PM
the secret lol

faye
04-07-2012, 11:50 PM
that the best you guys can do?? limp ;)

RevolutionThroughReason
04-08-2012, 02:11 AM
the aussie feels insecure

faye
04-08-2012, 03:12 AM
what a pity scimitar is not here anymore. he was quite bright about these subjects. oh well.:cryy:
anyone read the debate between the ash'arite and the muta'zilah? al-ghazali is such a beautiful writer. the way he expresses his thoughts is so lovely. i am delighted to read these intelligent peoples thoughts, from way back.
what a shame that people today, have lost that ability.
the muta'zilahites got it wrong though. they were outwitted by al-ghazali.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-08-2012, 08:21 AM
that's ironic; since Al Ghazzali was arguing against using speculative reasoning and intellect and favoring pure blind dogma akin to the Taliban.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-08-2012, 08:45 AM
here's an interesting video by Dr. Neil Tyson de Grasse

Creationists End Civilization - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbLDKLQYrg8)


he talks about Al Ghazali's ideas having an adverse impact on Muslims.

faye
04-08-2012, 09:27 AM
i'll get back to you. i'm busy reading the 'deliverence from error', where al put all the others in their place.
anyway RTR, what would you know about al-ghazali?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-08-2012, 09:45 AM
um well I've read a few of his treatises. He seems to hate people using their minds and reason.

faye
04-08-2012, 10:05 AM
no, the opposite i believe. he talks about 'inspiration' as a category of knowledge which cannot be attained by 'reason'. this might be your objection.
he seems to fully believe in judgement and continuation of essence after death.
he is great to read. the beautiful way he expresses himself. you may be able to read him in arabic, which would be good.

faye
04-08-2012, 11:01 AM
al-ghazali himself, uses his mind intensively, to analyse and give a critique of all the major views of reality, at that time, mathematics, philosophy, theology, atheism, logic etc, to look for his own truth. he stayed, though with a base of islam but said to not just be a blind believer.
he then went on a pilgrimage and path of contemplation for about 10 years and got right into sufism.
apparently he was accused of putting an end to islamic philosophy at that time, because of a book he wrote criticising other philosophers, including ibn sina. was later proved by someone else, to not have done what he was accused of. can't remember all the details, at this time of night.

that guy on the video is a pain, sputtering and carrying on. i wouldn't take too much notice of what he has to say about al-ahazali. he didn't even credit indians with the zero, just threw that in with his arab rave.

Manzareh
04-08-2012, 12:07 PM
Al-Ghazali, an appreciation of the pursuit of true reality-based wisdom.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9fYWlBdcNEU/TpZLhEXyGZI/AAAAAAAAABs/sGni85pIhqQ/s1600/Al-Ghazali.jpg

Master Khan
04-08-2012, 02:13 PM
christianity is a joke now, they keep changing bible.
and there holiday don't make sense anyway like Easter and Christmas.
What Easter have to do with Bunny and Eggs lol.

once I told this British white girl
"What is Christmas" and she goes to me "ummmm..is it the day that God died"..lol.

faye
04-09-2012, 12:25 AM
that's ironic; since Al Ghazzali was arguing against using speculative reasoning and intellect and favoring pure blind dogma akin to the Taliban.
he is a sufi, so how does that fit with taliban dogma?

faye
04-09-2012, 12:40 AM
here's an interesting video by Dr. Neil Tyson de Grasse

Creationists End Civilization - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbLDKLQYrg8)


he talks about Al Ghazali's ideas having an adverse impact on Muslims.

i just reviewed this video. can you show me where al'ghazali says mathematics is the work of the devil?

this is from his autobiography 'deliverence from error'.

firstly he classifies mathematics as an 'exact science' but has a beef with the mental attitude of those that depend too much on that exact science, falling away from their religion and religious scholars backing completely away from the sciences.

"a grievous crime indeed, against religion, has been committed by the man who imagines that ISLAM is defended by the denial of mathematical sciences, seeing that there is nothing in revealed truth, opposed to these sciences by way of either negation or affirmation, and nothing in these sciences opposed to the truth of religion"

apparently al-ghazali was given a bad rap by a physicist, stephen weinberg and some dude, professor pervez hoodbhoy.
have you been mentally colonised, me ole son?:evilgrin:

a very good rap is given on a site, www.monthly-renaissance.com (http://www.monthly-renaissance.com) "is al-ghazali really the halagu of science in islam?"

Zirey
04-11-2012, 08:41 PM
--RTR,
Humanity and divinity are not different in the same way that 'tall' and 'short' are different. Consider a relevant analogy--yourself, for example. You are composed of two radically different, even opposite substances, spirit and matter. Yet these two are united in one person, yourself. Similarly, Jesus has two fundamentally different natures, human and divine, united in one Person. God is great.

There is abundant evidence that the early Christians believed in the Messiah's divinity. The proof is found in the Holy Scriptures, the several early Bible translations, and the many writings that the early Church produced. Even the pagans bore witness that Christians sang hymns "to Christ as to a god" (Pliny, around A.D. 112).
 
--Randolph85,
When it comes to an article of faith, Christians do not 'pick and choose' what to believe. We accept all that the Word of God teaches, even when it surpasses limited human reason. By contrast, any view of God that fits comfortably within the confines of human reason is going to be inaccurate.

About the Lord's cry from the Cross, there is nothing shameful about expressing one's pain verbally. That is part of what it means to be human. In your example, by contrast, lighting oneself on fire and remaining silent is not human but demonic!

Besides, you underestimate Jesus if you think He cried out merely for His own sake. He was the man for others. Everything He said from the Cross was for our sakes. By quoting Psalm 22 on the Cross, He showed, for example, that His human suffering was real and not faked. He does not sit aloof from our suffering but was acquainted with it firsthand, overcame it, and now gives His followers a share in His victory. Therefore we believers now enjoy the free gifts of forgiveness and eternal life.


Again, by quoting from Psalm 22, He showed that He was the fulfillment of what the Holy Scriptures foretold concerning the Messiah--and not only in Psalm 22 but also Isaiah 53 and other Scriptures. If He had not fulfilled what the Scriptures foretold concerning the Messiah, how would the early Christians have recognized Him as the promised Messiah?

--Master Khan
Christians do not change the Bible. Rather, God's Word changes people.
On the symbols associated with Easter, the bunny got included somewhere along the way because Easter occurs in the springtime, a time of fertility. Like the eggs, it is cultural or folk symbol rather than a Biblical one. However, the eggs are capable of a more theological significance, since they represent new life and therefore point to the newly resurrected Jesus, whom hundreds of eyewitnesses saw.

randolph85
04-11-2012, 09:13 PM
first you are saying that he was crying out because he was a man, but now you are trying to tell me that he was crying out for mankind? so let me get this straight, god killed himself in order to forgive man for a burden that he himself placed on them? if i was a christian i would be wondering why i am being burdened with someone elses sin, instead of being grateful for someone dying (long before i was even born) to forgive me of a sin i didn't even commit.

and i don't think having the physical and mental fortitude to withstand the pain of being set on fire is demonic, especially when protesting government oppression. it just goes to show that a man has more mastery over the flesh than god himself supposedly did in jesus christ.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-11-2012, 10:17 PM
[SIZE=2]--RTR,
Humanity and divinity are not different in the same way that 'tall' and 'short' are different. Consider a relevant analogy--yourself, for example. You are composed of two radically different, even opposite substances, spirit and matter. Yet these two are united in one person, yourself. Similarly, Jesus has two fundamentally different natures, human and divine, united in one Person. God is great.

Tall and short are different characteristically, this is the same as Divine and Human. The distinction between Tall and Short vs. Divine and Human is that Tall and Short measures one characteristic that is Length, where as divine and human correspond to a set of characteristics. Divine would be uncreated, human would be created. Divine would be Infinite, Human Finite. Divine is Absolute, Human is Nonabsolute. In much the same way we distinguish from Tall and Short. for something to be Divine and Human would become intrinsically self negating. The Analogy between spirit and body is not between because despite being different, Spirit and Body are both created, Neither are infinite, meaning having existed indefinitely, they both had definite beginnings.

In other words their characteristics are not innately negated. The characteristics of human and divine are innately negations. Also again if you say something is "composed" of "Divine and Human" natures; then you're saying something is Partially Divine and Partially Human; the Christian narrative says he's WHOLLY Divine and WHOLLY Human. Meaning tat he is ENTIRELY Composed of Human and ENTIRELY Composed of divinity. If he's only partially divine then he cannot be God, because God is Wholly Divine, Part does not equal into the whole. If we go with Wholly Divine/Wholly Human, they are complete negations. Furthermore if you say "Spirit" is divine and that and we're all composed of spirit; then this makes Jesus no different than any of us. And thus there is no special reason to affirm the divinity of Jesus.

Each case shows the claim is incoherent.



There is abundant evidence that the early Christians believed in the Messiah's divinity. The proof is found in the Holy Scriptures, the several early Bible translations, and the many writings that the early Church produced. Even the pagans bore witness that Christians sang hymns "to Christ as to a god" (Pliny, around A.D. 112).
 


Sure there is evidence that CERTAIN sects of Christians may have deified him; after all after the doctrine gained inroads with Pagan Converts, Pagans naturally put their own Spin. The question is, DID THE EARLY, as in generations that had contact with Jesus or those close TO jesus actually acknowledge his divinity. For this we find nothing. In fact. we find evidence to the contrary

Letters of Jesus' brothers not included in Bible (Jesus as human prophet) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7bU7BH91C0)

faye
04-11-2012, 10:51 PM
so, from the human mind of imagining, one labels things as absolute, non-absolute, divine etc but that does not negate the possibility that 'human' is an aspect of the divine/ creator/allah, god.
as a cell is part of the formation of a whole human.
so what do you think the spirit is?
form is energy, they say in science. right? so what is spirit or essence?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-11-2012, 10:56 PM
But that would mean God can't exist without cells. the same way humans can't. If humans were an "aspect" of God it would imply God does not exist independently of God, and this we would be creators of God.

faye
04-11-2012, 11:32 PM
i see it more that creator and creation are one. one, consciousness. consciousness has dreams, visualisations, imaginings and they manifest as energy form, in this realm, that we call, the universe.
the energy that is the energy forms and the spirit which is the motivating force of everything, is an aspect of the whole, which is 'god'.
if we do not know what god is, only adjectives which describe, then we cannot say what god isn't. as in, you stating that human must be separate from the creator.

faye
04-11-2012, 11:35 PM
i think god can never NOT exist. the energy of matter, recycles.
the spirit, i believe continues to exist as it is god, lol.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 12:17 AM
we can always not exist, when we die we cease the human form, descend into a break down of matter and become other forms, at least the physical component of us. So you can say that the properties that engender matter could be an aspect of God; but humans couldn't be.

faye
04-12-2012, 12:45 AM
why?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 07:25 AM
That would imply God is terminable.

Afghanistan2010
04-12-2012, 07:36 AM
Do you know danton's death the book ?

there is a story,how it is impossible that there is God,either he is in need of time (beginning) or space,but it is refuted by islam as follow : God exists without beginning and without end,there was not even space and time and God was there,God is the uncreated,and there is nothing that resembles from his creation him,he did not begot any children,he is from from partners.God the most high created the space and time.

faye
04-12-2012, 07:40 AM
depending on what you view spirit to be. i don't see any termination. i see transformation.
matter-energy-spirit-god. all one and alive, infinitely.
you haven't said what you think the spirit of humans is.

faye
04-12-2012, 07:48 AM
i read this on islam sites, said to be from qu'ran.
'he who knoweth his own self, knoweth god'

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 08:05 AM
well if your transform into something else; then you're no longer that thing you were before. Thus that thing you ere before is terminated (assuming that death is required for that transformation)

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 08:07 AM
Yes that's a correct statement; but it's like if you know darkness you know light, we learn of things by their contrasts.

faye
04-12-2012, 09:14 AM
so, you are saying that god does not incorporate the capacity to transform?
you are limiting god with your human imagination, perhaps.
is this the ash'arite/muta'zilah 'causality' dispute? god being cause or nature and free will of beings.....

faye
04-12-2012, 09:16 AM
Yes that's a correct statement; but it's like if you know darkness you know light, we learn of things by their contrasts.
ha..says who? for example?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 09:51 AM
well if all you saw was the light you wouldn't be able to identify darkness

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 09:52 AM
so, you are saying that god does not incorporate the capacity to transform?
you are limiting god with your human imagination, perhaps.
is this the ash'arite/muta'zilah 'causality' dispute? god being cause or nature and free will of beings.....



Or I'm expanding God out of the conditions we see being applied to finite things.


;) @ Mu'tazilah

faye
04-12-2012, 09:58 AM
finite is within infinite.

faye
04-12-2012, 10:12 AM
well if your transform into something else; then you're no longer that thing you were before. Thus that thing you ere before is terminated (assuming that death is required for that transformation)
the energy is still energy, the spirit is still spirit. the only change being the shape of the form, which recycles but is still energy.
'form is the organisation of energy at certain rates of vibration'

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 12:32 PM
that's much different than human being an aspect of God.

Afghanistan2010
04-12-2012, 03:02 PM
They don't knew how to **** on the toilet they talk about God and how God is and what God is.

Amazing.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-12-2012, 05:02 PM
and i don't think having the physical and mental fortitude to withstand the pain of being set on fire is demonic, especially when protesting government oppression. it just goes to show that a man has more mastery over the flesh than god himself supposedly did in jesus christ.

This is a very important point that you're highlighting that reveals the incoherence of Christian Apologetics from a theological perspective.

For to surmise that a Disbelieving monk could endure the the agony of being ignited on fire without any plea for help or agony as being the influence of demons/dark powers consequently implies that a being othat was supposed to be God did not have the power/ability to overcome duch distress and thus these demons would be more powerful than God according to the Christian apologetic narrative.

faye
04-12-2012, 11:09 PM
that's much different than human being an aspect of God.
ok. aspect is maybe the wrong word. i thought aspect meant 'feature' or 'a part'.

faye
04-12-2012, 11:15 PM
They don't knew how to **** on the toilet they talk about God and how God is and what God is.

Amazing.
if you happen to be referring to me, KID, i did the left hand ****ing number in muslim countries and india, for years, before you were even born.
you think you have ownership of god because you can upload quotes from the qu'ran ?
you are obviously very young, unworldly and a pretender. :smile1:

RevolutionThroughReason
04-13-2012, 09:06 AM
ok. aspect is maybe the wrong word. i thought aspect meant 'feature' or 'a part'.

it sounds like you're saying all things are energy so energy is part of God.

faye
04-13-2012, 09:25 AM
yes, because god has to create from god.

Afghanistan2010
04-13-2012, 04:30 PM
faye , you brain

answer me the question,what is there if there is no light and no darkness ?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-13-2012, 06:06 PM
well then Faye, then humans aren't an aspect of God, God is an aspect of God.

faye
04-13-2012, 07:17 PM
i thought 'aspect' was wrong for you.
if god is everything and created everything there is no argument that humans are god. how can they be other than 'all that is'?
but you still haven't answered my question about spirit. the essence that impels our thoughts and being.

faye
04-13-2012, 07:21 PM
faye , you brain
answer me the question,what is there if there is no light and no darkness ?
emptiness is form.
form is emptiness :educate:

randolph85
04-13-2012, 07:54 PM
i thought 'aspect' was wrong for you.
if god is everything and created everything there is no argument that humans are god. how can they be other than 'all that is'?
but you still haven't answered my question about spirit. the essence that impels our thoughts and being.


god is not everything

Zirey
04-13-2012, 09:12 PM
RTR,
The contrasts you listed between humanity and divinity are valid, but they do not prove that a composite union of two unlike natures in one person is impossible. Human reason cannot explain the personal union of unlike substances, spirit and matter, in an ordinary man. Yet this wonderful union is true. Much less can reason explain the composite union of divinity and humanity in the Messiah Jesus. It is yet more wonderful.

Your attempt to describe the Christian narrative regarding the two natures of Jesus showed that you still misunderstand our faith. We believe that only Jesus' human nature is 'wholly human' and only His Divine nature is 'wholly Divine', to use your terminology. It is like saying that only man's body is wholly matter and only his spirit is wholly spirit.

It was not just the Gentile Christians converted from paganism who regarded Jesus as Divine. The testimony of the Holy Scriptures is more about how the earliest Jewish Christians, born and bred in strict monotheism, also regarded Jesus as Divine. For example, the Jewish apostle Thomas, when he saw the resurrected Jesus, addressed Him as "My Lord and my God!" (John 20). The apostle Paul, a self-described "Hebrew of the Hebrews" who at first misunderstood our holy faith and persecuted Christians, called the Messiah "our great God and Savior" (Titus 3). Long before our Lord was born of the virgin Mary, the Old Testament prophecies had foretold that the Messiah would be Divine (Psalm 2, for example.)

--randolph85,
God did not kill Himself. Rather, it was sinners like you and me who unjustly put Jesus to death, even as the prophets foretold would happen. Yet He brings good out of evil and, as a result, forgiveness and eternal life to those who believe in Him.

randolph85 & RTR,
--It's odd that you find your hypothetical monk so praiseworthy. According to our faith, suicide is the unauthorized taking of a life, and therefore demonic like any other murder.
Anyway, the Messiah not only endured the Cross courageously as foretold, He also raised Himself from the dead. Now that's mastery over the flesh!

faye
04-13-2012, 09:34 PM
god is not everything
for me, god IS everything.
neither i nor you can prove each other wrong. so we can agree to disagree but it is my favourite contemplation and i enjoy to see how we each think and consider reality and it's creation. :shakeshand:

faye
04-13-2012, 09:51 PM
zirey, isn't overemphasis and adoration of the messanger a deviation from the message? i think the muslim prophet, muhammad, suggested not to waste time and energy over that kind of activity.

Al Hanif
04-13-2012, 11:39 PM
lol you people are still arguing about Christianity, Islam and Atheism.

There is no need to argue. The truth is obvious.

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/6542801334264828461.png

faye
04-13-2012, 11:42 PM
kindergarten down the hall, luv. where's your mother?

randolph85
04-14-2012, 01:58 AM
RTR,
The contrasts you listed between humanity and divinity are valid, but they do not prove that a composite union of two unlike natures in one person is impossible. Human reason cannot explain the personal union of unlike substances, spirit and matter, in an ordinary man. Yet this wonderful union is true. Much less can reason explain the composite union of divinity and humanity in the Messiah Jesus. It is yet more wonderful.

Your attempt to describe the Christian narrative regarding the two natures of Jesus showed that you still misunderstand our faith. We believe that only Jesus' human nature is 'wholly human' and only His Divine nature is 'wholly Divine', to use your terminology. It is like saying that only man's body is wholly matter and only his spirit is wholly spirit.

It was not just the Gentile Christians converted from paganism who regarded Jesus as Divine. The testimony of the Holy Scriptures is more about how the earliest Jewish Christians, born and bred in strict monotheism, also regarded Jesus as Divine. For example, the Jewish apostle Thomas, when he saw the resurrected Jesus, addressed Him as "My Lord and my God!" (John 20). The apostle Paul, a self-described "Hebrew of the Hebrews" who at first misunderstood our holy faith and persecuted Christians, called the Messiah "our great God and Savior" (Titus 3). Long before our Lord was born of the virgin Mary, the Old Testament prophecies had foretold that the Messiah would be Divine (Psalm 2, for example.)

--randolph85,
God did not kill Himself. Rather, it was sinners like you and me who unjustly put Jesus to death, even as the prophets foretold would happen. Yet He brings good out of evil and, as a result, forgiveness and eternal life to those who believe in Him.

randolph85 & RTR,
--It's odd that you find your hypothetical monk so praiseworthy. According to our faith, suicide is the unauthorized taking of a life, and therefore demonic like any other murder.
Anyway, the Messiah not only endured the Cross courageously as foretold, He also raised Himself from the dead. Now that's mastery over the flesh!



have fun with that false burden of sin on your shoulders, chief. walking into ones death when he could just as easily save himself is the same as killing oneself. jesus knowingly walked into his death according to you, that is suicide. you still haven't addressed why god had to die to forgive you of a sin you never even committed, or why sacrificing his son is such a big deal when his son was heaven bound to begin with. jesus died and was sent to heaven, something millions of christians believe will happen to them, what makes jesus so special then?

raising from the dead is not mastery over the flesh, its turning on and off the divinity/human button. something which christians can't rationalize, let alone explain in any coherent fashion. first hes god then hes a man then hes god then hes a man then he is something else. pick one and stick with it already.

my example is not exactly hypothetical either.

http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/buddhist_on_fire.jpg

Afghanistan2010
04-14-2012, 06:18 AM
for me, god IS everything.
neither i nor you can prove each other wrong. so we can agree to disagree but it is my favourite contemplation and i enjoy to see how we each think and consider reality and it's creation. :shakeshand:

Wrong,
you can be refuted by logic,but the other case is if you want to be convinced.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 12:09 PM
RTR,
The contrasts you listed between humanity and divinity are valid, but they do not prove that a composite union of two unlike natures in one person is impossible. Human reason cannot explain the personal union of unlike substances, spirit and matter, in an ordinary man. Yet this wonderful union is true. Much less can reason explain the composite union of divinity and humanity in the Messiah Jesus. It is yet more wonderful.


They do in fact prove it; the Analogy of Matter and Spirit; which are not necessarily contrary vs. divine and human which are in fact necessarily contrary is evident as explained previously.The Union of Unlke Substances is not the debate; the fact that human and divine are Negating Substances is. Spirit and Matter are not negations of the other.. Human and Divine are not just different but contradictory.
Merely "hand waving" over that issue does not give a rebuttal against them. Merely claiming it is "True" none the less is circular reasoning; You're merely affirming your own premise. This becomes nothing more than blind dogma.

Your attempt to describe the Christian narrative regarding the two natures of Jesus showed that you still misunderstand our faith. We believe that only Jesus' human nature is 'wholly human' and only His Divine nature is 'wholly Divine', to use your terminology. It is like saying that only man's body is wholly matter and only his spirit is wholly spirit.



This is just semantics; what your stating is essentially saying that Jesus is composed of two natures; One Jesus having Two Natures means he's Part this and part that; not Wholly this and Wholly that this negates itself. There is no misunderstanding of your faith; The problem is the terms your theology uses are intrinsically incoherent. It's a mish mash of different ideas which are logically inconsistent. And the Apologetics attempts to use clever linguistic devices to reconcile them; but this is still a red herring and they remain unreconciled.Wholly human and wholly divine are not my terms; these rae terms used by the Christian Narratives . If you say this is different than the actual Theological Doctrine then it shows that there is no precise understanding and thus the claim is nebulous

Point being the Theology of Christianity is extremely wobbly and easy to discern the errors and inconsistency in.


It was not just the Gentile Christians converted from paganism who regarded Jesus as Divine.

It was the Pagan Christians who conveyed that Narrative. Paul while being a Jew never met Jesus; so his testimony is moot as far as evidence goes. In case you were alluding to Paulian doctrine.

also regarded Jesus as Divine. For example, the Jewish apostle Thomas, when he saw the resurrected Jesus, addressed Him as "My Lord and my God!" (John 20).

Eh this verse is actually rather inconclusive; the Exclaimation Mark at the end appears to be indicating that author of this passage was not proclaiming or addressing Jesus as God but rather indicating that Thomas was exciting much the same way people say "Oh my God!" they would say "my Lord and My God"! This doesn't verify that there is belief in the divinity of Jesus. Supplementary material gives evidence that the author was not indicating that Thomas believes he was God.

Namely this verse:
"Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples,which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ [John 20:30"

As we all know in Judaic Eschatology; the Messiah is supposed to be a man; they didn't believe he was God; so thus if they believed he was God, the author would have indicated that this narration shows Jesus was God, not Jesus was the Messiah.




The apostle Paul, a self-described "Hebrew of the Hebrews" who at first misunderstood our holy faith and persecuted Christians, called the Messiah "our great God and Savior" (Titus 3). Long before our Lord was born of the virgin Mary, the Old Testament prophecies had foretold that the Messiah would be Divine (Psalm 2, for example.)

Already addressed the faultiness of Pauline doctrine; Paul's encounter with Christianity was from Pagan Converts primarily; the claim of the Paul having super natural awareness contact with Jesus is a somewhat nebulous assertion as it cannot be examined for veracity; thus cannot be evidence. It would be thus reasonable to surmise that Paul converted to the Pagan's interpretation of Christianity



randolph85 & RTR,
--It's odd that you find your hypothetical monk so praiseworthy. According to our faith, suicide is the unauthorized taking of a life, and therefore demonic like any other murder.
Anyway, the Messiah not only endured the Cross courageously as foretold, He also raised Himself from the dead. Now that's mastery over the flesh!


I don't hold him "praise worthy"; I never claimed he is worthy of praise; but rather the example of Quan Duc demonstrates that a Human being that we have had direct evidence; was able to surpass the feebleness of a being that the Christians deem to be divine. Under the same notion; the claim that Jesus was God but allowed himself to be killed is suicide; it's called Assisted Suicide; the narrative indicates he was deliberately trying to die to serve this alleged purpose to fulfill; thus by your own claims if suicide is demonic; this would implicate that the narration indicates a demonic character.

TNo matter how was cut this this is merely an example of the faultiness of Christian Dogma.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Zirey; in case you're still in doubt


Thch Quảng Đức (English pronunciation: i/ˌtɪtʃ ˌkwɒŋ ˈdʊk/ tich kwong duuk; 釋廣德; 1897 11 June 1963, born Lm Văn Tức), was a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist monk who burned himself to death at a busy Saigon road intersection on 11 June 1963. Đức was protesting the persecution of Buddhists by South Vietnam's Roman Catholic government led by Ng Đnh Diệm. Photos of his self-immolation were circulated widely across the world and brought attention to the policies of the Diệm regime. Malcolm Browne won a Pulitzer Prize for his renowned photograph of the monk's death. After his death, his body was re-cremated, but his heart remained intact.

Zirey
04-14-2012, 01:09 PM
Gents,
Thanks for your replies. Al Hanif is right. It is hard to leave disagreeable statements alone, but when we start repeating ourselves, it is time to move on.

Dear Faye,
I love your wit and broad-mindedness. You raise a good point. If Jesus were only a messenger, the overemphasis and adoration would certainly be unwarranted. We believe, however, that He was more than a prophet. In fact, one of His names in the Scriptures is "the Word of God." In a real sense, He was not only a messenger but also the message itself, the Messiah foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I agree with your delight in God's creation. There is much to bask in since it reflects His glory, in spite of man's wrongdoings. But God Himself is even better still. There is no need to hide from Him either by reducing religion to a number of arbitrary rules or by equating Him with His creation. You can know the love God has for you personally in Jesus Christ. He will delight in you back!

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 03:30 PM
Well Zirey;; I don't disagree with that, but it seems to me you don't present new arguments but just find different ways to restate the same thing. You keep alleging we misunderstand your notions regarding the divinity of Jesus and his Mortality. I understand what you're saying; what I am saying is when we break all of that down, and take it to it's actual basic implications; it just doesn't add up.

I mean honestly; without any hostility; your responses still do not respond to most of what I said; either because you very superficially glossed over them or simply did not grasp the distinction I have made as in the case regarding the characteristic analysis between human and the divine vs. the spirit and the body. What I stressed there is that they are not just different but negations of the other. Tall and short are not just different but "negating" this is the stage that divine and human correspond to; Spirit and Body are like Tall and Thin; both different but not negating.


Now in regards to what you're saying to Faye I don't want to intercede in your discourses with others more than I have already; But there are a variety of alternately valid explanations of "Word of God" when we consider the usage of such expressions in Semitic language. It's based on these clues that it appears that what Christianity as we know it today was more of a Pagan European interpretation of Messianic Judaism. Hence why things like "Son of God"; which in Hebrew traditions meant something totally different. Became "Son of God" in the way Zeus or Apollo may have had begotten children.

faye
04-14-2012, 06:07 PM
how is the creation of the creator from godself, contrary to god?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 06:38 PM
I agree with your delight in God's creation. There is much to bask in since it reflects His glory, in spite of man's wrongdoings. But God Himself is even better still. There is no need to hide from Him either by reducing religion to a number of arbitrary rules or by equating Him with His creation. You can know the love God has for you personally in Jesus Christ. He will delight in you back!


If you believe that; then why not just go to God directly; we don't need to believe in the standard Christian narrative about Jesus to do that. I know your natural counter reply will be to claim that God himself made Jesus the "doorway" to him; but you don't actualy know this as bonafide truth; this is just a narrative dictated to you and conditioned to the point where it appears as reality in your psyche.


Arbitrary rules are certainly a waste of time; but consider that God created an entire universe of Laws and Principles that Govern it; the rules and principles more intricate than anything humans have had to follow. It only makes sense that humans being connected to the Universe on every possible level would have laws that that reflect that. in Islam the Laws we follow are extensions of universal principles; Jesus' battle with the Legalistic cartel of the Pharasees wasn't because they had rules and laws; but because they did not understand and lost the true purpose behind these Laws; hence he said "I have come not to remove one letter of the Law ....but to fulfill it". Not to abandon or abolish the Law; but restore it to it's true aims and objectives. This is the Theory behind Islam as well.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 06:40 PM
@Faye because God is uncreated.

faye
04-14-2012, 06:49 PM
we all might just be a figment of our own imagination, which is also the imagination of the uncreated GREAT MIND, lol.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 08:16 PM
well there you go

faye
04-14-2012, 08:41 PM
i found al-ghazali's 'niche of lights' online, last night and he uses the word aspect (wajh) seemingly in the same context as i was using it. is that the correct translation from arabic, do you think?
beautiful thinking. i would like to read al-ghazalis books instead of reading online.
who do you favour, to explain the muta'zilah view?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 10:46 PM
wajh literally means face,I think the translator as interpolating his own notions into the translation. when we refer to Wajh we're referring to the "dhat" or "essence" of God; it comes from the verse "wa kul shay halik illah wajhu"
( translation :"and everything perishes except his face" ) implying that Wajh is the real existence and everything else doesn't truly exist.

It kind of relate to he Qabbalistic Notion of the " Vast Face" of the Ain Soph

The Mu'tazilah view is that this means that all relational things or "accidents" are not God because they perish but rather God's "applied" power; that's why all things perish but he does not because he is the Necessary Being. This also means that everything perishes as do some of the "relational" attributes; attributes which only become known by way of they relate to objects or accidents/events. The essential attributes; the stuff that represent the absoluteness of allah(swt) are his "Dhat" and that which isn't is not his dhat.

Alchemist
04-14-2012, 11:12 PM
The Mu'tazilah view is that this means that all relational things or "accidents" are not God because they perish but rather God's "applied" power; that's why all things perish but he does not because he is the Necessary Being. This also means that everything perishes as do some of the "relational" attributes; attributes which only become known by way of they relate to objects or accidents/events. The essential attributes; the stuff that represent the absoluteness of allah(swt) are his "Dhat" and that which isn't is not his dhat.

Why is this explanation suppose to be a "Mut'zaliah" view?
Is there another view in Islam that says otherwise?

RevolutionThroughReason
04-14-2012, 11:21 PM
yes actually; the Asharite view which Ghazzali espoused surmised that the attributes of God are coeternal with God.

faye
04-14-2012, 11:28 PM
ok. so accidents means events. i was curious about 'accidents' being used.
i don't view anything as perishing or as an accident. i think what we consider matter/form/reality is a temporary manifestation for one particular life experience, but can be transformed by the creator.
look, here's alchemist. i saw him slowly slinking in to this thread. took a coupla days ;-)

faye
04-14-2012, 11:43 PM
the translation for 'the niche for lights' that i was reading is translated by w.h.t. gairdner.
so much of muslim, pagan and middle eastern myths etc are translated by europeans. people who can misinterpret and project their own beliefs into the works. i have been trying to find these books with muslim translators but unable to, with this one.
it is good that they respected these philosophers, though.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-15-2012, 02:53 AM
That's unfortunately one of the sad realities of our times that Muslims themselves have lost/forgotten/become disaffected from their own intellectual heritage that we rely on external translations. Our own scholarship's reluctance to teach us the reality behind all of this stuff also nurture's the problem

anyways I'm on a tangent.

faye
04-15-2012, 07:34 PM
not many actually do such deep contemplation anymore. look how the guys on here are so dependent upon the photos, videos and uploading quotes, to speak for them. because they can do that, they delude themselves that they ACTUALLY KNOW this knowledge.
the deep contemplation in the days of al-ghazali is extremely admirable as they didn't have all the media to tell them how and what, to think.

Zirey
04-16-2012, 05:30 PM
RTR, Randolph,

It was never my intention to launch a debate or to counter all blasphemy against my cherished beliefs, but to share information here or correct a misconception there. This is why my replies were brief and focused on fewer points than perhaps you would have liked.

As long as our approaches to truth remain fundamentally different, there is not much of a chance, humanly speaking, of our coming to an agreement. Christians believe that finite, fallible, human reason is subordinate to God's Word. That is why we are open to mysteries that surpass human reason. God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, but as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are His thoughts higher than ours.

Alchemist
04-17-2012, 12:06 AM
yes actually; the Asharite view which Ghazzali espoused surmised that the attributes of God are coeternal with God.

You just said that the attributes of God are coeternal with God:

The essential attributes; the stuff that represent the absoluteness of allah(swt) are his "Dhat" and that which isn't is not his dhat....

when we refer to Wajh we're referring to the "dhat" or "essence" of God; it comes from the verse "wa kul shay halik illah wajhu"
( translation :"and everything perishes except his face" ) implying that Wajh is the real existence and everything else doesn't truly exist

Please elaborate.

Maybe my english is no good.

RevolutionThroughReason
04-19-2012, 09:25 AM
You just said that the attributes of God are coeternal with God:



Please elaborate.

Maybe my english is no good.

well there are a distinction between the essential attributes, meaning characteristics of the Absoluteness of God (eternal, self sufficient, infinitely existing) etc etc) vs. the Relational Attributes (creator, protector, destroyer etc etc); you're right I should have clarified what I meant, my apologies.

faye
04-23-2012, 04:26 AM
i wondered what the import was about jesus as god, and it finally came to me. saying that jesus is god, from the religious point of view (not mine) is like a competative thing that their jesus is more better than your mohammad.
is that what this was about?