View Full Version : Toramana appreciation thread


Toramana
02-03-2011, 10:11 PM
Here you meet great Pashtun nationalist Toramana...lover of mountains, nature, and old songs...and a counter to ScimtreEdge, unknownking (sorry unknownprince), and a political confronter to Barakzai Abdali...disliked by many but liked by many more...:smile1:

Admin Khan
02-03-2011, 10:16 PM
I have extracted a lot of knowledge from your posts. Especially your encounters with BarakzaiAbdali. It's interesting to read your discussions with him and ScimitorXEdge because here you have these two opposite views and both are equally trying their best to defend their stance and perspective.

Keep up your contributions Toramana. Opposition is normal.

IamDZJ
02-03-2011, 10:23 PM
here is something that i have noticed about you from the distance that i keep from everyone in here....you are one of the very few individuals in here who seems to understand the importance of standing apart from assembles. very few have the confidence of doing that. i don't know your reasons for doing that but it is a quality i admire in people.

Shehbaz Khan
02-03-2011, 10:31 PM
No I don't like you :tongue:

Ma pasi kho ta har wakht topak pa laas garzi :p Hagha wayi 'Pichlay janam ka kuch dena hay kya?' :fighting:

Keep posting .. ::rolleyes:: Your posts are useful !!

BarakzaiAbdali
02-03-2011, 10:32 PM
Here you meet great Pashtun nationalist Toramana...lover of mountains, nature, and old song...and a counter to ScimtreEdge, unknownking (sorry unknownprince), and a political confronter to Barakzai Abdali...disliked by many but liked by many more...:smile1:

This Barakzai you speak of actually likes you quiet a bit. Brothers are allowed to joust now and then are they not? kam shantaay zwind ba wee ka pa jang kay daay neshoo wakhth pa wakhth? After all, our hearts are only at peace when we are at war brother. You sharpen the knife of my mind whilst I do the same for you.

Toramana
02-03-2011, 10:35 PM
daira manana, da tolo Admin Khan, DaZahroJam, Shabazai, Barakzai, etc...

But Bacha thaso kho pa rishcha shwai...maa kho hasai gap lagawoo...ma wai chai da khalak lag okhandawooo....hahaha

کیش
02-03-2011, 11:18 PM
I disagree with 90% of your post. But, keep it up!!!

Your def appreciated.

Shehbaz Khan
02-03-2011, 11:51 PM
^ Tum bhi :P

Wrayun
02-04-2011, 08:02 PM
Toramana is an irreplaceable asset to Pukhtoon interests. His opponents are lucky, it seems that old age ..j/k.. has worn him out. Otherwise he can be extremely challenging, as if not already.

Admin Khan
02-05-2011, 12:01 PM
I really like how members are creating their own 'appreciation' threads. Randolph started this trend, haha.

Master Khan
02-05-2011, 02:01 PM
I disagree with you like 90.99% of time because of your anti Islamic comments and your support for US and NATO.
you said you supports pashtuns etc etc but yet you support US And NATO.

Alchemist
02-05-2011, 02:11 PM
Vain-glorious men are the scorn of the wise, the admiration of fools, the idols of paradise, and the slaves of their own vaunts

Master Khan
02-05-2011, 02:13 PM
In Soviet Russia, Jokes on you!

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 02:16 PM
jang nakhunak jang nakhunak jang nakhunak....:hmm:

Shehbaz Khan
02-05-2011, 02:23 PM
Admina, I guess it was luffy who started this trend :O

pir_Rokhan
02-05-2011, 02:34 PM
Toramana is gem of a person who has expertise in Computer science [being his profession] as well as Politics at the same time and has a passion for culture, sociology, and anthropology. In the freedom movement of Pakhtuns, I see him in the leading row.

ScimitarXEdge
02-05-2011, 04:56 PM
It says a lot about someone that they need to create their own "appreciation" thread because others do not/have not seen the merits of their ideas or personality.

I find the contents within the first either pure comedy, self deceit or arrogant posturing. The Pashtun Nationalist who on one hand pretends to stand for the ethnic group but advocates the cultural mores of Imperialists to rule over "his people". Bizzare, but we can see what this person is a Trojan Horse for. On that note, his arguments are paradoxical to say the least. He's against the rule of Islaam for being by some absurd notion a vehicle for another culture's intrusion upon Pashtuns which are products of conditions alien to Pashtuns, but cow tows and advocates Imperial models of cultural fabric and ideals to be imposed on Pashtuns, despite being a product of a habitat and conditions alien to Pashtuns. That's just the tip of the iceberg as they say.

I understand that many of his admirers are young or not familiar with the constructs of logical debate. How many standard logical fallacies Toramana employs makes you/us/myself wonder if this person actually has a competent academic education. He's a good Search Engine user and that's all, if that.

He's the snake oil salesman of the forum. Playing the heart strings of Nationalism, but fighting for Europeans.

Alchemist
02-05-2011, 05:26 PM
^ His biggest delusion is that he is on par with you and barakzai because he invented some new silly terminologies like camelism.

Catya Sher
02-05-2011, 05:50 PM
Good comments Scimitar, Alchemist, Master Khan, anyone else.

I say we should ask Toramana, as long he is in The Spotlight,
to shed a little light on himself
Why do we know nothing at all about him, at least many of us ?

Is "camelism" - I am writing in camel colored ink - meant to mean
Kemalism ? If so he is probably a spiritual descendant of those who pushed a rough Westernizing agenda on religious Turkey.

By the way : I am still waiting for Toramana to say his prayers as promised months ago...!

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 05:58 PM
It says a lot about someone that they need to create their own "appreciation" thread because others do not/have not seen the merits of their ideas or personality.

I find the contents within the first either pure comedy, self deceit or arrogant posturing. The Pashtun Nationalist who on one hand pretends to stand for the ethnic group but advocates the cultural mores of Imperialists to rule over "his people". Bizzare, but we can see what this person is a Trojan Horse for. On that note, his arguments are paradoxical to say the least. He's against the rule of Islaam for being by some absurd notion a vehicle for another culture's intrusion upon Pashtuns which are products of conditions alien to Pashtuns, but cow tows and advocates Imperial models of cultural fabric and ideals to be imposed on Pashtuns, despite being a product of a habitat and conditions alien to Pashtuns. That's just the tip of the iceberg as they say.

I understand that many of his admirers are young or not familiar with the constructs of logical debate. How many standard logical fallacies Toramana employs makes you/us/myself wonder if this person actually has a competent academic education. He's a good Search Engine user and that's all, if that.

He's the snake oil salesman of the forum. Playing the heart strings of Nationalism, but fighting for Europeans.

I have many family members that are like Toramana. I know he seems cold and prickly on the outside, and one should certainly not cede an inch when it comes to ethical debates, but I think his true nature is probably benign.

So this family member of mine is in Afghan Mellat. He constantly criticizes Hazrat Umar bin Al Khattab (we are sunni mind you) and refers to him as the predecessor for Anwar Al Awlaki and also refers to an incident where Umar imposed a capital punishment as proof of his hardline views. I will note that I do not think that Awlaki is that far off at all in his commentary on imperialism. After looking into the incident I found that Umar actually imposed what he did as a nominal measure that involved wrapping the individual in a carpet so that he would only recieve "symbolic blows." ... This family member quieted down when I showed him the hadith reference and now knows that I wont bite when he says inflammatory things, but that I will softly correct him with evidence.

Interestingly enough, on the other side of the border I have a relative or two that are hardline nationalists of the same brand. Other family members of mine condemn these folks and get emotional when they hear these guys say what they do. They tested me out as they knew my religious views and I generally just debated them with evidence but did not get personal with them. As such, they and I have developed a good relationship and they actually see the Islamist Pashtuns that admire Ahmad Shah etc in a different light now. They still do not ideologically agree, but they no longer advocate wholesale bombing.

So its the same with Toramana. I do not sense a hatred of us from him as I do from folks like Parsiwaan etc. He is generally just an ideologue and likes to argue. So the best thing is to show him izaat per his age (I think there is a 5 year or so difference between us) and just do as Islam says and speak truth as often as we can. That being said, equal blows intellectually are required when he speaks what I believe is untruth or spreads propaganda. I off course will not cease to debate him when I hear views of his that I think have contrary evidence.

I think if we all met, you would see that probably we would all get along, pray in the same line, and like any Pashtun get together there would be some sports and politics that get us all emotional. Everyone would ask everyone elses pardon at the end of the day etc.

Now, on the other hand, the dangerous folks like Asfandayaar, Hekmet Karzai, Ahady and propaganda agents like Taj Andersen have actually bloody hands and are in no way innocent. I think you would agree that a computer scientist like Toramana, is about as harmless as the rest of us.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 06:00 PM
^ His biggest delusion is that he is on par with you and barakzai because he invented some new silly terminologies like camelism.

Thank you for your confidence wrorre, I feel that you are far more enlightened when it comes to ilm of the deen than I am and look forward to learning much from both you and Edge. I am just an amateur that reads a lot.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 06:48 PM
Good comments Scimitar, Alchemist, Master Khan, anyone else.

I say we should ask Toramana, as long he is in The Spotlight,
to shed a little light on himself
Why do we know nothing at all about him, at least many of us ?

Is "camelism" - I am writing in camel colored ink - meant to mean
Kemalism ? If so he is probably a spiritual descendant of those who pushed a rough Westernizing agenda on religious Turkey.

By the way : I am still waiting for Toramana to say his prayers as promised months ago...!


We seem to know a reasonable amount from his writing. He appears to be a Yusufzai Swaati in his mid 30s. Unmarried right now, but I keep telling him its about time per sunnah and Pashtunwali. He seems to prefer his cause celebre as opposed to a wife. The guess on my part is that he is a feudal/khanate family per the circles he runs in. He is studying for his advanced degree in Comp Sci in Canada where he retains activity in the nationalist movement there. He likely knows folks like Salma Ataullah Jan, Inayat Khan Kakar, javed Akhtaar, Jahan Zeb Khan and various other figures in the arm of the Canadian ANP/Afghan Mellat movement.

A portion of his anger towards the Islamists like Mullah Fazlullah is likely derived from a combination of him being upset about the situation in Buner and the other local areas. I would assume this affects his family and land (his degree of obstinance may derive from actual deaths in the family during this turbulent time in Swat). Where we disagree is as to what allowed Sufi Muhammad to be so effective in the first place... I tend to think per reading and my very little familiarity with the region, that the feudal contrivances and injustices of Afzal Khan Lala, the Mianguls, and the other Khans led to the popularity of the local Taliban movement. Meritocracy was subverted by these folks. The other sad thing that followed the army incursion as requested by Miangul Jehanzab (subsequently killed in badal by the Taliban) is that many an innocent Swaati was murdered by the Pak army during their requested incursion. So the feudals basically screwed over the Pashtuns of Swaat three times: before the Taliban leading to their rise, during their rule by requesting the army incursion and drone attacks, and currently with the re-establishment of their rule and continued subversion of meritocracy.

Catya Sher
02-05-2011, 06:52 PM
I think Alchemist is astute spiritually. Scimitar somehow sometimes misses things on the spiritual wavelength; he's more of a talker.

I was going to write earlier, too, that Toramana is probably a nice guy in person, with a soft demeanor.

The key is prayers: if he would say prayers, the snarls in his thinking would be alleviated.
Scimitar is trying by means of words, and is highly effective.

However, this problem of imperfect clarity on the part of Toramana could be resolved thereby.
He knows it and he's just resisting because like everyone, he doesn't want to
get out of his old mold and CHANGE.

We on this forum who feel like this encourage him to try out his prayers, see what happens !
There's not anything to lose is there?!

Catya Khatun

[ajoke bec. he was convinced i was a Turkish Sultana until quite recently]

Catya Sher
02-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Thanks, BarakzaiAbdali :

That explains A LOT about this mysterious character.
If he thought I was Turkish, I thought he was some sort of medical
profession technician from your earlier remarks, and previously, I thought he was a teacher in school.
But at what level, I had no idea.
That clarifies this part as well as the possible source of his deeply entrenched animosities toward Islam in general and the YouKnowWhos in particular !

Maybe a nice pious wife WOULD help his life to be in better balance - he seems
too distressed ALL the time about politics.
I pray Toramana will heed your good advice on this point !

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 07:11 PM
instead of hogging on each others pride, i suggest each and every single one of you focus and reflect on that of your own.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 07:25 PM
instead of hogging on each others pride, i suggest each and every single one of you focus and reflect on that of your own.

You need Zoloft. It might improve the anger management component to your depression.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 07:28 PM
instead of hogging on each others pride, i suggest each and every single one of you focus and reflect on that of your own.

Btw, since you love references, here is one:

"SSRIs are extremely useful in anger management when a low frustration tolerance is leading to frequent eruptions."

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/50241 (http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/50241)

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 07:28 PM
You need Zoloft. It might improve the anger management component to your depression.
though the thought of hammering a nail on your forehead would do me much better. :smile1:

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 07:32 PM
though the thought of hammering a nail on your forehead would do me much better. :smile1:

Its OK, we can initiate you at a higher dose. 25 mg --> 50 mg. You may also have some issues with increased testosterone levels which may explain the issues with why you are a little more muscularly endowed and able to hammer nails than the average female. Help with that will cost you a bit.

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 07:45 PM
Its OK, we can initiate you at a higher dose. 25 mg --> 50 mg. You may also have some issues with increased testosterone levels which may explain the issues with why you are a little more muscularly endowed and able to hammer nails than the average female. Help with that will cost you a bit.

here is you clown costume....you may start entertaining me now...of course, attaining my attention has been proved to be a difficult task...don't feel too bad for yourself if i walk away as if i don't give a s**t.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 07:57 PM
here is you clown costume....you may start entertaining me now...of course, attaining my attention has been proved to be a difficult task...don't feel too bad for yourself if i walk away as if i don't give a s**t.

So you say, yet you take the classic "walk of shame back" toward my commentary yet again.

However, women with male pattern baldness and acne accompanied by 'roid rage secondary to steroid usually have great difficulty keeping the attention of most men.

So please, redirect your walk of shame back towards your own message board

Regarding giving a s**t, I recommend Colace for the constipation.

Abeille
02-05-2011, 07:58 PM
Do you think by proclaiming that you "don't give a s**t" makes you look like you are not desperate?

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 08:10 PM
So you say, yet you take the classic "walk of shame back" toward my commentary yet again.

However, women with male pattern baldness and acne accompanied by 'roid rage secondary to steroid usually have great difficulty keeping the attention of most men.

So please, redirect your walk of shame back towards your own message board

Regarding giving a s**t, I recommend Colace for the constipation.

dear uncle baldman
who are you to define how a man or a woman should be characterized. or how someone should behave or respond to a thoughtless concept of a confrontation coming their way regarding their health condition. you are a doctor, no? is this what they teach you in med school?
well if constipation is the excuse and half of the population of the world manages to go by with it, then i am sure i will be just as fine.
i simply asked the members involved in this thread to stop being rude to each other. that makes me angry and depressed??
remember, respect is a two way street.
eff whatever **** you got your degrees on in the name of education. good night.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 08:33 PM
dear uncle baldman
who are you to define how a man or a woman should be characterized. or how someone should behave or respond to a thoughtless concept of a confrontation coming their way regarding their health condition. you are a doctor, no? is this what they teach you in med school?
well if constipation is the excuse and half of the population of the world manages to go by with it, then i am sure i will be just as fine.
i simply asked the members involved in this thread to stop being rude to each other. that makes me angry and depressed??
remember, respect is a two way street.
eff whatever **** you got your degrees on in the name of education. good night.


Ah back again for yet another walk of shame no? How many times do you need to get figuratively kicked out of bed before you learn that I have no interest in you intellectually? Besides, I'm married to a woman and will not take you as a second wife no matter how much you beg. Im just a one woman type of guy compadre!
Regarding balding: generally, healthy women do not bald unless there is a hormonal issue, autoimmune issue, or the genes for balding patterns are present in the right way. So I think most people would tell a woman with premature balding to see a doctor and define that as not normal for being a female. Sorry I touched a nerve as you are likely experiencing this issue in real life.
Constipation: I am surprised you would like to divulge here your issue with this. Please try a high fiber diet and see your own primary medical doctor.
Regarding rudeness: We all have our own relationships. Toramana, Edge, Alchemist, and I do just fine with eachother and know eachother's style at this point. We do not need you as a referee. Mind your own business.
Regarding education: You stated you failed high school, I would pursue a GED if I were you. That might get you back on track. Then, higher thought processes might not elude you.

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 08:45 PM
Ah back again for yet another walk of shame no? How many times do you need to get figuratively kicked out of bed before you learn that I have no interest in you intellectually? Besides, I'm married to a woman and will not take you as a second wife no matter how much you beg. Im just a one woman type of guy compadre!
Regarding balding: generally, healthy women do not bald unless there is a hormonal issue, autoimmune issue, or the genes for balding patterns are present in the right way. So I think most people would tell a woman with premature balding to see a doctor and define that as not normal for being a female. Sorry I touched a nerve as you are likely experiencing this issue in real life.
Constipation: I am surprised you would like to divulge here your issue with this. Please try a high fiber diet and see your own primary medical doctor.
Regarding rudeness: We all have our own relationships. Toramana, Edge, Alchemist, and I do just fine with eachother and know eachother's style at this point. We do not need you as a referee. Mind your own business.
Regarding education: You stated you failed high school, I would pursue a GED if I were you. That might get you back on track. Then, higher thought processes might not elude you.


o please please pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, take me!
starts pounding on the keyboard furiously***
how could you do this to me?!!
somebody please, gather the shattered pieces of my heart!!
sobbing....
sniff**

seriously...:glare:

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 08:48 PM
wrora your wife would make women on here jealous and envious shes too pretty mashallah , and your a excellent heart speacialist and you have all your hair and you look like a true kandahrian mashallah .

Thanks Khoraay,

No worries, she's just some angry kid and decided to let her and Catya Sher's beef with eachother spill over and had to comment on something that had nothing to do with her. Toramana and Catya talk to eachother just fine. Im sure she is going to follow up with some of her usual trash about bashing in someone's head or ripping out someone's hair or crucifying someone's grandma. Its all sadistic stuff.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 08:51 PM
o please please pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, take me!
starts pounding on the keyboard furiously***
how could you do this to me?!!
somebody please, gather the shattered pieces of my heart!!
sobbing....
sniff**

seriously...:glare:


Get ahold of yourself woman. You're like a snorting horse in heat and I'm like the poor stallion that just doesn't want what you're offering. Go beat up Unknownprince some more or something. Im tired of this back and forth. All I've learned from you thus far is cruel torture techniques that involve putting nails in people's craniums and hitting heads with hammers. For God sakes, go get some help or something.

شمله ور خراساني
02-05-2011, 09:03 PM
BarakzaiAbdali



که ځان ته پښتون وایی نو بیا ولې ښځو سره جګره کوې؟

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 09:06 PM
boooooooOOOooooo:whistling:

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:08 PM
BarakzaiAbdali



که ځان ته پښتون وایی نو بیا ولې ښځو سره جګره کوې؟

Brother, Im just an elder rebuking her. We were discussing just fine and she threw, and continues to throw her insults in. It might have been directed at Catya, but even Catya is her elder. If she is a Pashtun then she also should know not to throw stupid comments our way when we have said nothing to her. There is not a single thing in Pashtunwali that says a man cannot answer a beghairath person and put them in their place. If she chooses to talk crookedly and insult people, then she is going to continue to get the same verbal beat down again and again from me without any shame on my part.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:12 PM
boooooooOOOooooo:whistling:




Its not going to work.

شمله ور خراساني
02-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Brother, Im just an elder rebuking her. We were discussing just fine and she threw, and continues to throw her insults in. It might have been directed at Catya, but even Catya is her elder. If she is a Pashtun then she also should know not to throw stupid comments our way when we have said nothing to her. There is not a single thing in Pashtunwali that says a man cannot answer a beghairath person and put them in their place. If she chooses to talk crookedly and insult people, then she is going to continue to get the same verbal beat down again and again from me without any shame on my part.


I read both, yours and her comments. She has an excuse. What is your excuse?

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 09:21 PM
this is an appreciation thread. instead of making someone feel good, you guys gathered here to throw insult at toranmana. if you didn't have anything good to say about him, you could have just not commented at all. i didn't address anyone when i said what i said in my second post in this thread. you assumed that.. you, abdali, started jumping around as if you have been given the opportunity of a life time to insult me of or put me in my "place". it doesn't really bother me. i m glad you fulfilled whoever's wish it was you were fulfilling.
i enjoy making people act like the idiots they are on the other sides of the mask behind which they hide..

Wrayun
02-05-2011, 09:22 PM
Good comments Scimitar, Alchemist, Master Khan, anyone else.

I say we should ask Toramana, as long he is in The Spotlight,
to shed a little light on himself
Why do we know nothing at all about him, at least many of us ?

Is "camelism" - I am writing in camel colored ink - meant to mean
Kemalism ? If so he is probably a spiritual descendant of those who pushed a rough Westernizing agenda on religious Turkey.

By the way : I am still waiting for Toramana to say his prayers as promised months ago...!


Why don't you tell us who you are and what are your objectives as a non-Pukhtoon, non-Muslim, usually catering to the religiously inclined, on this platform? Don't give the usual circular argument.

If you won't answer these, then, at least, have the courtesy, not to question Pukhtoons on a Pukhtoon platform and their motives. You are an outsider, a guest, remain so. We Pukhtoons have very little tolerance for outsiders interfering in our affairs. We have a saying, when it comes to our own, that we will deal with our own but won't let outsiders point at them.

Kindly, tell us are you a Muslim? Are you a Pukhtoon? What is your business here? Why are you always supporting or inclined towards those subjects/members that are religiously motivated.

I'm not an atheist, nor am I from the Toramana bunch. I ask you this as Pukhtoon and a Muslim.

Don't take it personal. The thing is that for far too long outsiders, have pitched us against each other. And you come off as such an outsider.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:23 PM
I read both, yours and her comments. She has an excuse. What is your excuse?

Excuse for what Sir? I make no excuses for anything nor do I ever need one. Catya made her own comments as she had on other threads and she interrupted with some assinine comments towards her. Nothing in her posts were rude at all.

For that matter, how does one expect to correct rudeness with their own rude behavior regarding threatening folks with head crushing, crucifixion, and idiotic one liners that reek of immaturity. I corrected her stupidity and sufficiently neutralized her and am proud of this.

If you are looking for an apology for this, trust me, no one will get one.

Toramana
02-05-2011, 09:23 PM
Hi, my purpose in posting this thread was just fun...However, I really thank those who have mentioned me in good words for their courtesy...also those who are skeptical of my views and intentions...

Anyhow, hahaha I don't deserve this publicity...:smile1:

شمله ور خراساني
02-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Excuse for what Sir? I make no excuses for anything nor do I ever need one. Catya made her own comments as she had on other threads and she interrupted with some assinine comments towards her. Nothing in her posts were rude at all.

For that matter, how does one expect to correct rudeness with their own rude behavior regarding threatening folks with head crushing, crucifixion, and idiotic one liners that reek of immaturity. I corrected her stupidity and sufficiently neutralized her and am proud of this.

If you are looking for an apology for this, trust me, no one will get one.

I think you have gone too far in your arguing with her.

If you appeal on Pashto for having the right to insult people back after being insulted, then you have abused this right. Since you've gone too far.

ANd she is right. If you dont like Toraman, then dont visit this thread.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:28 PM
this is an appreciation thread. instead of making someone feel good, you guys gathered here to throw insult at toranmana. if you didn't have anything good to say about him, you could have just not commented at all. i didn't address anyone when i said what i said in my second post in this thread. you assumed that.. you, abdali, started jumping around as if you have been given the opportunity of a life time to insult me of or put me in my "place". it doesn't really bother me. i m glad you fulfilled whoever's wish it was you were fulfilling.
i enjoy making people act like the idiots they are on the other sides of the mask behind which they hide..


Hmm, Toramana named two people in his initial post, I was one of them. I answered him and we both appear to be just fine with eachother. Neither one of us took it as insult. Furthermore, all of my posts show appreciation for him. Also, I answered Catya in regard to Toramana and defended why he feels the way he does.

However, your illiteracy, going back to that failing out of high school thing only shows that we may need to get you hooked on phonix.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:30 PM
I think you have gone too far in your arguing with her.

If you appeal on Pashto for having the right to insult people back after being insulted, then you have abused this right. Since you've gone too far.

ANd she is right. If you dont like Toraman, then dont visit this thread.

As I noted, I was mentioned in the original post. Did you happen to read it? I have no qualm with Toramana and if you yourself were a just person you would look at evidence, read through each of the prior posts, and not utilize emotion. Read each and every one of my posts here. They are all in favor of Mr. Mana not against him.

Regarding going to far. Hardly, I have not gone far enough.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:33 PM
I think you have gone too far in your arguing with her.

If you appeal on Pashto for having the right to insult people back after being insulted, then you have abused this right. Since you've gone too far.

ANd she is right. If you dont like Toraman, then dont visit this thread.

You should read the post in answer to Mr. Edge, where I note that we ought to give Toramana the izzaat of an elder. How is that insulting? As I stated, do not jump to conclusions without reading the posts, that is injustice.

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 09:34 PM
Hmm, Toramana named two people in his initial post, I was one of them. I answered him and we both appear to be just fine with eachother. Neither one of us took it as insult. Furthermore, all of my posts show appreciation for him. Also, I answered Catya in regard to Toramana and defended why he feels the way he does.

However, your illiteracy, going back to that failing out of high school thing only shows that we may need to get you hooked on phonix.

so idiot, who did i name in my post that you went and acted like a moron for no reason??

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:35 PM
Hi, my purpose in posting this thread was just fun...However, I really thank those who have mentioned me in good words for their courtesy...also those who are skeptical of my views and intentions...

Anyhow, hahaha I don't deserve this publicity...:smile1:

Your celebrity is causing confusion! Somehow you have all the people that traditionally opposed you fighting over you.

شمله ور خراساني
02-05-2011, 09:37 PM
You should read the post in answer to Mr. Edge, where I note that we ought to give Toramana the izzaat of an elder. How is that insulting? As I stated, do not jump to conclusions without reading the posts, that is injustice.
Oh believe me I've been reading this thread.

It seems I was wrong about you. You are a very argue-some person.

Take this as a naseeha: if you feel that someone is insulting you, then do not exceed limits. This is based on a hadith from rasul allah sal allahu alayhi wasalam.

I am not interesting in any of your fruther replies in your defence. Take my advice, or reject it. I have nothing more to say.

Catya Sher
02-05-2011, 09:37 PM
Keep up the good work, Barakzai !!!
You are the only person here who can handle this awful person.

Wrayun,
I have written over a thousand posts.
If you were not interested to read them at the time, then stop accusing me.

I would prefer you tell me WHY YOU are full of hatred for me ?
I have never said a word directly to you, either positive or negative.
Sorry but the problem lies with you.

Sorry Toramana - dizzyj loves nothing else but to wreck anybody's happiness or ability to have a peaceful discussion.
I am on the verge of leaving this stie
due to HER principally.
together with the fact that NO one will stand up to confront this fiend who speaks like a demoness. Except so far, BarakzaiAbdali.


It says to me that there's something seriously wrong with the people here that they have so little ability to see how cruel she is .


I have better things to do with my time.

I have never had any problem with Toramana.
Extreme disagreements in ideas are different from these dreadful personal attacks, as was pointed out.
I have no animosity for him.

Toramana
02-05-2011, 09:38 PM
Hi DaZahroJam, Kudos (sorry for spelling) to you...You have got a caring heart ...thanks...

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:38 PM
so idiot, who did i name in my post that you went and acted like a moron for no reason??

Well darling, since you appear to have a short term memory issue, below is your quote. So please, learn to read so that I do not have to continue to embarass you this way. This is what we call a reference... you know, those things you hate? This reference is you, talking down to pretty much every prior poster:

instead of hogging on each others pride, i suggest each and every single one of you focus and reflect on that of your own.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:40 PM
Oh believe me I've been reading this thread.

It seems I was wrong about you. You are a very argue-some person.

Take this as a naseeha: if you feel that someone is insulting you, then do not exceed limits. This is based on a hadith from rasul allah sal allahu alayhi wasalam.

I am not interesting in any of your fruther replies in your defence. Take my advice, or reject it. I have nothing more to say.

Thank you very much, as I have not exceeded limits, but your non evidence based assessment has. For each answer, I will provide an equal and opposite one as I see fit.

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 09:41 PM
Well darling, since you appear to have a short term memory issue, below is your quote. So please, learn to read so that I do not have to continue to embarass you this way. This is what we call a reference... you know, those things you hate? This reference is you, talking down to pretty much every prior poster:

instead of hogging on each others pride, i suggest each and every single one of you focus and reflect on that of your own.


read the full sentence
if you were not hogging on each other's pride then you shouldn't have felt offended.

Toramana
02-05-2011, 09:43 PM
Barakzai, one thing I can say for sure ... Despite my skirmishes with you don't dislike me neither does unknownprince...About Edge, I am 50-50 ...but about Alchemist, I am sure he dislikes me...Hahaha

But anyhow, Barakzai, thanks a lot wrora...May be someday we see a Pashtun nation united and in peace...

Abeille
02-05-2011, 09:46 PM
This is so interesting to watch. DJZ is one feisty biatch who needs to be institutionalized. hahaah

Toramana
02-05-2011, 09:48 PM
Keep up the good work, Barakzai !!!
You are the only person here who can handle this awful person.

Wrayun,
I have written over a thousand posts.
If you were not interested to read them at the time, then stop accusing me.

I would prefer you tell me WHY YOU are full of hatred for me ?
I have never said a word directly to you, either positive or negative.
Sorry but the problem lies with you.

Sorry Toramana - dizzyj loves nothing else but to wreck anybody's happiness or ability to have a peaceful discussion.
I am on the verge of leaving this stie
due to HER principally.
together with the fact that NO one will stand up to confront this fiend who speaks like a demoness. Except so far, BarakzaiAbdali.


It says to me that there's something seriously wrong with the people here that they have so little ability to see how cruel she is .


I have better things to do with my time.

I have never had any problem with Toramana.
Extreme disagreements in ideas are different from these dreadful personal attacks, as was pointed out.
I have no animosity for him.

Hay, lonely lady, are you still alive? Please, don't leave...these things happen you know...this is a cyberspace you know...and fights get quickly triggered but also quickly forgotten...:smile1:

Wrayun
02-05-2011, 09:49 PM
Wrayun,
I have written over a thousand posts.
If you were not interested to read them at the time, then stop accusing me.

I would prefer you tell me WHY YOU are full of hatred for me ?
I have never said a word directly to you, either positive or negative.
Sorry but the problem lies with you.


I have read your posts, and from them I have deduced little about you. You seem to know the region, our people, and the politics involved, but nothing about why you are so interested and here you are actually engaging in the discourse.

I don't have any hate or animosity towards you, for that I would have to know you first. So, I simply asked you two questions. Just two. Not thousands, simple two questions that you can answer:

Are you Muslim?
Are you Pukhtoon?

Have the decency to answer them. If you won't, don't ask the same of others. That's double-standards. And when I see hypocrisy, I like to point out. It is perfectly fine if you do not wish to disclose information about you, just don't ask others to do what you wont do yourself. You seem to do that quite often.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:51 PM
read the full sentence
if you were not hogging on each other's pride then you shouldn't have felt offended.


Ok very well. If that is how you meant it, then that's fine. I read with the emphasis on the second half of the sentence. As you can see Toramana is not offended with me, so all is well. My apologies on my behalf. In the future I will generally avoid reading your words as I think we generally have a personality mismatch and just do not see eye to eye. Take care and best wishes.

IamDZJ
02-05-2011, 09:54 PM
Ok very well. If that is how you meant it, then that's fine. I read with the emphasis on the second half of the sentence. As you can see Toramana is not offended with me, so all is well. My apologies on my behalf. In the future I will generally avoid reading your words as I think we generally have a personality mismatch and just do not see eye to eye. Take care and best wishes.

personality mismatch? i think it's your brain. give it a break every once in a while. and don't you dare comment on my lack of formal education again. take your apology and hang it around your neck. it suits you much better there.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 09:55 PM
Barakzai, one thing I can say for sure ... Despite my skirmishes with you don't dislike me neither does unknownprince...About Edge, I am 50-50 ...but about Alchemist, I am sure he dislikes me...Hahaha

But anyhow, Barakzai, thanks a lot wrora...May be someday we see a Pashtun nation united and in peace...

Out of curiousity though, how right was I in my bio sketch? Recall you had attempted an analysis of myself previously. I wanted to see how on target I was.

Toramana
02-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Out of curiousity though, how right was I in my bio sketch? Recall you had attempted an analysis of myself previously. I wanted to see how on target I was.

There are few errors to be rectified....The first one is, I don't belong to any kind of landed nobility ... neither Miangulan nor Afzal Khan Lala nor any other fuedal family...I am a member of a middle class/ lower middle class family but with good level of education and respected in the area...


Second, I don't have any personal enmity with clergy ... My disagreement with them is ideological and stems from my strong Pashtun nationalist leanings...I consider Mullahs to have (most of the time) played the role of fifth columnists and foreign agents in Pashtun society ...

Also, some names that you have mentioned are unfamiliar for me...

randolph85
02-05-2011, 10:08 PM
whats going on in huurrrr?

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 10:11 PM
There are few errors to be rectified....The first one is, I don't belong to any kind of landed nobility ... neither Miangulan nor Afzal Khan Lala nor any other fuedal family...I am a member of a middle class/ lower middle class family but with good level of education and respected in the area...

Second, I don't have any personal enmity with clergy ... My disagreement with them is ideological and stems from my strong Pashtun nationalist leanings...I consider Mullahs to have (most of the time) played the role of fifth columnists and foreign agents in Pashtun society ...

Most folks develop political/religio-political leanings associated with their parents views according to the American Civics I studied long ago. Would you say that your father/family members are also nationalist and that you picked up some of his/their own viewpoints? Is the area you live in an ANP voting block? What was the crucial juncture at which you decided that Pashtun nationalism superceded a Pakistani identity that others like Luffy and Shahbaz have not shed? I disagree with my own father over some of his ideological leanings, but he says that he developed his viewpoints when he saw that the Pashtuns generally got the raw end of every deal. He also felt that Farsi was forced on him at an early stage and he found it useless compared to English per his career as an engineer. He initially was very Afghan Pan National, but after the war and the subsequent treatment the Pashtuns recieved, he became feriously pro Pashtun on both sides of the border, so this change of his was later in age.

I guess I am just interested in your ideological genesis.

Toramana
02-05-2011, 10:14 PM
Toramana is an irreplaceable asset to Pukhtoon interests. His opponents are lucky, it seems that old age ..j/k.. has worn him out. Otherwise he can be extremely challenging, as if not already.

Hahaha Bacha, that is literally true...After being active on forums for a long time, a kind of fatigue has caught me knoking me down...Thanks Wrayuna Bacha:smile1:

Gulalai
02-05-2011, 10:17 PM
how did an appreciation thread turn into a 5 page argument? lol

Abeille
02-05-2011, 10:19 PM
poisonous psychopaths meddling in things not their cup of tea.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 10:23 PM
how did an appreciation thread turn into a 5 page argument? lol

Beguma, Marray, bas khabaraah khathmaa swaa. I am usually fairly cool 95% of the time, but in the wrong circumstance I go from 0 to 60 in seconds (usually its when one of the junior residents I supervise screws up and I gotta pull a Doctor Cox). My apologies to the readership for the clutter. Ill see if I can delete the spam style posts. I just took the comment the wrong way and went to town.

Toramana
02-05-2011, 10:25 PM
Most folks develop political/religio-political leanings associated with their parents views according to the American Civics I studied long ago. Would you say that your father/family members are also nationalist and that you picked up some of his/their own viewpoints? Is the area you live in an ANP voting block? What was the crucial juncture at which you decided that Pashtun nationalism superceded a Pakistani identity that others like Luffy and Shahbaz have not shed? I disagree with my own father over some of his ideological leanings, but he says that he developed his viewpoints when he saw that the Pashtuns generally got the raw end of every deal. He also felt that Farsi was forced on him at an early stage and he found it useless compared to English per his career as an engineer. He initially was very Afghan Pan National, but after the war and the subsequent treatment the Pashtuns recieved, he became feriously pro Pashtun on both sides of the border, so this change of his was later in age.

I guess I am just interested in your ideological genesis.

ANP had little following in Swat (being a princely state) before the 2008 elections except for Afzal Khan Lala's constituency(also due to his family influence)...ANP, however, had many ideologically committed members in Swat...

I think my inclinations towards Pashtun nationalism developed during my teen years and reached maturity in 1990s...I had no one in my family associated with any Pashtun nationalist struggle in a strong political and ideological sense although there were relatives who were kind of ANP followers...But they didn't influence me...

I can say that I discovered Pashtun nationalism and leftist ideologies on my own through reading and pondering over issues...

Gulalai
02-05-2011, 10:30 PM
Beguma, Marray, bas khabaraah khathmaa swaa. I am usually fairly cool 95% of the time, but in the wrong circumstance I go from 0 to 60 in seconds (usually its when one of the junior residents I supervise screws up and I gotta pull a Doctor Cox). My apologies to the readership for the clutter. Ill see if I can delete the spam style posts. I just took the comment the wrong way and went to town.

kha Wrora, bas kha de che khabara khalasa shwa
ahh no worries, i understand. I can't say it hasn't happened to me before at this forum :shy:
Don't worry about deleting i think that will just cause more confusion. The argument and misunderstandings are over so lets just move on... to appreciating Toramana i guess haha

BarakzaiAbdali
02-05-2011, 10:32 PM
ANP had little following in Swat (being a pricely state) before the 2008 elections except for Afzal Khan Lala's constituency(also due to his family influence)...ANP, however, had many ideologically committed members in Swat...

I think my inclinations towards Pashtun nationalism developed during my teen years and reached maturity in 1990s...I had no one in my family associated with any Pashtun nationalist struggle in a strong political and ideological sense although there were relatives who were kind of ANP followers...But they didn't influence me...

I can say that I discovered Pashtun nationalism and leftist ideologies on my own through reading and pondering over issues...

Was there a trigger? Did you feel discrimination as a Pakistani Pashtun?There are those with leftist leanings, I have met some Khattaks who were children of high ranking officials here at Yale, who were from Pakistan and equally do not like Zia policies, but they are staunchly anti India and not at all inclined to a Pashtunistan.

Does your family agree with your general assessments?

My father once had an argument with a Pakistani diplomat for example, regarding the status of the refugees. He noted that the Pakistani state restricted them to the NWFP province and that the flux of the refugees was limited into the other provinces, burdening NWFP and creating a climate of hostility between Pashtuns per competition and population issues. The diplomat responded that half of Aga Khan medical is filled with Pashtuns...

Toramana
02-05-2011, 10:49 PM
Was there a trigger? Did you feel discrimination as a Pakistani Pashtun?There are those with leftist leanings, I have met some Khattaks who were children of high ranking officials here at Yale, who were from Pakistan and equally do not like Zia policies, but they are staunchly anti India and not at all inclined to a Pashtunistan.

Does your family agree with your general assessments?

My father once had an argument with a Pakistani diplomat for example, regarding the status of the refugees. He noted that the Pakistani state restricted them to the NWFP province and that the flux of the refugees was limited into the other provinces, burdening NWFP and creating a climate of hostility between Pashtuns per competition and population issues. The diplomat responded that half of Aga Khan medical is filled with Pashtuns...

I certainly faced discrimination while in Punjab and Karachi. But you can face discrimination even if you are not east of Indus...Here in the West, I have met many non-Pashtuns who while trying to appear very nice will say something a Pashtun can't bear...


That day I met a Pro-Taleban Punjabi beaurocrat and Islamist hardliner now an immigrant arguing it is ok if there is some suicide bombing in historically violent Khuber Pukhtunkhwa/FATA or Afghanistan if it is in the interests of Pakistan (his argument was that area is used to it)...I had the impression they don't care as long as Pakistan east of Indus is in peace and gets benifitted from the instability/massacre on Pashtun land..

Fahd
02-05-2011, 11:03 PM
dont keep it up man
u have bad views :p lolz jk

PF is glad to have member like u :p
(so we can proof to others that u r wrong :p with the western views :p )
lol

IamDZJ
02-06-2011, 12:23 PM
This is so interesting to watch. DJZ is one feisty biatch who needs to be institutionalized. hahaah

Dear Professor Ms. Nudity is Art, are you ever going to elaborate on that or rather i make a thread about it?

Baygham
02-06-2011, 01:07 PM
It says a lot about someone that they need to create their own "appreciation" thread because others do not/have not seen the merits of their ideas or personality.

I find the contents within the first either pure comedy, self deceit or arrogant posturing. The Pashtun Nationalist who on one hand pretends to stand for the ethnic group but advocates the cultural mores of Imperialists to rule over "his people". Bizzare, but we can see what this person is a Trojan Horse for. On that note, his arguments are paradoxical to say the least. He's against the rule of Islaam for being by some absurd notion a vehicle for another culture's intrusion upon Pashtuns which are products of conditions alien to Pashtuns, but cow tows and advocates Imperial models of cultural fabric and ideals to be imposed on Pashtuns, despite being a product of a habitat and conditions alien to Pashtuns. That's just the tip of the iceberg as they say.

I understand that many of his admirers are young or not familiar with the constructs of logical debate. How many standard logical fallacies Toramana employs makes you/us/myself wonder if this person actually has a competent academic education. He's a good Search Engine user and that's all, if that.

He's the snake oil salesman of the forum. Playing the heart strings of Nationalism, but fighting for Europeans.

Dear ShmuckX or what ever you call you yourself (a pashtoon would have said 'pulwar sooka' ). If your name is not to call attention to yourself than what else is. I read somewhere else that you consider yourself capable of getting a 'nobel' prize which you will subsequently refuse to accept. LOL, if that is not the height of pure comedy, self deceit or arrogant posturing. than what is.

Competent academic education. Is that meant to be an insult. A day in pakhtunkhwa, when it comes to our culture and heritage, is more competent academic education than your lifetime as a rat in some western lab.

Toramana wrora, sorry for us not starting an appreciation thread for you, and sorry to take your joke of starting one yourself seriously as well. In any case keep it up.

This is the third phase of pashtoon idiocy. First it was our elders (we excused them for they did not know better), than the facilitators of vested outsider interests (we will forgive them for they got fooled and were pennyless) but now we have highly educated, prosperous, western born second generation pashtoons bombarding us with idiotic fairytales. Guys my grandmother tells better 'keesai' than you guys ever will. If you are intimidated by the competition at the cutting edge of science and in global commerce and want to run to the sweet comfort of fairy tales, than go visit 'harry potter' in orlando. In pakhtunkhwa/Afghanistan we need proponents of 'amali dunya*' and are up to our noses with wheelers and dealers in 'khyali dunya'.

{Learned the term from an illiterate pashtoon in pakhtunkhwa. Describing a man riding a bike without his hands on the handlebar, he said, "he will come to 'amali dunya' when he hits that truck next to him, now he is in 'khyali dunya'". }

Roshina
02-06-2011, 01:26 PM
Sorry Toramana - dizzyj loves nothing else but to wreck anybody's happiness or ability to have a peaceful discussion.
I am on the verge of leaving this stie
due to HER principally.
together with the fact that NO one will stand up to confront this fiend who speaks like a demoness. Except so far, BarakzaiAbdali.


It says to me that there's something seriously wrong with the people here that they have so little ability to see how cruel she is .


I have better things to do with my time.

Buh bye! :runaround: And prove it that you've got better things to do with your time, sweetums! ;)

Alchemist
02-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Dear ShmuckX or what ever you call you yourself (a pashtoon would have said 'pulwar sooka' ). If your name is not to call attention to yourself than what else is. I read somewhere else that you consider yourself capable of getting a 'nobel' prize which you will subsequently refuse to accept. LOL, if that is not the height of than what is.

Competent academic education. Is that meant to be an insult. A day in pakhtunkhwa, when it comes to our culture and heritage, is more competent academic education than your lifetime as a rat in some western lab.

Toramana wrora, sorry for us not starting an appreciation thread for you, and sorry to take your joke of starting one yourself seriously as well. In any case keep it up.

This is the third phase of pashtoon idiocy. First it was our elders (we excused them for they did not know better), than the facilitators of vested outsider interests (we will forgive them for they got fooled and were pennyless) but now we have highly educated, prosperous, western born second generation pashtoons bombarding us with idiotic fairytales. Guys my grandmother tells better 'keesai' than you guys ever will. If you are intimidated by the competition at the cutting edge of science and in global commerce and want to run to the sweet comfort of fairy tales, than go visit 'harry potter' in orlando. In pakhtunkhwa/Afghanistan we need proponents of 'amali dunya*' and are up to our noses with wheelers and dealers in 'khyali dunya'.

{Learned the term from an illiterate pashtoon in pakhtunkhwa. Describing a man riding a bike without his hands on the handlebar, he said, "he will come to 'amali dunya' when he hits that truck next to him, now he is in 'khyali dunya'". }


Big talk from a guy who finds the remedies for pakhtunkhwa's problems off of CSI:Miami (west).

When a women is raped it should be easy for her to report it with honor and dignity without fear of persecution. This right to be part of a law. And violators punishable by law.
Once reported a case is investigated and if reasonable data suggest that a culprit can be convicted beyond reasonable doubt (witnesses, collaborative evidence, DNA matching etc) then he or she be apprehended and brought to justice and punished in a reasonable humane way. A few years in jail or transfer of his property to the women or such will suffice.

In this system the law is dynamic, new methods of investigation when available are looked at (like DNA analysis) the only underlying essence of the law is to decrease the incidence of rape in a society and mitigate its trauma to its victim.


lol...

Yeah, act like you get your wisdom from the shopkeepers of pakistan then laugh at intellectual pashtuns because they wear the same pants you do ...

you are funny...

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Dear ShmuckX or what ever you call you yourself (a pashtoon would have said 'pulwar sooka' ). If your name is not to call attention to yourself than what else is. I read somewhere else that you consider yourself capable of getting a 'nobel' prize which you will subsequently refuse to accept. LOL, if that is not the height of than what is.

Competent academic education. Is that meant to be an insult. A day in pakhtunkhwa, when it comes to our culture and heritage, is more competent academic education than your lifetime as a rat in some western lab.

Toramana wrora, sorry for us not starting an appreciation thread for you, and sorry to take your joke of starting one yourself seriously as well. In any case keep it up.

This is the third phase of pashtoon idiocy. First it was our elders (we excused them for they did not know better), than the facilitators of vested outsider interests (we will forgive them for they got fooled and were pennyless) but now we have highly educated, prosperous, western born second generation pashtoons bombarding us with idiotic fairytales. Guys my grandmother tells better 'keesai' than you guys ever will. If you are intimidated by the competition at the cutting edge of science and in global commerce and want to run to the sweet comfort of fairy tales, than go visit 'harry potter' in orlando. In pakhtunkhwa/Afghanistan we need proponents of 'amali dunya*' and are up to our noses with wheelers and dealers in 'khyali dunya'.

{Learned the term from an illiterate pashtoon in pakhtunkhwa. Describing a man riding a bike without his hands on the handlebar, he said, "he will come to 'amali dunya' when he hits that truck next to him, now he is in 'khyali dunya'". }




Perfect example of Logically Fallacious tactics; Notice that the actual content is never addressed but irrelevant facts which do not pertain to the validity of the content, such as location of upbringing/birth of the author and snooty disclaimers against the material for example "My grandmother etc etc etc". Never factoring in a nuanced or more detailed understanding of migrational dynamics and motivations. In their shallow minded understanding is that if you live in the West, have an education, you're there to seek their comforts and patronage, nevermind how these cheats and cretins lie about living in Pakhtunkhwah and live in a Social Welfare society like Canada. Most of us are here for other purposes, higher ends, unlike these individuals who disregard the values, principles and religion held by Pakhtoons, as superstition all the while wanting desperately to sell their nang and namous to any ferangi. So they can have their delusional dreamworld of mechanistic hatred for Nature, something born not of reason, but of inferiority complex I might add.

The Paradox these people advocate competing in cutting edge science and global commerce, but yet are intellectual dead weight and can't compose a logically consistent argument in their favor. Always the same rhetoric, Straw Man Arguments, Ad-Hominem, Emotional Appeals. These individuals don't know what to believe. On one hand they're against Islam because according to their delusions it's a fairy tale, but promote the fairy tale of technocracy, despite the fact that it doesn't have the resources to survive the next century. What competition or cutting edge anything will that have in the future? Such hubris and over confidence in technocratic systems of society are why we're in the Global Environmental and Resource scarcity crisis in the first place. The nerve that they have to say that such repulsion is due to "intimidation"; when they fail to realize that it was because of being born, raised and directly involved in a technocratic culture that it's errors and pitfalls became apparent!!!

Straw Hairs are drawn, because I didn't use the Pashto word for scimitar, Pulwar although the word itself isn't actually of Pashto origin but a corruption of the Punjabi word Talwar. Yet never acknowledging Baygham is a Persian word, the anathema of the False Nationalists who want to stir animosity with our Farsi-Speaking brethren in Afghanistan. They'll use every crooked tactic, say the religious values of Pakhtoons is "fairy tales" and foreign imposed, but wholly embrace IMperialistic Mores to be imposed on Pakhtoons, not in Europe and North America but in the own backyards of Pakhtoons. Of course they'll hide under seemingly charitable guise of only "wanting for my people the luxuries I have for myself" but undermine the fact that the luxuries they claim for themselves are not compatible with Pakhtoon life; something totally antithetic than the pretentious claims of charity they're advocating.

This is what I meant by lacking a competent academic education, all one needs to do is use Logic and Rationality and you see their errors they persistently make and internal contradictions in their claims; someone who is learned about logic and reason and has experienced this in academic learning wouldn't fall into these trappings.

Alchemist
02-06-2011, 04:02 PM
^ speaking of nang o namoose ...read this from his/her blog:


Consensual sex is no body else's business. A concept very alien to a pushtoon when his sister is mentioned. But something absolutely necessary for creating a just, healthy and equitable society.

Smite him/her Scimitar!

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:16 PM
^ speaking of nang o namoose ...read this from his/her blog:




Smite him/her Scimitar!


I nearly spit out my water, self destructive and dysfunctional modes of sexuality are healthy??? what a delusional paradox. This guy is a raving fool. That put's everything into perspective. Completely wrong since the evolutionary function of sex is not just based on consensual sex alone, but also the aims and goals of sexuality in it's entire expanse for it's correct and healthy usage. Hence society developed rules regarding sexuality beyond just "consent". We can see the blind and irrational mechanisms these people are working with. How people could conclude that something against our natural drives/faculties is healthy is beyond logic.

And yes he's right such concepts are alien to Pashtoons and should remain so. Let him promote these ideas for people who have deteriorated into dysfunctionality due to their technocratic societies losing their connection to their natural instincts; such as the Northern Europeans he feels inferior to and wants to cow tow for.

why do people who always advocate "commerce progress and cutting edge science" always contradict the very information provided by such streams of understanding.

But let's be honest, individuals like Baygham/Toramana, who are more worried about whether I say Pulwar in my screen name as a definition for Pashtoonness

This guy is definitely not raised in Pakhtunkhwah if he's Pakhtoon, and even if he is, he comes from a privileged background which has direct access to the sociocultural indoctrination of Europoid mores; the exact opposite of his whole "western born Pakhtoons" jargon. This guy is a fraud.

شمله ور خراساني
02-06-2011, 05:18 PM
Scimitar, some months ago, these Baygham, Toramana, Nadir Shah, Lewaney Zalmey etc were defending homosexuality.

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:20 PM
haha he even uses standard slang terms like Shmuck, yeah definitely not raised in Pashtoon culture.

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Scimitar, some months ago, these Baygham, Toramana, Nadir Shah, Lewaney Zalmey etc were defending homosexuality.



I'd believe it, these guys are quite possibly products of Bacha Baz.

شمله ور خراساني
02-06-2011, 05:24 PM
I'd believe it, these guys are quite possibly products of Bacha Baz.


They claim to be Pashtun Nationalists, yet they are advocates of promiscuity, fornication and homosexuality.

The whole concept is so confusing that it jams my laptop.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-06-2011, 05:28 PM
I nearly spit out my water, self destructive and dysfunctional modes of sexuality are healthy??? what a delusional paradox. This guy is a raving fool. That put's everything into perspective. Completely wrong since the evolutionary function of sex is not just based on consensual sex alone, but also the aims and goals of sexuality in it's entire expanse for it's correct and healthy usage. Hence society developed rules regarding sexuality beyond just "consent". We can see the blind and irrational mechanisms these people are working with.

And yes he's right such concepts are alien to Pashtoons and should remain so. Let him promote these ideas for people who have deteriorated into dysfunctionality due to their technocratic societies losing their connection to their natural instincts; such as the Northern Europeans he feels inferior to and wants to cow tow for.

why do people who always advocate "commerce progress and cutting edge science" always contradict the very information provided by such streams of understanding.

But let's be honest, individuals like Baygham/Toramana, who are more worried about whether I say Pulwar in my screen name as a definition for Pashtoonness

This guy is definitely not raised in Pakhtunkhwah if he's Pakhtoon, and even if he is, he comes from a privileged background which has direct access to the sociocultural indoctrination of Europoid mores; the exact opposite of his whole "western born Pakhtoons" jargon. This guy is a fraud.


That is a fairly good assessment of the function of sex. I would say that some aspects of science buttress this. Take for example the amount of biological resource alotted to the creation of the egg versus that of the sperm. The idea is that the egg is like a diamond and the sperm is like quartz crystal (useful but less "valuable") in terms of its production and release cycle. He ought to read about the development of mate gaurding behavior and how this simple concept I cited in terms of the value of the gamete underlies that sort of behavior. The development of the cerebral cortex and usage to devise schema against the natural biological order continues to fascinate me.

"Reproductive costs can be steep for those who fail at mate guarding [8]. For men, a single failure at mate guarding could result in genetic cuckoldry, as happens when manís wife becomes fertilized by a rival manís
sperm. In addition to the direct loss of opportunity for reproduction, the husband risks investing years or decades of his own effort in a rivalís child in the mistaken believe that the child is his own. To compound these reproductive losses, his wifeís maternal efforts now benefi t his rivalís child rather than his own. Furthermore, if the lapse becomes public, the cuckolded man risks damage to his social reputation, which could
bring about a decrement in mate value, a loss of status, and an increased future vulnerability to other mate poachers."

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/Human%20Mate%20Guarding.pdf (http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/Human%20Mate%20Guarding.pdf)

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:32 PM
They claim to be Pashtun Nationalists, yet they are advocates of promiscuity, fornication and homosexuality.

The whole concept is so confusing that it jams my laptop.




oh yeah ...I knew from day one that this "Pashtun Nationalism" stuff is just a cover/scam. A Trojan horse to create a facade of legitimacy.

Like oh see look I'm fighting and advocating the rights of Pashtoons, You should follow these very ANTI PASHTOON ideas because I endorse them.

Con Artists, all of them.

Sheenka
02-06-2011, 05:32 PM
shahri zad o khor ast :hmm:

شمله ور خراساني
02-06-2011, 05:37 PM
oh yeah ...I knew from day one that this "Pashtun Nationalism" stuff is just a cover/scam. A Trojan horse to create a facade of legitimacy.

Like oh see look I'm fighting and advocating the rights of Pashtoons, You should follow these very ANTI PASHTOON ideas because I endorse them.

Con Artists, all of them.


there use to be a member here who is not active any longer.

He knows the sons and grandsons of prominent figures in the pashtun nationalist movement of Pashtunkhwa.

According to him, one of the prominent figures owns porn cinema's in peshawar where they use to play porn movies where pashtun women were playing the lead role.

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:43 PM
That is a fairly good assessment of the function of sex. I would say that some aspects of science buttress this. Take for example the amount of biological resource alotted to the creation of the egg versus that of the sperm. The idea is that the egg is like a diamond and the sperm is like quartz crystal (useful but less "valuable") in terms of its production and release cycle. He ought to read about the development of mate gaurding behavior and how this simple concept I cited in terms of the value of the gamete underlies that sort of behavior. The development of the cerebral cortex and usage to devise schema against the natural biological order continues to fascinate me.

"Reproductive costs can be steep for those who fail at mate guarding [8]. For men, a single failure at mate guarding could result in genetic cuckoldry, as happens when man’s wife becomes fertilized by a rival man’s
sperm. In addition to the direct loss of opportunity for reproduction, the husband risks investing years or decades of his own effort in a rival’s child in the mistaken believe that the child is his own. To compound these reproductive losses, his wife’s maternal efforts now benefi t his rival’s child rather than his own. Furthermore, if the lapse becomes public, the cuckolded man risks damage to his social reputation, which could
bring about a decrement in mate value, a loss of status, and an increased future vulnerability to other mate poachers."

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/Human%20Mate%20Guarding.pdf (http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/Human%20Mate%20Guarding.pdf)






Beyond that, look at things from a physiological and biological perspective. The Genders evolved because of reproductive labor division; therefore the sexual dynamics of each have become directed in a complimentary manner. Women cannot become impregnated by more than one male at a time; and such a faculty arrangement requires increased paternal investment. Therefore situations where promiscuity or uncommitted sexual enterprise would not be an intrinsic mechanism in females, but a learned mechanism that would undermine the biological directives of sexual needs and therefore would be destructive to social and reproductive equilibrium amongst the species. These people are out of touch with reality and their own instinct and end up perceiving the dysfunctional as the healthy.

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:44 PM
there use to be a member here who is not active any longer.

He knows the sons and grandsons of prominent figures in the pashtun nationalist movement of Pashtunkhwa.

According to him, one of the prominent figures owns porn cinema's in peshawar where they use to play porn movies where pashtun women were playing the lead role.

lol well there are some lewd Pashtun films, not sure what ethnicity the women were because often times they'd import women from other areas, Usually Mujra dancers. However, I wouldn't be surprised if these people saw these deviant forms of sexual stimulation as "healthy?

شمله ور خراساني
02-06-2011, 05:46 PM
lol well there are some lewd Pashtun films, not sure what ethnicity the women were because often times they'd import women from other areas, Usually Mujra dancers. However, I wouldn't be surprised if these people saw these deviant forms of sexual stimulation as "healthy?
the import business is well known for years. However, there is a new development where they do not bother importing the women.

ScimitarXEdge
02-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Nevermind :)

شمله ور خراساني
02-06-2011, 05:59 PM
ok

Baygham
02-07-2011, 01:35 PM
I nearly spit out my water, self destructive and dysfunctional modes of sexuality are healthy??? what a delusional paradox. This guy is a raving fool. That put's everything into perspective. Completely wrong since the evolutionary function of sex is not just based on consensual sex alone, but also the aims and goals of sexuality in it's entire expanse for it's correct and healthy usage. Hence society developed rules regarding sexuality beyond just "consent". We can see the blind and irrational mechanisms these people are working with. How people could conclude that something against our natural drives/faculties is healthy is beyond logic.

And yes he's right such concepts are alien to Pashtoons and should remain so. Let him promote these ideas for people who have deteriorated into dysfunctionality due to their technocratic societies losing their connection to their natural instincts; such as the Northern Europeans he feels inferior to and wants to cow tow for.

why do people who always advocate "commerce progress and cutting edge science" always contradict the very information provided by such streams of understanding.

But let's be honest, individuals like Baygham/Toramana, who are more worried about whether I say Pulwar in my screen name as a definition for Pashtoonness

This guy is definitely not raised in Pakhtunkhwah if he's Pakhtoon, and even if he is, he comes from a privileged background which has direct access to the sociocultural indoctrination of Europoid mores; the exact opposite of his whole "western born Pakhtoons" jargon. This guy is a fraud.

Be happy in in your culture, buddy. Get melted in the great melting pot, like the millions of Europeans and others, there is no role for lost generations coming back to father land in pakhtunkwha. If you feel alienated with your present circumstances and fascinated with arabic folklore, than go apply for saudi nationality or join an islamic center and be happy about it. This venom is not welcomed in Pashtoon land. It may be good business, I agree, but not needed. Kind of like, cigarettes, good for the farmers of Swabi, but not for the people of pakhtunkwha.

I wrote that post on Zina in 2003, now I dont have TV and dont get my medical and forensic updates from CSI, but am sure that was not popular back than and what I wrote was known in the public domain long before.

Belief is a personal preference, like the color of a shirt I may like. To impose and kill humans for it is sick. Whether those humans are pashtoon or jews, it is equally sick to me. If it is not to you, than go visit a competent psychiatrist, for you do need help.

To be honest I rather have 20 years of economic stagnation like Japan than what is presently happening in pakhtunland. Even mentioning the two in the same sentence is hogwash. 'chartha toothi lal, aw chartha lal dha badhakhshan".

Baygham
02-07-2011, 01:40 PM
there use to be a member here who is not active any longer.

He knows the sons and grandsons of prominent figures in the pashtun nationalist movement of Pashtunkhwa.

According to him, one of the prominent figures owns porn cinema's in peshawar where they use to play porn movies where pashtun women were playing the lead role.
the bilours are not the face of pashtoons(they are actually hindkowan, we have BTW more corrupt and deranged pashtoons than them labeled as nationalist ). Just like Yazid is not a sunni hero, rotten eggs are everwhere.

Baygham
02-07-2011, 01:44 PM
^ speaking of nang o namoose ...read this from his/her blog:




Smite him/her Scimitar!

Your God got offended with that, or did I activate a PTSD flashback,
please educate me why is consensual sex Allahs business, because?.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Your God got offended with that, or did I activate a PTSD flashback,
please educate me why is consensual sex Allahs business, because?.

What a circular and stupid question. It depends on who you are asking.

If you mean consensual sex between a married man and a woman then its a nonstarter and irrevelent.

If you mean consensual sex between a man and a woman who are not married or same sex then:

If you are asking this of a Muslim, then he will say "well because Allah made it his business to do so in his book."

If you are asking a nonmuslim, say a Christian, they might ascribe to the same as the Muslim generally as would an orthodox jew.

If you are asking an atheist or an agonstic or a nominal believer of some faith then he might say, "well I dont know."

Nadir Shah
02-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Toramana!! An absolute king. Ole Hazrat Toramana, I am so very happy that I got an opportunity to learn from you and I rue the fact that I could not learn more from you. Despite your Tajik-phobia, you are rational, logical, clear, knowledgeable and a visionary.
*Salutes*

Baygham
02-07-2011, 03:50 PM
What a circular and stupid question. It depends on who you are asking.

If you mean consensual sex between a married man and a woman then its a nonstarter and irrevelent.

If you mean consensual sex between a man and a woman who are not married or same sex then:

If you are asking this of a Muslim, then he will say "well because Allah made it his business to do so in his book."

If you are asking a nonmuslim, say a Christian, they might ascribe to the same as the Muslim generally as would an orthodox jew.

If you are asking an atheist or an agonstic or a nominal believer of some faith then he might say, "well I dont know."

Why should one say 'well I dont know'. I say God/allah/jesus or the holy goat/cow, what ever is ones fancy, ,has absolutely no say, in the affairs of two consensual adults (i am talking about a man and a woman of sound age and not trying to stir your homosexual fantacies) engaged in what ever healthy activity they so desire.

allah and his holy book, gita and the holy cow, or what ever you are reading at the moment, what has that got to do with it.

This stupid logic of dragging allah into everything has caused 10s of thousands of poor women jailed on idiotic charges of sexual impropriety in pakistan in the name of Islam. Think about them for just one second. Even the children of these women live in jails with them. Chanting Allah is great does not wash the stain on our collective consciousness of these horrific atrocities.

Do we want to see these things in the name of islam in pashtoon land. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12344959

Alchemist
02-07-2011, 06:07 PM
Your God got offended with that, or did I activate a PTSD flashback,
please educate me why is consensual sex Allahs business, because?.


So if I come over to your house and sleep with any female member with her consent ... you wouldn't mind even if it was your wife?


just answer ..yes or no...:hairy:

Alchemist
02-07-2011, 06:17 PM
I don't see any reason why should mind ...


I am trying to think for you...

And I think you would actually like that...

I know in North American culture it is customary for couples to invite strangers into their sex life and even film it and what have you..."liberals" as they say. Of course you are not espousing an original thought here, but are just preaching liberalism and libertarianism and you too have your own gods and myths that you adhere to but I don't see how you will succeed with that in Afghanistan or Pakistan...And I am pretty sure that if even your daughter chose to get into the age old profession, you'd probably make her a brothel. I know you have that much sense of decency to support your own kindred in the pursuit of their own happiness...even if it may raise eye brows. You'd probably do it as an exemplary act from which your pashtun brothers would one day hopefully mimic. Ahh... I see a great future for you and tormanan in pakhtunkhwa...financially too.

So I retract my question...and to the real pashtuns who have a sense of ghairat, excuse me if I have been too graphic.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 06:19 PM
Why should one say 'well I dont know'. I say God/allah/jesus or the holy goat/cow, what ever is ones fancy, ,has absolutely no say, in the affairs of two consensual adults (i am talking about a man and a woman of sound age and not trying to stir your homosexual fantacies) engaged in what ever healthy activity they so desire.

allah and his holy book, gita and the holy cow, or what ever you are reading at the moment, what has that got to do with it.

This stupid logic of dragging allah into everything has caused 10s of thousands of poor women jailed on idiotic charges of sexual impropriety in pakistan in the name of Islam. Think about them for just one second. Even the children of these women live in jails with them. Chanting Allah is great does not wash the stain on our collective consciousness of these horrific atrocities.

Do we want to see these things in the name of islam in pashtoon land. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12344959 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12344959)


So I had previously asked you to learn to write in standard English when you made a fool of yourself elsewhere. It appears that you ignored this advice. As a result, you maintain an inability to communicate effectively and convey your point.

1. You confuse two concepts: religious belief and being legally disenfranchized. The latter can happen in any society, even a secular one. In fact, I am sure you can find jails in Turkey filled with people that are imprisoned without either due process or with evidence that is ambiguous. To add to this, here in the US the Innocence Project, under Barry Scheck has made waves when it comes to utilizing DNA evidence to overturn capital punishments. You might be correct in saying that someone perverting the word of God to punish others unjustly is worse than a secular agreement that violates religious morals. However, that is not how you convey this with your verbage (garbage).

2. The statement is circular because you repeatedly point out that God has no place to pass judgement on two consenting adults having sex. However, a believer of a particular faith will disagree because that is his belief system. You are basically asking him: "why should God care about people having sex?" He answers: "look, I believe in a higher power and that higher power decided that premarital sex is a sin." So you basically waste your time and ours with such frivolous concerns about religion.

3. You have an ethical dilemma in your brain. You promote homosexuality as an equivalent and recognizable lifestyle, yet you use homosexual as an insult/slander. You seem to enjoy throwing the term around. What I have found in my life is that people who have an inferiority complex or are closet homosexuals themselves (Reverand Tim Haggard) act this way. Perhaps you ought to have some internal dialogue regarding what your fascination is with homosexuality.

4. Just as you wish us to bless two consenting adults go about their private business, we wish for you to take a crash course on reality. For example, one ought to have the right to free speech. However, when John Lennon said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus Christ, the southern bible belt of America was on fire (subsequently Lennon was killed by a Christian fundamentalist). So this odd notion that executing an ideology automatically detaches you from reality shows how little you know about life in general and about human response to stimuli.

5. With 4 in mind, and with you wanting us to give you your blessing to have as much consentual sex as possible, lets take this further. When you are older and have a daughter, are you going to be OK with her having consensual sex? What about her deciding to become a pornographer? How would you feel if a male came off the street and said "Begum, I want to have consensual sex with your daughter or sister... she agreed and we are planning on this at 6 pm tonight."

This is not to bait you or insult you, its to get you to step into someone elses shoes. Many men, even American men would be furious. In fact, there was recently a case in the news here in Connecticut where a cop assaulted a boy for doing just that with his daughter. He has a very human response based on his moral ideologies.

For that matter, many mothers would disappointed with their sons or daughters should such actions take place.

Alchemist
02-07-2011, 06:46 PM
^ isnt "Begum" urdu for mistress?
I think baygham is female
you know "i feel shackled by my culture..uff i wanna show off some":wub: ....
you know it's all about yin yang psychology. Females are nurturing and submissive, giving and caring ...which is why it is generally expected of them to be "gay" and not as much frowned upon as on men. So that could explain the homosexuality bit...don't you think barakzai?

randolph85
02-07-2011, 08:42 PM
i am going to go ahead and guess that bay has at least 3 std's and blames the unsightly bumps on his lips as well as the burning sensenation when he urinates on religion.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 09:48 PM
^ isnt "Begum" urdu for mistress?
I think baygham is female
you know "i feel shackled by my culture..uff i wanna show off some":wub: ....
you know it's all about yin yang psychology. Females are nurturing and submissive, giving and caring ...which is why it is generally expected of them to be "gay" and not as much frowned upon as on men. So that could explain the homosexuality bit...don't you think barakzai?


Beg (male)/Begum (female) --> turkic titles also in vogue in Persia. For example, Ahmad Shah Abdali's mentor was known as Nadir Shah Afshar Qoli Beg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah)

Freudian slip on my part.

His ^ name means Bay (devoid of) Gham (care) or carefree in Pashto.

Because of my mother's time in Kabul and the fact that my father and her derive from different areas, I mix the Yusufzai/Kabul and Shin dialects and usually end up speaking a sort of fusion dialect with some farsi mixed in. So Ill say pishqaab for plate and paryaan/tumbaan instead of the standard Pashto words, confusing some folks.

Now with a Wazir wife, its getting even more complicated and folks will likely not be able to pinpoint exactly where my kids have derived from. So my wife's family says "eblaa pshaay" for bare foot as an example and they refer to each other's wives as "zarra".

Admin Khan
02-07-2011, 09:50 PM
And I thought doctors might get along. :-)

ScimitarXEdge
02-07-2011, 09:53 PM
Be happy in in your culture, buddy. Get melted in the great melting pot, like the millions of Europeans and others, there is no role for lost generations coming back to father land in pakhtunkwha. If you feel alienated with your present circumstances and fascinated with arabic folklore, than go apply for saudi nationality or join an islamic center and be happy about it. This venom is not welcomed in Pashtoon land. It may be good business, I agree, but not needed. Kind of like, cigarettes, good for the farmers of Swabi, but not for the people of pakhtunkwha.

I wrote that post on Zina in 2003, now I dont have TV and dont get my medical and forensic updates from CSI, but am sure that was not popular back than and what I wrote was known in the public domain long before.

Belief is a personal preference, like the color of a shirt I may like. To impose and kill humans for it is sick. Whether those humans are pashtoon or jews, it is equally sick to me. If it is not to you, than go visit a competent psychiatrist, for you do need help.

To be honest I rather have 20 years of economic stagnation like Japan than what is presently happening in pakhtunland. Even mentioning the two in the same sentence is hogwash. 'chartha toothi lal, aw chartha lal dha badhakhshan".


Was this written out of irony or self deluded stupidity? It appears you're more eager to melt Pakhtun society and culture into the European Hegemonistic Melting pot of Neocolonial enterprise, than anyone else here. Hence this clearly Northern European concocted model of sexual politics.

And please don't pretend you're some "Sada Asle Pakhtun" from Pakhtunkhwah; your idioms, semantics and value structure reek of thorough acculturation to mores completely alien to Pakhtuns, i.e. colonized mentality by the hands of Europeans; you were clearly raised somewhere outside of Pakhtunkhwah/Afghanistan or the like, if you are Pakhtun that is which is rapidly coming into doubt the more you blather

All the typical staple errorneous rebuttal tactics like "Arab Folklore" something traditionally peddled by completely uneducated Orientalists are employed as the usual scapegoats. Anyone learned on the matter is familiar between the vast distinctions between the folklore of Arabs and the Islamic Ideology.

How pathetic to see you claiming yourself as some official spokes person of Pakhtuns when every viewpoint you hold is opposed and rejected by Pakhtun values, principles and and sociocultural norms. If you haven't checked the overwhelming majority of Pakhtuns identify with Islam, those who don't are conventionally not Pakhtun, or from some poor South Asian society who's culture being wrought by European colonization, have been reduced to suffering an inferiority complex due to historical attempts at conditioning the populace have deludedly identified European cultural norms as a model of life. You seem to fit into the later category. The hubris you have to imply Islam is a poison or something alien to Pakhtuns when it's had centuries to assimilate and interweave itself into the Pakhtun societal matrix, all the while promoting self destructive modes of sexual behavior which have created dysfunctional sociocultural norms in Industrial/Capitalist/Imperialist societies. The cigarette analogy seems to be more befitting in your case here; especially considering how huge such industry the industry of deviant forms of sense gratification which go against their evolutionary functions are in Capitalist cultures.

Addressing belief, sexual mores; Theyr'e not only Allah(swt)'s buisness, they're society's business too. Beliefs and ideas determine everything from the allocation of resources, the application of resources and their directives to social interactions and dealings. Everything depends on beliefs and principles and ideas. to Equate them to such casual things like shirt choice is like comparing eating a candy bar to eating nourishing food. Yes they're both choices; but one is needed, the other is negligible. Society has always developed such rules of those to regulate it by those who are compatible with it's mode of operations and those who are not, the "nots" are those who are expunged, whether by death or ostracization; this is an anthropological reality; to deny this is only to live in the Fairy Tale and Folk lore of Europeans. What's done in the "name of Islam" and what's Islamic teachings are not the same. Anyone can falsely use a name to scapegoat under, this however does not make it ratified under Islam. Islam is free of blame, it is only those who attempt to falsely represent it who are called into account. It's no surprise that those who do unislamic things in Islam's name, are not following Islam.

Here's my analysis, you're dysfunctional, and have a tendency to endorse self destructive behaviors; this is all a tragic byproduct of feeling like a lesser form of life compared to Northern Europeans. I mean why wouldn't you? You've had them tell you day in and day out of your upbringing in Canada that their environmentally destructive, resource wasting way of life is the pinnacle of human progress and advancement; you never questioned it because they imposed this standard standard upon every aspect of life. So here you are with this complex, this persistent anxiety which cannot be tamed. You hate your own existence, and life itself and want so bad to desecrate it in whatever way possible to appease this resentment; you're ostracized by Pakhtuns, people you want so badly to be apart of because of the historical prestige of resisting Europeans, all the while wanting them to succumb to Europeans to compensate this feeling of inadequacy. You're a tortured soul, with mental illness. Are you sure it's not you who needs a competent psychiatrist here?

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 09:58 PM
And I thought doctors might get along. :-)

I dont have an issue with him. Its sort of similar to what you felt about Sangar's post the other day. Its that this fellow physician makes these statements that, if they were rephrased, might actually get him a target audience. Instead, he makes obsolete arguments that are one way and more opinion pieces than even arguments of logic.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 10:08 PM
And I thought doctors might get along. :-)

I mean how do you answer the monumentally stupid question that equates to: why do people with a monotheistic/abrahamic belief system think that premarital consensual sexual intercourse is illicit?

I dont even think Richard Dawkins would appreciate his style as Dawkins at least understands that, for instance, asking Francis Collins: "Hey Francis, though you are a believing Christian, whats your deal with believing that Jesus wouldnt endorse lieing, I mean you gotta lie sometimes right? " would make Dawkins look dumb beyond measure. The answer is right in front him: because Collins is a Christian and has accepted the precepts of Christianity.

Its like when Osho and others say: Hey why dont you all just change that part of the Quran that says the stuff about Soddom and Gomorrah and inheritance law. What kind of retarded jacked up logic is that in a discussion? I am not a scholar on Sikhism or Hinduism, but I know enough that if I asked an Indian Mundaar Priest: "Hey buddy, you know that whole Gita verse thing and the Rama and Sita story? Well yeah, so they kinda of dont make sense and do you wanna get rid of them?" If I am fairly certain that the Hindu believes his scripture derives from Brahman and that he also believes its not man made... what makes me think that he is just going to go "ho hum, sure lets delete this part here and add a section about Romeo and Juliet instead."

Why would anyone entertain such absurd suggestions when an article of the oppositions faith says: see this book, you know the thing between two covers... it all comes from an all knowing all seeing omnipotent being. I know evangelicals that tell me, contrary to many mainstream Christians: Yep, every word of the New Testament is verbatim the word of God. Where do I think I would get in discussion if I said: yeah so you know that part that talks about Christ throwing the money lenders out of the temple: lets delete that. They would look at me like I missed half of the conversation with them.

These people initiate discussions with nonstarter commentary that borders on absurd.

Alchemist
02-07-2011, 10:26 PM
Beg (male)/Begum (female) --> turkic titles also in vogue in Persia. For example, Ahmad Shah Abdali's mentor was known as Nadir Shah Afshar Qoli Beg.

[/URL][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Shah)

Freudian slip on my part.

His ^ name means Bay (devoid of) Gham (care) or carefree in Pashto.

Because of my mother's time in Kabul and the fact that my father and her derive from different areas, I mix the Yusufzai/Kabul and Shin dialects and usually end up speaking a sort of fusion dialect with some farsi mixed in. So Ill say pishqaab for plate and paryaan/tumbaan instead of the standard Pashto words, confusing some folks.

Now with a Wazir wife, its getting even more complicated and folks will likely not be able to pinpoint exactly where my kids have derived from. So my wife's family says "eblaa pshaay" for bare foot as an example and they refer to each other's wives as "zarra".

That is so interesting.

In farsi baygham also means without worries, but I didn't think it to be also a pashto word so I was confused. Especially so when beygham was being critical of Scimitar for not picking a pashto name instead. Typically gham also is used in Urdu, but I figured originally it is dari. Then again we also use words like bayaqil, baysharaf, bayghairat...again ..aqil and sharaf and ghairat have an arabic origin...which goes to show that really we are a mix and we shouldn't be too confused over that fact.
It's really sad that some afghans choose to pick up on the negative aspects of western society and totally miss out on the more pragmatic and functional values. Such as the fact that if you ever ask an american or a canadian where are you from, they will say "america" or "canada" respectively, even if they are one or two generation migrants of germany or england or Ireland. People like baygham and tormana instead want to define pashtun nationalism on some vague and obtuse super race that doesn't exist. Still subconsciously they are advocating debunked socialist darwinian ideologies that clever minds like adolph and yosif couldn't realize. They suffer from their myopic gaze and fail to visualize a world at peace otherwise they would never agree to the whole sale rape of both Afghanistan and Pakistan by the colonial forces. If the people are fighting it is because they want sharia law to prevail. Instead what the global conspirators, the proponents of free market economy who have sworn to enslave the masses, have successfully implanted the idea that people ought to be coerced into democracy for their own good.
When this fool talks about "consensual" sex, what he really means to say is that cuckoldry and promiscuity favours a society in which individuals have complete autonomy over their own existence, in other words, people are gods...they can do whatever they want...without worry of consequence or anything at all...bay gham...girl gets pregnant? It's ok ...get an abortion. They are the type for whom technological advancements (like the creation of latex) becomes a disservice to their souls as they are too lazy to control their wanton desires.

Anyway .... I carry this conversation here with you as you expressed that you'd like this thread to run for much longer..so I'll await for your thoughts

Admin Khan
02-07-2011, 10:29 PM
I dont have an issue with him. Its sort of similar to what you felt about Sangar's post the other day. Its that this fellow physician makes these statements that, if they were rephrased, might actually get him a target audience. Instead, he makes obsolete arguments that are one way and more opinion pieces than even arguments of logic.

Oh,what I said was meant to be a joke. Since Baygham is a doctor, and you are a doctor, I figured I'd throw that in there.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 10:36 PM
That is so interesting.

In farsi baygham also means without worries, but I didn't think it to be also a pashto word so I was confused. Especially so when beygham was being critical of Scimitar for not picking a pashto name instead. Typically gham also is used in Urdu, but I figured originally it is dari. Then again we also use words like bayaqil, baysharaf, bayghairat...again ..aqil and sharaf and ghairat have an arabic origin...which goes to show that really we are a mix and we shouldn't be too confused over that fact.
It's really sad that some afghans choose to pick up on the negative aspects of western society and totally miss out on the more pragmatic and functional values. Such as the fact that if you ever ask an american or a canadian where are you from, they will say "america" or "canada" respectively, even if they are one or two generation migrants of germany or england or Ireland. People like baygham and tormana instead want to define pashtun nationalism on some vague and obtuse super race that doesn't exist. Still subconsciously they are advocating debunked socialist darwinian ideologies that clever minds like adolph and yosif couldn't realize. They suffer from their myopic gaze and fail to visualize a world at peace otherwise they would never agree to the whole sale rape of both Afghanistan and Pakistan by the colonial forces. If the people are fighting it is because they want sharia law to prevail. Instead what the global conspirators, the proponents of free market economy who have sworn to enslave the masses, have successfully implanted the idea that people ought to be coerced into democracy for their own good.
When this fool talks about "consensual" sex, what he really means to say is that cuckoldry and promiscuity favours a society in which individuals have complete autonomy over their own existence, in other words, people are gods...they can do whatever they want...without worry of consequence or anything at all...bay gham...girl gets pregnant? It's ok ...get an abortion. They are the type for whom technological advancements (like the creation of latex) becomes a disservice to their souls as they are too lazy to control their wanton desires.

Anyway .... I carry this conversation here with you as you expressed that you'd like this thread to run for much longer..so I'll await for your thoughts

Well there you go, more persian and arabic finding its way into what I say.

I didn't mean to reinforce its length... I just was embarrassed about the appreciation thread for myself:blushes: and felt fine with the spotlight on Toramana. However, the gesture by Kakargirl was appreciated as she always has the best of intentions.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 10:39 PM
Oh,what I said was meant to be a joke. Since Baygham is a doctor, and you are a doctor, I figured I'd throw that in there.

Read up on the Eric Topol and Toby Cosgrove clash. It was like clash of the titans or Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant ala Wrestlemania 3. For that matter, read up on Denton Cooly and Michael DeBakey (that was like when Hulk and the Ultimate Warrior went at in Wrestlemania 6). Sorry for the wrestling references... you grow up on that stuff like mayonnaise sandwiches down in dixie.

randolph85
02-07-2011, 10:39 PM
baygham specializes in prostrate exams. he does house calls too i hear.

randolph85
02-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Read up on the Eric Topol and Toby Cosgrove clash. It was like clash of the titans or Hulk Hogan versus Andre the Giant ala Wrestlemania 3. For that matter, read up on Denton Cooly and Michael DeBakey (that was like when Hulk and the Ultimate Warrior went at in Wrestlemania 6). Sorry for the wrestling references... you grow up on that stuff like mayonnaise sandwiches down in dixie.


u are a regular bobby the brain heenan. u damn humanoids.

Wrayun
02-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Except a few discussions I had with LZ and Dust, most of the secular moderate atheists here, including Baygham, rarely present arguments that are intellectually stimulating. Much of it, if I may say, is hot steam build up over years of personal frustration looking for relief. Some of the arguments presented by Baygham hurt his position more then help it. As a civilized, moderate, humanist atheist, I called him out on his homophobic tendencies before:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/future-secular-pukhtoon-state-pornography-laws-5777/

Ironic, that he is asking ScimitarXEdge to "melt in the melting pot" while all along a as evolved Pukhtoon atheist he wishes to acclimatize the entire Pukhtoon society to his own newly found, non-Pukhtoon, mostly Western, ideologies. If anyone should just give up and melt in the melting pot, as I suggested before, are these atheists. Particularly who wish to enforce cultures and social norms complete alien to Pukhtoons. You have evolved, you have found a new way of life, good for you. Move on, don't let nostalgia hold you back.

Oh, for that Baygham had an excuse as well, he said that the world won't let him. That's why he remains to be a Pukhtoon and chooses to associates with them. The Western world? As far as I know, in the West, aka the melting pot, no one cares about your race, sex or origin. You choose to hold on to your ethnic baggage, and now wish to drag the whole of your ethnic populace with you into your new understandings. And how does he do it? He says that they, most of them, majority of them, suffer from a diseases called "Islam". His own words.....It's like that saying....the village laughs at the idiot, and the idiot laughs at the village.

Sort your complexes out. Let go.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 11:27 PM
Except a few discussions I had with LZ and Dust, most of the secular moderate atheists here, including Baygham, rarely present arguments that are intellectually stimulating. Much of it, if I may say, is hot steam build up over years of personal frustration looking for relief. Some of the arguments presented by Baygham hurt his position more then help it. As a civilized, moderate, humanist atheist, I called him out on his homophobic tendencies before:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/future-secular-pukhtoon-state-pornography-laws-5777/ (http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/future-secular-pukhtoon-state-pornography-laws-5777/)

Ironic, that he is asking ScimitarXEdge to "melt in the melting pot" while all along a as evolved Pukhtoon atheist he wishes to acclimatize the entire Pukhtoon society to his own newly found, non-Pukhtoon, mostly Western, ideologies. If anyone should just give up and melt in the meltinqug pot, as I suggested before, are these atheists. Particularly who wish to enforce cultures and social norms complete alien to Pukhtoons. You have evolved, you have found a new way of life, good for you. Move on, don't let nostalgia hold you back.

Oh, for that Baygham had an excuse as well, he said that the world won't let him. That's why he remains to be a Pukhtoon and chooses to associates with them. The Western world? As far as I know, in the West, aka the melting pot, no one cares about your race, sex or origin. You choose to hold on to your ethnic baggage, and now wish to drag the whole of your ethnic populace with you into your new understandings. And how does he do it? He says that they, most of them, majority of them, suffer from a diseases called "Islam". His own words.....It's like that saying....the village laughs at the idiot, and the idiot laughs at the village.

Sort your complexes out. Let go.

I think that you were trying to give them a Jon Stewartesque style wake up call to the contradictions inherent in their positions, but they used that against you and attacked your form of delivery. I made that hard for them when I utilized Ahmad Shah Baba... all they could say was that Islamacized someone who had previously Islamacized himself. Wait, gulalai is an athiest? Not that it matters, but am I reading this right?

Baygham
02-07-2011, 11:34 PM
So if I come over to your house and sleep with any female member with her consent ... you wouldn't mind even if it was your wife?


just answer ..yes or no...:hairy:

your avatar amply shows that the energy in your sacral chakra is way out of whack(red- too hot). Before coming to my house, visit your mom/sister so the chakras balances out.

Afterwards you are welcome. Remember I wont make decisions for others (ie a wife, in case I had one, i wont make decisions for her). If she chooses you, she is free to leave me. I dont need chains to tie her down. Know my place and will apply the same moral principles to my behavior when it comes to me sleeping around.

Admin Khan
02-07-2011, 11:49 PM
I think that you were trying to give them a Jon Stewartesque style wake up call to the contradictions inherent in their positions, but they used that against you and attacked your form of delivery. I made that hard for them when I utilized Ahmad Shah Baba... all they could say was that Islamacized someone who had previously Islamacized himself. Wait, gulalai is an athiest? Not that it matters, but am I reading this right?

We have two Gulalais.

-Gulalai = Muslim
gulalai= Atheist, since she attends an Ivy-league, she is busy with school.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-07-2011, 11:49 PM
your avatar amply shows that the energy in your sacral chakra is way out of whack(red- too hot). Before coming to my house, visit your mom/sister so the chakras balances out.

Afterwards you are welcome. Remember I wont make decisions for others (ie a wife, in case I had one, i wont make decisions for her). If she chooses you, she is free to leave me. I dont need chains to tie her down. Know my place and will apply the same moral principles to my behavior when it comes to me sleeping around.

Great hedging answer.

I read that back and forth with Wrayun way back when. Do you live on some Pashtun colony on Mars comprised of folks that have lost complete touch with reality?

What kind of sick nut case are you? Oh right, the kind that somehow ignores American, Russian, and every other nation's textbooks on Najib and somehow turns a ******* into a saint.

People like you ought to be airdropped right into the middle of Kandahar so you can see how long you last when you mouth your filth in the open. That, my friend, would be the ultimate real world test of your ideology.

See how long you last in any village chowk with a loud horn when you say what you do. At least your colleague Osho had enough sense to admit that the Pashtun majority think of you guys as depraved automatons mouthing the same rhetoric as if you read off the same script.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 12:08 AM
Was this written out of irony or self deluded stupidity? It appears you're more eager to melt Pakhtun society and culture into the European Hegemonistic Melting pot of Neocolonial enterprise, than anyone else here. Hence this clearly Northern European concocted model of sexual politics.

And please don't pretend you're some "Sada Asle Pakhtun" from Pakhtunkhwah; your idioms, semantics and value structure reek of thorough acculturation to mores completely alien to Pakhtuns, i.e. colonized mentality by the hands of Europeans; you were clearly raised somewhere outside of Pakhtunkhwah/Afghanistan or the like, if you are Pakhtun that is which is rapidly coming into doubt the more you blather

All the typical staple errorneous rebuttal tactics like "Arab Folklore" something traditionally peddled by completely uneducated Orientalists are employed as the usual scapegoats. Anyone learned on the matter is familiar between the vast distinctions between the folklore of Arabs and the Islamic Ideology.

How pathetic to see you claiming yourself as some official spokes person of Pakhtuns when every viewpoint you hold is opposed and rejected by Pakhtun values, principles and and sociocultural norms. If you haven't checked the overwhelming majority of Pakhtuns identify with Islam, those who don't are conventionally not Pakhtun, or from some poor South Asian society who's culture being wrought by European colonization, have been reduced to suffering an inferiority complex due to historical attempts at conditioning the populace have deludedly identified European cultural norms as a model of life. You seem to fit into the later category. The hubris you have to imply Islam is a poison or something alien to Pakhtuns when it's had centuries to assimilate and interweave itself into the Pakhtun societal matrix, all the while promoting self destructive modes of sexual behavior which have created dysfunctional sociocultural norms in Industrial/Capitalist/Imperialist societies. The cigarette analogy seems to be more befitting in your case here; especially considering how huge such industry the industry of deviant forms of sense gratification which go against their evolutionary functions are in Capitalist cultures.

Addressing belief, sexual mores; Theyr'e not only Allah(swt)'s buisness, they're society's business too. Beliefs and ideas determine everything from the allocation of resources, the application of resources and their directives to social interactions and dealings. Everything depends on beliefs and principles and ideas. to Equate them to such casual things like shirt choice is like comparing eating a candy bar to eating nourishing food. Yes they're both choices; but one is needed, the other is negligible. Society has always developed such rules of those to regulate it by those who are compatible with it's mode of operations and those who are not, the "nots" are those who are expunged, whether by death or ostracization; this is an anthropological reality; to deny this is only to live in the Fairy Tale and Folk lore of Europeans. What's done in the "name of Islam" and what's Islamic teachings are not the same. Anyone can falsely use a name to scapegoat under, this however does not make it ratified under Islam. Islam is free of blame, it is only those who attempt to falsely represent it who are called into account. It's no surprise that those who do unislamic things in Islam's name, are not following Islam.

Here's my analysis, you're dysfunctional, and have a tendency to endorse self destructive behaviors; this is all a tragic byproduct of feeling like a lesser form of life compared to Northern Europeans. I mean why wouldn't you? You've had them tell you day in and day out of your upbringing in Canada that their environmentally destructive, resource wasting way of life is the pinnacle of human progress and advancement; you never questioned it because they imposed this standard standard upon every aspect of life. So here you are with this complex, this persistent anxiety which cannot be tamed. You hate your own existence, and life itself and want so bad to desecrate it in whatever way possible to appease this resentment; you're ostracized by Pakhtuns, people you want so badly to be apart of because of the historical prestige of resisting Europeans, all the while wanting them to succumb to Europeans to compensate this feeling of inadequacy. You're a tortured soul, with mental illness. Are you sure it's not you who needs a competent psychiatrist here?

SX I am impressed. I appreciate such well written position statement from you. Just a correction, I was born and raised in Pakhtunkwha and you can safely put me in the blessed in USA. Never have I ever been put down by anyone in america or pakhtunkhwa, and no my repulsion of religion as practiced in pakhtunkhwa does not come from being sodomized in a madrassa (like countless of my pashtoon brothers) but because of the suffocation it has created in watan, and yes I was a victim of that suffocation.

This is a useless forum, of no meaning what so ever, in the lives of even one pakhtoon. I know guys like me dont roam the streets of peshawar in droves, but to think that they dont even exist is equally erroneous.

You have as much of a right to see your version of the world as I have to see mine.

Beliefs are the foundation of our cognition. Every second I make an assumption as to how the next moment will be. And if it is not, I adjust my predicting paradigm. The problem arises when a whole nation engages in behavior where the assumptions are unverifiable but the cost of its enactment is over overwhelmingly burdensome. If it was a mere 10-15 % in a monastery one could let it go, but when the whole culture is paralyzed in a future fantasy that never shakes them up as it is unverifiable, the folly goes on and on.

Now if you saw your whole family in such a strange state, would you not wish to shake them up a little so they wake up, enjoy the morning sunrise, smell the roses, cuddle with a loved one, enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm( a tedious exercise mind you something akin to catholic guilt rather than human compassion).

And since when is being present in the moment and having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verifiable events in life get western ownership. Every animal that ever roamed the earth has such sense. Our own culture is full of short statements that emphasize some such nuggets of wisdom.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-08-2011, 12:10 AM
We have two Gulalais.

-Gulalai = Muslim
gulalai= Atheist, since she attends an Ivy-league, she is busy with school.

Thanks for the clarification. Ill see you guys in a few days... I'm off to Atlanta tomorrow. Till then Edge, you can take care of these automaton clowns. After all, its the same script they read from... it was communism in Abdul Samad Achekzai's day when he was all over Lenin's crotch junk and now booom, its secularism. Next its going to be bangra-ism with India's rise (after all they simultaneously endorse a pashtun state yet are a part of Pakistan's government). I think they manufacture these guys at a factory outside of Quetta. At the end of the assembly line, they emulate the building of an ice cream sundae. On the ice cream sundae they put that maraschino cherry on top... these guys wear get some kind of goofy red cap.

Fairly interesting how they claim that a Pashtun born abroad cannot understand their struggle... yet David Petreus can gaze deep into Baygham's eyes and see what Baygham and his village want and need. They somehow understand what the Qandahar villager wants more than the villager himself:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/07/in-afghanistans-east-taliban-seen-as-morally-superior-to-karzai/ (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/07/in-afghanistans-east-taliban-seen-as-morally-superior-to-karzai/)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/21/AR2010112104570.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/21/AR2010112104570.html)


riiiiiight. My hope is that with their skewed sense of reality we can line these guys up and ask them to jump up. Since in their bizarro world right is left and down is up they might do us a favor and fall into a ravine or gully somewhere.

Wrayun
02-08-2011, 12:13 AM
I think that you were trying to give them a Jon Stewartesque style wake up call to the contradictions inherent in their positions, but they used that against you and attacked your form of delivery. I made that hard for them when I utilized Ahmad Shah Baba... all they could say was that Islamacized someone who had previously Islamacized himself. Wait, gulalai is an athiest? Not that it matters, but am I reading this right?

Yeah, I got a lot of slack for that, particularly from the highly moral atheists.. lulz..... how dare I blaspheme?

BarakzaiAbdali
02-08-2011, 12:13 AM
SX I am impressed. I appreciate such well written position statement from you. Just a correction, I was born and raised in Pakhtunkwha and you can safely put me in the blessed in USA. Never have I ever been put down by anyone in america or pakhtunkhwa, and no my repulsion of religion as practiced in pakhtunkhwa does not come from being sodomized in a madrassa (like countless of my pashtoon brothers) but because of the suffocation it has created in watan, and yes I was a victim of that suffocation.

This is a useless forum, of no meaning what so ever, in the lives of even one pakhtoon. I know guys like me dont roam the streets of peshawar in droves, but to think that they dont even exist is equally erroneous.

You have as much of a right to see your version of the world as I have to see mine.

Beliefs are the foundation of our cognition. Every second I make an assumption as to how the next moment will be. And if it is not, I adjust my predicting paradigm. They problem arises when a whole nation engages in behavior where the assumptions are unverifiable but the cost of its enactment is over overwhelmingly burdensome. If it was a mere 10-15 % in a monastery one could let it go, but when the whole culture is paralyzed in a future fantasy that never shakes them up as it is unverifiable, the folly goes on and on.

Now if you saw your whole family in such a strange state, would you not wish to shake them up a little so they wake up, enjoy the morning sunrise, smell the roses, cuddle with a loved one, enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm.

And since when is being present in the moment and having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verifiable events in life get western ownership. Every animal that ever roamed the earth has such sense, that I believe is before western hegemony. Our own culture is full of short statements that emphasize some such nuggets of wisdom.


Easy answer. Interventionalism does nothing of the sort. It breeds reactionary mentalities. Take a look at the development of the Massachussetts bay colony. It was a theocracy under the great grandfather of nathaniel hawthorne. The Puritans practice strict Christian theocracy to the point of killing droves of women for being witches. Left alone, it progressed to the point that Hawthorne the younger is constantly apologizing for the actions of his ancestors in nearly all his writings.

All your interventionalism does is undo whatever idiotic gains you think you will garner by forcing your "paradigms" on a people. What is sickening is that you use American boys and girls to do this at the barrell of the gun without being able to do a damn thing yourself.

randolph85
02-08-2011, 12:13 AM
show me an example of the watan without islam. i am not talking about this new wave of foreign influenced extremism, but any history or form of our culture which was no influenced or driven by islam.

its ironic, if u dislike islam, then u must really hate pashtunwali.

besides afghan communists or pashtun nationalists within the confines of their mansions, ur ideas would be deemed as hostile to pashtuns.

Wrayun
02-08-2011, 12:15 AM
You know what's interesting...most of these guys (secular atheists) were around when all the theists here were Quran and Hadith quoters. They were having a blast with them, as anyone would...even I do. Now that we have a few thinkers...I don't see them around.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-08-2011, 12:17 AM
show me an example of the watan without islam. i am not talking about this new wave of foreign influenced extremism, but any history or form of our culture which was no influenced or driven by islam.

its ironic, if u dislike islam, then u must really hate pashtunwali.

besides afghan communists or pashtun nationalists within the confines of their mansions, ur ideas would be deemed as hostile to pashtuns.


See you in a few days. Just refer to every other rehashed argument these guys have used and abused in the past. At least he and Osho are beginning to crack and admit that they comprise a minority subsegment of the greater whole at best. Thats progress.

Parsistani
02-08-2011, 12:18 AM
I think Islam has been Arabized and it\'s not what it is today. If you read our Persian history you can see what these Arabs did under the context of bringing Islam.

randolph85
02-08-2011, 12:19 AM
I think Islam has been Arabized and it\'s not what it is today. If you read our Persian history you can see what these Arabs did under the context of bringing Islam.

how does a religion, which has been the same since day 1 become arabized?

randolph85
02-08-2011, 12:20 AM
See you in a few days. Just refer to every other rehashed argument these guys have used and abused in the past. At least he and Osho are beginning to crack and admit that they comprise a minority subsegment of the greater whole at best. Thats progress.



i like these guys, they keep me on my toes and give me something to do. take care and see u later.

Parsistani
02-08-2011, 12:21 AM
how does a religion, which has been the same since day 1 become arabized?

You Pashtuns just don\'t get it.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 12:28 AM
Great hedging answer.

I read that back and forth with Wrayun way back when. Do you live on some Pashtun colony on Mars comprised of folks that have lost complete touch with reality?

What kind of sick nut case are you? Oh right, the kind that somehow ignores American, Russian, and every other nation's textbooks on Najib and somehow turns a ******* into a saint.

People like you ought to be airdropped right into the middle of Kandahar so you can see how long you last when you mouth your filth in the open. That, my friend, would be the ultimate real world test of your ideology.

See how long you last in any village chowk with a loud horn when you say what you do. At least your colleague Osho had enough sense to admit that the Pashtun majority think of you guys as depraved automatons mouthing the same rhetoric as if you read off the same script.

Why are you so "garam". Sarra khra wrora, I have no intention of fighting with you or any one else here. I have my point of view and you have yours.

How many of kandaharis will let you put a stent through the groin of there daughter/sister. Does that make it right if she dies with preventable disease that you could have expertly cured.

You take a loud horn and say, I took mullah omars sister to the cath lab and cleaned her groin with betadine, (just verbatum translate the cath report in pashto) and I will see how long you stand in the chowk in kandahar. And if that does not get you killed narrate a colonoscopy report on mullah baradar, he is likely due for one. LOL

With village idiots you talk at their level. If you are that idiot please let me know so I make corrections to my reports.

randolph85
02-08-2011, 12:28 AM
You Pashtuns just don\'t get it.


explain it to me since i am just a dumb pashtun and persian nationalists seem to have such a handle on broad religious understanding. go ahead and tell me why an arabized religion is against ethnic nationalism.

Parsistani
02-08-2011, 12:31 AM
explain it to me since i am just a dumb pashtun and persian nationalists seem to have such a handle on broad religious understanding. go ahead and tell me why an arabized religion is against ethnic nationalism.
Islam has also been used by Arabs to represent Arab nationalism and to keep Arab language strong. Look at how when Arabs invaded Persia they burned our books and they killed our intellectuals. It was Saudi who funded the Taliban

Baygham
02-08-2011, 12:34 AM
Islam has also been used by Arabs to represent Arab nationalism and to keep Arab language strong. Look at how when Arabs invaded Persia they burned our books and they killed our intellectuals. It was Saudi who funded the Taliban

I am with you bro, but just let me know one thing before I march in your company. Which religion do you subscribe to.

I do agree this arab nationalism has killed not only persian heritage, it has killed pashtoon heritage as well.

randolph85
02-08-2011, 12:34 AM
Islam has also been used by Arabs to represent Arab nationalism and to keep Arab language strong. Look at how when Arabs invaded Persia they burned our books and they killed our intellectuals. It was Saudi who funded the Taliban


so the learning of the language of the quran is nationalism to u? if someone wants to read rumi, would u recommend a foreign language or farsi?

how did the arabs kill ur intellectuals when persian muslim scholars were the backbone of islamic works? tell me the people the arabs killed, go ahead.

and what is ur point that the saudis funded the taliban? so the did pakis. the russians, indians, and iranians funded the northern alliance. countries with interests fund movements who are friendly to them, is that such a big suprise to u?

Wrayun
02-08-2011, 12:37 AM
Islam has also been used by Arabs to represent Arab nationalism and to keep Arab language strong. Look at how when Arabs invaded Persia they burned our books and they killed our intellectuals. It was Saudi who funded the Taliban

Really? How many non-Arab states today speak Arabic? Majority of the Muslims today speak their own respective languages, and majority of the Muslims are not even Arabs. Arabs, that includes Arabized Arabs, make only 13% of the Muslims.

And what Islam did for Persian...how can you forget that Persian, became the lingua franca of many Islamic states, including the area which today is divided into Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Muslim regions of India. Persians also use Islam to export their culture, under the banner of Shiaism. Sunnism exports Arabism, particularly the Salafi types. Deobandi and Bravelis export their own respective cultures/heritage using Islam. So all in all, every one has used Islam to export their culture and heritage. Even Taliban exported Pukhtoonism, using Islam. Don't take my word for it, that's what all the Parsiwanan said and still say till this day.

If anything, Islam and Quran, exports Abrahamic/Hebrew beliefs and traditions. Islam was as alien to Arabs as it is to Persians and Pukhtoons.

Get a book.

Parsistani
02-08-2011, 12:41 AM
I am with you bro, but just let me know one thing before I march in your company. Which religion do you subscribe to.

I do agree this arab nationalism has killed not only persian heritage, it has killed pashtoon heritage as well.

please read my article in your pashtun culture section.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-08-2011, 01:11 AM
Why are you so "garam". Sarra khra wrora, I have no intention of fighting with you or any one else here. I have my point of view and you have yours.

How many of kandaharis will let you put a stent through the groin of there daughter/sister. Does that make it right if she dies with preventable disease that you could have expertly cured.

You take a loud horn and say, I took mullah omars sister to the cath lab and cleaned her groin with betadine, (just verbatum translate the cath report in pashto) and I will see how long you stand in the chowk in kandahar. And if that does not get you killed narrate a colonoscopy report on mullah baradar, he is likely due for one. LOL

With village idiots you talk at their level. If you are that idiot please let me know so I make corrections to my reports.

Actually on the medical mission through Waziristan, through the proper channels and through what even the Americans understand is utilizing a cultural respect, I was able to deal with many many women and that was an american medical student doing an abroad rotation.

Your question is nonsensical. In America, if I catheterized Pamela Anderson and then stood in the Chowk in front of her husbands house announcing I had done that, I think he would be offended and might attack me as well.

I am merely pointing out that Toramana, and perhaps yourself back the US incursions. Have you studied your history? Do you not yet see a pattern emerging? This is not, as the ANP chapters would love the populace to believe, some sort of new inflammatory reaction where the Mullah class popped out of nowhere.

Just as the body has its B memory cells... so too does the Pashtun have his patterns of uprising. Mir Wais Neka -->secured a fatwa for war; Ahmad Shah Baba --> secured a fatwa for war and was a student of Shah Waliullah; Wazir Akbar --> referred to his hit and run campaigns on the British as jihad and his troops as the ghazis. Ahmad Yusufzai the barelvi --> Unified jihad against the Sikhs. Amanullah the Kamalist even called his Anglo Afghan wars a jihaad and rallied the Wazirs to his banner.

So how can you as a physician not understand that for about the past 1000 years or so the Pashtuns, like many Muslim cultures, respond to outside invaders (germs) the same way that our body does (it has a memorized pathway).

To me, its like you mix up cause and effect. You cry out against what you see is extremism and abuse against females etc, yet that to me, is like calling the fever and chills the cause, and the infection the effect.

Think about all the mess of invaders in that area in just the last 300 years (the Iranians against Mir Wais, then again under Nadir Shah, the Mughals, the British, the Russians, and now the Americans).

Just as the Americans rally around God, Flag, and Country when they saw the Red Menace and now what they call Islamo Fascism... so to do the Pashtuns answer the threat of an outside invader by rallying in a defensive poster (i.e. defensive jihaad without the need of a caliph) around their religious establishment.

Basically, to me its like you as a fellow physician are working with me... we have a septic patient and the nidus is known... the pathogen is in the lungs. I want to implement Early Goal Directed Therapy ala Manny Rivers and you want to give the poor patient just Tylenol alone. So you forget the antibiotics, you forget sustaining his MAPs... you basically forgot that the guy has a germ that is causing his body to respond in the way that it does.

More than that, what you promote, is bloody interventionalism that just gaurantees an endless war of attrition that ensures yet another generation of Pashtuns has to be the body's B cell response.

"Invariably, when there is an emergence of extreme violence within Pashtun society, their clergy will be deeply involved. The exact opposite
is true when the Pashtuns are at peace: the mullah class is quiet and remains within its mosques and madrassas."

Here is a reference with some historical insight.

http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/PDF-TAC/Mad%20Mullahs.pdf (http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/PDF-TAC/Mad%20Mullahs.pdf)

By the way, sorry for the tone, Im just sick and tired of the same rhetoric devoid of evidence again and again and again and again and again and again from the nationaleestas. Its all about pulling America into your struggles (even though Afghanistan proper has no connection to your tribe, clan, or zmakaa) and having them bomb the hell out of us to further secular nationalist ends that the people just do not want. With sustaining this bloody cycle and pulling Bob, Tom, Steve, and Tim who were doing just fine in Tennessee into that BS so that innocent Americans can kill innocent Afgahns while the ANP and Afghan Mellat stand on the sidelines watching is horrendous and sickening.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 01:42 AM
Actually on the medical mission through Waziristan, through the proper channels and through what even the Americans understand is utilizing a cultural respect, I was able to deal with many many women and that was an american medical student doing an abroad rotation.

Your question is nonsensical. In America, if I catheterized Pamela Anderson and then stood in the Chowk in front of her husbands house announcing I had done that, I think he would be offended and might attack me as well.

I am merely pointing out that Toramana, and perhaps yourself back the US incursions. Have you studied your history? Do you not yet see a pattern emerging? This is not, as the ANP chapters would love the populace to believe, some sort of new inflammatory reaction where the Mullah class popped out of nowhere.

Just as the body has its B memory cells... so too does the Pashtun have his patterns of uprising. Mir Wais Neka -->secured a fatwa for war; Ahmad Shah Baba --> secured a fatwa for war and was a student of Shah Waliullah; Wazir Akbar --> referred to his hit and run campaigns on the British as jihad and his troops as the ghazis. Ahmad Yusufzai the barelvi --> Unified jihad against the Sikhs. Amanullah the Kamalist even called his Anglo Afghan wars a jihaad and rallied the Wazirs to his banner.

So how can you as a physician not understand that for about the past 1000 years or so the Pashtuns, like many Muslim cultures, respond to outside invaders (germs) the same way that our body does (it has a memorized pathway).

To me, its like you mix up cause and effect. You cry out against what you see is extremism and abuse against females etc, yet that to me, is like calling the fever and chills the cause, and the infection the effect.

Think about all the mess of invaders in that area in just the last 300 years (the Iranians against Mir Wais, then again under Nadir Shah, the Mughals, the British, the Russians, and now the Americans).

Just as the Americans rally around God, Flag, and Country when they saw the Red Menace and now what they call Islamo Fascism... so to do the Pashtuns answer the threat of an outside invader by rallying in a defensive poster (i.e. defensive jihaad without the need of a caliph) around their religious establishment.

Basically, to me its like you as a fellow physician are working with me... we have a septic patient and the nidus is known... the pathogen is in the lungs. I want to implement Early Goal Directed Therapy ala Manny Rivers and you want to give the poor patient just Tylenol alone. So you forget the antibiotics, you forget sustaining his MAPs... you basically forgot that the guy has a germ that is causing his body to respond in the way that it does.

More than that, what you promote, is bloody interventionalism that just gaurantees an endless war of attrition that ensures yet another generation of Pashtuns has to be the body's B cell response.

"Invariably, when there is an emergence of extreme violence within Pashtun society, their clergy will be deeply involved. The exact opposite
is true when the Pashtuns are at peace: the mullah class is quiet and remains within its mosques and madrassas."

Here is a reference with some historical insight.

http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/PDF-TAC/Mad%20Mullahs.pdf (http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/PDF-TAC/Mad%20Mullahs.pdf)

By the way, sorry for the tone, Im just sick and tired of the same rhetoric devoid of evidence again and again and again and again and again and again from the nationaleestas. Its all about pulling America into your struggles (even though Afghanistan proper has no connection to your tribe, clan, or zmakaa) and having them bomb the hell out of us to further secular nationalist ends that the people just do not want. With sustaining this bloody cycle and pulling Bob, Tom, Steve, and Tim who were doing just fine in Tennessee into that BS so that innocent Americans can kill innocent Afgahns while the ANP and Afghan Mellat stand on the sidelines watching is horrendous and sickening.

Things have changed, look at eygpt. Its 5000+ years history they have never had non authoritarian rule. And what is the demand now in the recent uprising.

Muhammad himself was just one person. When he stood against prevailing pagan doctrines of millenia. So what if the pashtoons were savages once, pashtoons have fought for sikhs, hindus, pagans, iranians, mughals, russians, arabs, punjabis, english, and now americans. Even your name sake abdali was once a ghilzai prisoner and would have died in the gallows if not for persian conquest. Our khushal khan himself was a paid vassal of mughals whom latter turned his own son against him.

so now we take money from this and that, nothing has changed except the world.

The pashtoons are a weak, small but significant group of people in todays world, The world is not going to allow them to maintain there loot and plunder ways of past. You cannot raid india or persia now. Now you work like a dog just like the chinese and indians and compete in global arena, one step at a time.

This is a time to change our ways not pour more gasoline on ourselves so we combust faster.

And having lived amongst the religion wheelers and dealers in pakhtunkhwa, I know how courageous they are and who will sell for what. Essentially the majority have no moral basis of existence (including the ANP leadership). Those that cherish religion truly don't mix it with worldly gains and are innocent bystanders and equally exploited. A very small but alive subset, want a change, away from the use of religion fear mongering, anti western, anti indian bull crap. They had not seen an american in swabi or swat, yet they are exploited worse than those living in jalalabad.

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 11:03 AM
I am with you bro, but just let me know one thing before I march in your company. Which religion do you subscribe to.

I do agree this arab nationalism has killed not only persian heritage, it has killed pashtoon heritage as well.


how do you kill Pashtoon heritage when you find Pashtoons retaining almost all of their historical values and traits for extensive periods of time even till this day?

Sounds like orientalist/imperialist divide and rule babble.

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 11:08 AM
Islam has also been used by Arabs to represent Arab nationalism and to keep Arab language strong. Look at how when Arabs invaded Persia they burned our books and they killed our intellectuals. It was Saudi who funded the Taliban
'

Is that why Islaam went up against the Arabian cultural establishment and altered all the Ethnic customs and values that were held by Arabs of that time, including their religion? Why would they do that if they're out to promote Arab supremacy?

Iran is right now funding the Taliban, what's your point?

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 11:12 AM
You Pashtuns just don\'t get it.


We get it, persian nationalists who have an inferiority complex because the empire they adored which was rife with corruption, perversion and immorality was purged are trying hard to play the victim's role. Let's not forget the fact how Persian rulers have historically tried to make Pashtoons bow to Persian society and to exterminate the language and values of Pashtoons.

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 11:20 AM
I am with you bro, but just let me know one thing before I march in your company. Which religion do you subscribe to.

I do agree this arab nationalism has killed not only persian heritage, it has killed pashtoon heritage as well.


What a disgraceful display of spinelessness and disingenuousness ; one hand posturing yourself as a Pashtun Nationalist; then seeking kinship with "Persian Nationalists" who have demonstratively throughout history shown more enmity, attempted tyrannized and sought to destroy Pashtoons than any Arab has ever done in any evidence of history. You'll forsake even your false claim of Pashtoon nationalism just to go against Islaam. This lends credence to exactly what I have been saying; that your Nationalism is really just a pretense for an anti Islamic agenda. And who funds such anti islamic agendas than Capitalist Imperialists?

Baygham
02-08-2011, 01:09 PM
What a disgraceful display of spinelessness and disingenuousness ; one hand posturing yourself as a Pashtun Nationalist; then seeking kinship with "Persian Nationalists" who have demonstratively throughout history shown more enmity, attempted tyrannized and sought to destroy Pashtoons than any Arab has ever done in any evidence of history. You'll forsake even your false claim of Pashtoon nationalism just to go against Islaam. This lends credence to exactly what I have been saying; that your Nationalism is really just a pretense for an anti Islamic agenda. And who funds such anti islamic agendas than Capitalist Imperialists?

Pashtoon nationalist is your label, not mine. Persiwans are our brothers and neighbours. We will find a way to live in harmony with one another. We do not have such relations with say the chinese or the arabs or nubians in africa. We wish them well and only are upset if they interfere in our affairs by exporting deadly ideologies. If iran is doing the same to parsiwans and that causes more turmoil than shame on that too. Pakistan has been doing the same for decades.

In the end we will have to live with each other and that requires that we stop dying for outsiders. Since most of the turmoil is religious, stop dying for arabs first, than iran, than others. There are sunni parsiwans too, they wont want iranian hegemony over them.

In any case things in pakhtunkhwa are a touch different. we have a lot more structure and capacity to integrate globally. as things stand this american presence can be pure Gold for us. Now a little change of kaaba and we will be all set.LOL

graveyardofempires
02-08-2011, 01:13 PM
^
^
Baygham you are one sick person

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 01:29 PM
Pashtoon nationalist is your label, not mine. Persiwans are our brothers and neighbours. We will find a way to live in harmony with one another. We do not have such relations with say the chinese or the arabs or nubians in africa. We wish them well and only are upset if they interfere in our affairs by exporting deadly ideologies. If iran is doing the same to parsiwans and that causes more turmoil than shame on that too. Pakistan has been doing the same for decades.

In the end we will have to live with each other and that requires that we stop dying for outsiders. Since most of the turmoil is religious, stop dying for arabs first, than iran, than others. There are sunni parsiwans too, they wont want iranian hegemony over them.

In any case things in pakhtunkhwa are a touch different. we have a lot more structure and capacity to integrate globally. as things stand this american presence can be pure Gold for us. Now a little change of kaaba and we will be all set.LOL


You missed my point entirely; my argument wasnt against Persians or Persian culture, nor was it based on some farcical sectarian conflicts between Sunni and Shi'a. I adore much of Persian culture, especially during the Islamic Era when Persian society really shined in it's intellectual life in comparison to their persistent humiliation in the Achamenid and Sassanid era. I have relatives who are parsiwan.

I used the term Persian Nationalist for these Perso-Centric thinking individuals such as Parsistanti, take a good look at his arguments, both on this forum and outside of the forum on the internet, as others on this forum who is familiar with the propaganda of this character. He wishes for extermination of Pashtoons. Their heros are individuals under whom the Pashtoons had not perceived conflicts with as you view with Arabs, but defacto conflicts where they sought by explicit policy to eradicate Pashtoon society on every level. I too see the possibility of living in harmony with Persians, I do not buy into these Iranian Hegemony or Arab Hegemony deal based on Shi'ism or Sunnism; that's all Imperialist smoke and mirrors. My point was this false victimization of Persian- Nationalists was used by their Rulers against Pashtoons historically. did you forget the Safawids and Qajars?

We not only have relation with Arabs, we're more similar to Arabs than we are Persians, in so much our customs and lifestyle is concerned, because we lived a similar lifestyle of Nomadism historically. The only agenda that thinks the "American presence" is pure gold is one that seeks the imperialism of the European. If that's your Ka'aba, then you're enemy of mankind nevermind Pashtoons.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 01:59 PM
You missed my point entirely; my argument wasnt against Persians or Persian culture, nor was it based on some farcical sectarian conflicts between Sunni and Shi'a. I adore much of Persian culture, especially during the Islamic Era when Persian society really shined in it's intellectual life in comparison to their persistent humiliation in the Achamenid and Sassanid era. I have relatives who are parsiwan.

I used the term Persian Nationalist for these Perso-Centric thinking individuals such as Parsistanti, take a good look at his arguments, both on this forum and outside of the forum on the internet, as others on this forum who is familiar with the propaganda of this character. He wishes for extermination of Pashtoons. Their heros are individuals under whom the Pashtoons had not perceived conflicts with as you view with Arabs, but defacto conflicts where they sought by explicit policy to eradicate Pashtoon society on every level. I too see the possibility of living in harmony with Persians, I do not buy into these Iranian Hegemony or Arab Hegemony deal based on Shi'ism or Sunnism; that's all Imperialist smoke and mirrors. My point was this false victimization of Persian- Nationalists was used by their Rulers against Pashtoons historically. did you forget the Safawids and Qajars?

We not only have relation with Arabs, we're more similar to Arabs than we are Persians, in so much our customs and lifestyle is concerned, because we lived a similar lifestyle of Nomadism historically. The only agenda that thinks the "American presence" is pure gold is one that seeks the imperialism of the European. If that's your Ka'aba, then you're enemy of mankind nevermind Pashtoons.

Safawids, qajars, mughals, even colonial british have nothing to do with things as they stand today. Secondly there may be nomads roaming around in small groups, the majority of pashtoons are and have been for a very long time neither nomads nor have the nomad mentality. We love our land and stick to it for dear life.

Just like egypt the new leadership coming out of pakhtunkhwa will be globally oriented and not kaaba centric. This is not wishful thinking or some colonial scheme, its just the way thing are.

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 02:47 PM
Safawids, qajars, mughals, even colonial british have nothing to do with things as they stand today. Secondly there may be nomads roaming around in small groups, the majority of pashtoons are and have been for a very long time neither nomads nor have the nomad mentality. We love our land and stick to it for dear life.

Just like egypt the new leadership coming out of pakhtunkhwa will be globally oriented and not kaaba centric. This is not wishful thinking or some colonial scheme, its just the way thing are.


On the contrary, they have everything to do with the way things stand today; because it was the events established and solidified by these groups which are why we are experiencing the things we. Do you honestly believe that the Imperialist societies are where they are because of hard work? No, it was through corruption, crooked practices and destroying the natural balances of life which exist for people across the world that they were able to acquire this immoral status of exploitation.

Nomadism plays a central role in Pashtoon society and always have even as Pashtoons have became sedentary; the customs, practices and ideals have basis our nomadic experiences. Much like Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula have adopted sedentary lives but still retain their roots in nomadism. The actual practice of Nomadism amongst Afghan Pashtoons is ostensibly high, to regard this as merely some narrow margin is just evidence that one either is not familiar/apart of Pashtoon culture or simply in denial. Also, the love of the Earth and the land is precisely rooted in the nomadic relationships; not exclusive from it; denying this while claiming to "Love land for dear life" is purely disingenuous without being able to identify this trait and such notions are born of lacking familiarity.

This bizarre dichotomy played out with fabricated terminology such as "Ka'aba Centric" and "Globally Oriented" is something purely manufactured by Imperial rhetoric and orientalism; also capitalist Neocolonalism known today as "globalisaion". The entire paradigm of what defines this strata is imperial at it's core. To say it isn't is merely out right lying. Like I said before ; the only agenda which wishes these Euro-manufctured modes of what progres is; are not those who want to benefit humanity or Pashtoons, but the corrupt destruction of our planet and the dignity of human life at the hands of Europeans.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 03:29 PM
On the contrary, they have everything to do with the way things stand today; because it was the events established and solidified by these groups which are why we are experiencing the things we. Do you honestly believe that the Imperialist societies are where they are because of hard work? No, it was through corruption, crooked practices and destroying the natural balances of life which exist for people across the world that they were able to acquire this immoral status of exploitation.

Nomadism plays a central role in Pashtoon society and always have even as Pashtoons have became sedentary; the customs, practices and ideals have basis our nomadic experiences. Much like Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula have adopted sedentary lives but still retain their roots in nomadism. The actual practice of Nomadism amongst Afghan Pashtoons is ostensibly high, to regard this as merely some narrow margin is just evidence that one either is not familiar/apart of Pashtoon culture or simply in denial. Also, the love of the Earth and the land is precisely rooted in the nomadic relationships; not exclusive from it; denying this while claiming to "Love land for dear life" is purely disingenuous without being able to identify this trait and such notions are born of lacking familiarity.

This bizarre dichotomy played out with fabricated terminology such as "Ka'aba Centric" and "Globally Oriented" is something purely manufactured by Imperial rhetoric and orientalism; also capitalist Neocolonalism known today as "globalisaion". The entire paradigm of what defines this strata is imperial at it's core. To say it isn't is merely out right lying. Like I said before ; the only agenda which wishes these Euro-manufctured modes of what progres is; are not those who want to benefit humanity or Pashtoons, but the corrupt destruction of our planet and the dignity of human life at the hands of Europeans.

I just came from pakhtunkhwa two weeks ago, met with over a 100 small scale to large scale wheelers and deelers, I saw not a single nomad. Not only that none of their immediate ancestors were nomads. Now if in the thirteenth century some idiot was grazing sheep, than so be it. But the majority and that is greater than 99% in KP are not and have never been nomads. We do not have nomadic ideology or even minuscule preferences that we would share with such. Get over this nomad kinship with arabia.

None cared if the kaaba faced north or south, they were simple people and wanted a God acceptable to kin and family and to make a living. They found themselves trapped in an abyss and most had no clue how to climb out. They were ready for change, good, bad, ugly anything but something. They had been exploited by friends and foes alike and they were exhausted.

All they want is a decent living, relevance in a changing world, better standard of living and less exploitation. Arabian honor was on none of their minds. All would be OK with a less toxic fabrication of Gods and hurs that does not hinder the other more mundane things.

I did not see a form, like the one in Eygpt, that requires a lot more education and a lot more disposable cash, none yet prevalent in KP, but it is changing in that direction. And afghanistan will follow.

Pashtoons understand might is right, they lived by exploitation and mayhem for centuries. We were not some humanistic earth loving greens in harmony with the ecosystem. We were and sometimes still are savages by any account. It served us well when other bigger savages come to conquer, but is now a hinderance. Like the Samurai its time to go and change cultural dependence on that.

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 06:22 PM
I just came from pakhtunkhwa two weeks ago, met with over a 100 small scale to large scale wheelers and deelers, I saw not a single nomad. Not only that none of their immediate ancestors were nomads. Now if in the thirteenth century some idiot was grazing sheep, than so be it. But the majority and that is greater than 99% in KP are not and have never been nomads. We do not have nomadic ideology or even minuscule preferences that we would share with such. Get over this nomad kinship with arabia.

None cared if the kaaba faced north or south, they were simple people and wanted a God acceptable to kin and family and to make a living. They found themselves trapped in an abyss and most had no clue how to climb out. They were ready for change, good, bad, ugly anything but something. They had been exploited by friends and foes alike and they were exhausted.

All they want is a decent living, relevance in a changing world, better standard of living and less exploitation. Arabian honor was on none of their minds. All would be OK with a less toxic fabrication of Gods and hurs that does not hinder the other more mundane things.

I did not see a form, like the one in Eygpt, that requires a lot more education and a lot more disposable cash, none yet prevalent in KP, but it is changing in that direction. And afghanistan will follow.

Pashtoons understand might is right, they lived by exploitation and mayhem for centuries. We were not some humanistic earth loving greens in harmony with the ecosystem. We were and sometimes still are savages by any account. It served us well when other bigger savages come to conquer, but is now a hinderance. Like the Samurai its time to go and change cultural dependence on that.



The reason you didn't see any nomads is because Pakhtunkhwah is not located in the UK, Canada or the U.S. it's located on the fringe of South Central Asia. Nomads are all over the region and even have political representation in Afghanistan. Powanda/Kuchi are stilll, highly present, there are something like 3 Million Pashtun/Pakhtun Nomads in Afghanistan alone. That's nearly 1/3rd of Pashtuns there. Your lack of knowledge of this is because you're from a culture completely alien not only to Pashtoons but to the Middle East and Central Asia as well.

The point here wasn't to embrace this fascination for Nomadism; personally I think Nomads live the most ecologically sensible lifestyle, but I digress. What my point was is to demonstrate how these arbitrary lines you draw are totally false. While I do see parallels with Persian cultures and Pashtoons, for obvious linguistic connections, the dress and behavior of a Yemeni Arab, including dances and customs, moral ideals and simply way of life in general are more analagous with Pashtoons and vice versa than Pashtoons are with Persians. In fact very little of Pashtoon society has analog with Persian culture. Yemenis have their own type of "Pashtoonwali" based on similar lines. This isn't due to an Arab invasion or cultural subjugation; but just natural relationships with the ecological order. Granted there are ethic groups who share comparable degrees of affiliation, such as Kurds, Lurs, Balouch, Qashqai (possibly related to Ghilzai Pashtuns); but the point was to demonstrate is the Middle East and Central Asia have been so historically interwoven and has had such a high degree of cross cultural infiltration over centuries; that everyone from Marrakesch to Kashgar are bonded our brethren. That's just how it is.

Once again all that is being peddled here are these false dichotomies and shallow attempts at emotional anecdoting. What does the direction of the Ka'aba have to do with the simplicity of life of people? Surely people from Marrakesch to Kashgar have for the most part lived simple lives and still knew of the direction of the Ka'aba. It's not something that required extensive sophistication. IN fact Islaam was a people's movement from the get go, it was based on the principle of a simple life. This portrayal of "simple people" and other symbolic mnemonics here seems to be nothing other than an emotive ploy; but one which is extremely transparent. As if somehow it was to trying to feign legitimacy by saying "look see, even the simple people want imperial culture, they need the Handsome Blond Haired Blue eyed Hero depicted in Hollywood films to come and rescue them from the tyranny of their obscure and archaic religion and culture. This is an age old tactic of Orientalist mythology; and yet you accuse others of relying on fairy tales? You can't smokescreen this under the seemingly ambiguous rhetoric of change, we know what paradgm you're referriing to when you say "change"; a destructive, dysfunctional capitalist one. We all want a decent standard of living; but does decent standard of living mean having food and hygiene or a cyborg driven Sci Fi Technocratic wet dream that you seem to endorse? The distnctions need to be made here. Loosely veiled remarks like "relevance in a changing world"; are almost always said in context to cow towing mainstream Global Capitalist Framework; because let's be honest here any global disparity that exists today is intrinsically tied to displacement and disruption of people's natural ecological and economic relationships which has manufactured these issues; what else would they promote than than compliance to capitalist norms as a knife around people's throats to be alleviated. And hence why your gleeful comments celebrating Capitalist Hegemoni vis' a vis America/NATO etc, with your loins tingling over their reward for your services is evidence that Pashtoons were never your concern in the first place; serving the agenda of Northern Europeans is.

I think you fail to understand the revolution in Egypt; the Egyptians are rejecting the Capitalist Paradigm, not embracing it, and this is what is happening globally. No one wants technocracy, why would they? It violates all of our natural instincts and faculties. It's an unsustainable modus operandi which has only succeeded in creating a dysfunctional civilization. As someone who lives in the belly of the beast ; I don't see how your hallucination of Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwah for that matter becoming a bastion for Ferangi enterprise will come to pass; if the ferangi order itself is falling apart from within, the likliness of what you want to come to pass, is slim to none. Sorry to break the news to you.

Environmentalism and Ecology has nothing to do with some Commercially friendly status quo endorsed conception of being "green" as you seem to think. Ecosystems are rarely ever "humanistic"; they're based on cycles which incorporate broader relationships than only that. However a lack of humanism is not tantamount to exploitation. Pashtoons were "green" as you seem to portray; but the concept of green here is not the domicile flaccid imagery you're steeped in. Pashtoons never destroyed or impaired the ecological relationships or environment of the planet, Pashtuns simply embroiled in the world with rival forces the way which was normal for most of our Earth's geological history; no ecological balances were disrupted. That's what disntinguishes the neocolonial approach from Islam or the pashtoon one. and why the later have legitimacy and the prior doesn't.

Were these" simple people" ...whispering voices in your head by any chances? I believe that might be where your error lies.

ScimitarXEdge
02-08-2011, 07:38 PM
SX I am impressed. I appreciate such well written position statement from you. Just a correction, I was born and raised in Pakhtunkwha and you can safely put me in the blessed in USA. Never have I ever been put down by anyone in america or pakhtunkhwa, and no my repulsion of religion as practiced in pakhtunkhwa does not come from being sodomized in a madrassa (like countless of my pashtoon brothers) but because of the suffocation it has created in watan, and yes I was a victim of that suffocation.

This is a useless forum, of no meaning what so ever, in the lives of even one pakhtoon. I know guys like me dont roam the streets of peshawar in droves, but to think that they dont even exist is equally erroneous.

You have as much of a right to see your version of the world as I have to see mine.

Beliefs are the foundation of our cognition. Every second I make an assumption as to how the next moment will be. And if it is not, I adjust my predicting paradigm. The problem arises when a whole nation engages in behavior where the assumptions are unverifiable but the cost of its enactment is over overwhelmingly burdensome. If it was a mere 10-15 % in a monastery one could let it go, but when the whole culture is paralyzed in a future fantasy that never shakes them up as it is unverifiable, the folly goes on and on.

Now if you saw your whole family in such a strange state, would you not wish to shake them up a little so they wake up, enjoy the morning sunrise, smell the roses, cuddle with a loved one, enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm( a tedious exercise mind you something akin to catholic guilt rather than human compassion).

And since when is being present in the moment and having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verifiable events in life get western ownership. Every animal that ever roamed the earth has such sense. Our own culture is full of short statements that emphasize some such nuggets of wisdom.


A very touching and emotive response; but sadly that's all it was. There's too many internal contradictions that it can't be intellectually meritable other being some desperate emotional appeal.

According to you resentment towards Islam is not due to being sodomized, but somehow youn made it a point to use that and symbols of Islamic societal institutions in relation to each other. Almost as if to insintuate that pederastry is product of Islamic doctrines; nevermind the fact that you find such incidences a non religion inclined place like a chaikhana, and happens cross culturally, most notably into your Ideological Holy Lands where Imperial Cultures reside. I would figure someone who

The means by which you measure "folly" and in turn your feelings of "suffocation" are based precisely on the false assumptions you wrongly perceive in what's around you. You act as if no Pashtun male who practices Islam, kisses and cherishes his wife and treats her as his beloved, or that somehow smelling roses and enjoying the morning sunrise are somehow loathesome to Muslims and Islam; a theory which has no basis even in the most austere interpretations of Islamic doctrines. Then it becomes clear what the actual central theme of your message is when you wrote;

"enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm".

That perplexed me for a moment, I thought, why would something as innocent as merely spending an evening with friends somehow be deemed loathesome in the Islamic eye? Then it struck me, that an evening with friends is a veiled description for other activities. As vague and abstract the language; logic, social awareness and common sense can give accurately verifiable models of what's being alluded to here. From what that can be extrapolated,it's apparent that this is the attempt equate the Natural and Healthy ways of expression such as love, celebrating nature, with dysfunctional ones for the sake which you portray yourself as "victim" of some Islamic rendition of "catholic guilt" because it inhibits or censures it, as if it feigns legitimacy for why you resent Islaam..

The problem here however isn't Islaam, but rather whatever it is that motivates you to seek your dysfunctional indulgences; you want so badly to believe otherwise. And this Islaamic version of "catholic guilt" you experience isn't because Islaam imposes something that deprives happiness and contentment; it's this desperation to rationalize and deny what your condition. This would clearly create cognitive dissonance; the inner conflict you experience must be immense.

This whole theatrics of the verifiable vs. the unverifiable isn't what's at play here. In Islam , in so much as life and human social order and dealings millenia of anthropological foundations establish what defines and motivates it's principles and framework. Not the nebulous realm of lacking verfiability that you'd like to portray. What's at play is what you perceive as "having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verfiable evens in life"; is something manufactured and fabricated by the Capitalist Hegemonic Framework; and not something which has any intrinsic analog to life except in the form of some deviated instinct. Your "Suffocation" isn't because of Islaam; but much like I said before, the product of letting some artificial construct of progress define your worth in life and driving this discontent. If you want to break free, that's where to start.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 10:13 PM
A very touching and emotive response; but sadly that's all it was. There's too many internal contradictions that it can't be intellectually meritable other being some desperate emotional appeal.

According to you resentment towards Islam is not due to being sodomized, but somehow youn made it a point to use that and symbols of Islamic societal institutions in relation to each other. Almost as if to insintuate that pederastry is product of Islamic doctrines; nevermind the fact that you find such incidences a non religion inclined place like a chaikhana, and happens cross culturally, most notably into your Ideological Holy Lands where Imperial Cultures reside. I would figure someone who

The means by which you measure "folly" and in turn your feelings of "suffocation" are based precisely on the false assumptions you wrongly perceive in what's around you. You act as if no Pashtun male who practices Islam, kisses and cherishes his wife and treats her as his beloved, or that somehow smelling roses and enjoying the morning sunrise are somehow loathesome to Muslims and Islam; a theory which has no basis even in the most austere interpretations of Islamic doctrines. Then it becomes clear what the actual central theme of your message is when you wrote;

"enjoy an evening with friends without doing the math of its effects in the unverifiable realm".

That perplexed me for a moment, I thought, why would something as innocent as merely spending an evening with friends somehow be deemed loathesome in the Islamic eye? Then it struck me, that an evening with friends is a veiled description for other activities. As vague and abstract the language; logic, social awareness and common sense can give accurately verifiable models of what's being alluded to here. From what that can be extrapolated,it's apparent that this is the attempt equate the Natural and Healthy ways of expression such as love, celebrating nature, with dysfunctional ones for the sake which you portray yourself as "victim" of some Islamic rendition of "catholic guilt" because it inhibits or censures it, as if it feigns legitimacy for why you resent Islaam..

The problem here however isn't Islaam, but rather whatever it is that motivates you to seek your dysfunctional indulgences; you want so badly to believe otherwise. And this Islaamic version of "catholic guilt" you experience isn't because Islaam imposes something that deprives happiness and contentment; it's this desperation to rationalize and deny what your condition. This would clearly create cognitive dissonance; the inner conflict you experience must be immense.

This whole theatrics of the verifiable vs. the unverifiable isn't what's at play here. In Islam , in so much as life and human social order and dealings millenia of anthropological foundations establish what defines and motivates it's principles and framework. Not the nebulous realm of lacking verfiability that you'd like to portray. What's at play is what you perceive as "having a cognitive map of your future constantly checked by verfiable evens in life"; is something manufactured and fabricated by the Capitalist Hegemonic Framework; and not something which has any intrinsic analog to life except in the form of some deviated instinct. Your "Suffocation" isn't because of Islaam; but much like I said before, the product of letting some artificial construct of progress define your worth in life and driving this discontent. If you want to break free, that's where to start.

Dear SX, to you every thing is a Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, I told you we in KP dont give two hoots about Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, or punjabic hegemonic or arabian / iranian or whoever elses model or framework.

We are taking of our own framework, what is in our head and what should be in our head, that will make our environment a little better than it is, not the environment in Newyork, not in mecca or palestine, in KP and the surrounding pashtoon areas, that is it. A very narrow area of focus.

Certain frameworks in the head of a pashtoon in KP are not aligned with this basic one step at a time approach to progress in this world, again not in janatul-firdos or other imaginary places like harry potter land, here in the time and space of KP/21st century.

Lastly I would just add one thing, that those growing up in secular countries with freedom of religion sometimes think that their great religious experience is the same for every one else.

As they say in pashto, the difference is
ookhrai and dhak sha,
An islamic ritual in Newyork is akin to 'ookhrai', the same experience in KP is 'dhak sha'. The two are fundamentally different. We just want our experiences to be that of 'ookhrai' too. For that we are willing to tolerate a little bit of baggage that comes with it, for 'dhak sha' is just not in the pashtoon DNA.

Baygham
02-08-2011, 11:04 PM
The reason you didn't see any nomads is because Pakhtunkhwah is not located in the UK, Canada or the U.S. it's located on the fringe of South Central Asia. Nomads are all over the region and even have political representation in Afghanistan. Powanda/Kuchi are stilll, highly present, there are something like 3 Million Pashtun/Pakhtun Nomads in Afghanistan alone. That's nearly 1/3rd of Pashtuns there. Your lack of knowledge of this is because you're from a culture completely alien not only to Pashtoons but to the Middle East and Central Asia as well.

The point here wasn't to embrace this fascination for Nomadism; personally I think Nomads live the most ecologically sensible lifestyle, but I digress. What my point was is to demonstrate how these arbitrary lines you draw are totally false. While I do see parallels with Persian cultures and Pashtoons, for obvious linguistic connections, the dress and behavior of a Yemeni Arab, including dances and customs, moral ideals and simply way of life in general are more analagous with Pashtoons and vice versa than Pashtoons are with Persians. In fact very little of Pashtoon society has analog with Persian culture. Yemenis have their own type of "Pashtoonwali" based on similar lines. This isn't due to an Arab invasion or cultural subjugation; but just natural relationships with the ecological order. Granted there are ethic groups who share comparable degrees of affiliation, such as Kurds, Lurs, Balouch, Qashqai (possibly related to Ghilzai Pashtuns); but the point was to demonstrate is the Middle East and Central Asia have been so historically interwoven and has had such a high degree of cross cultural infiltration over centuries; that everyone from Marrakesch to Kashgar are bonded our brethren. That's just how it is.

Once again all that is being peddled here are these false dichotomies and shallow attempts at emotional anecdoting. What does the direction of the Ka'aba have to do with the simplicity of life of people? Surely people from Marrakesch to Kashgar have for the most part lived simple lives and still knew of the direction of the Ka'aba. It's not something that required extensive sophistication. IN fact Islaam was a people's movement from the get go, it was based on the principle of a simple life. This portrayal of "simple people" and other symbolic mnemonics here seems to be nothing other than an emotive ploy; but one which is extremely transparent. As if somehow it was to trying to feign legitimacy by saying "look see, even the simple people want imperial culture, they need the Handsome Blond Haired Blue eyed Hero depicted in Hollywood films to come and rescue them from the tyranny of their obscure and archaic religion and culture. This is an age old tactic of Orientalist mythology; and yet you accuse others of relying on fairy tales? You can't smokescreen this under the seemingly ambiguous rhetoric of change, we know what paradgm you're referriing to when you say "change"; a destructive, dysfunctional capitalist one. We all want a decent standard of living; but does decent standard of living mean having food and hygiene or a cyborg driven Sci Fi Technocratic wet dream that you seem to endorse? The distnctions need to be made here. Loosely veiled remarks like "relevance in a changing world"; are almost always said in context to cow towing mainstream Global Capitalist Framework; because let's be honest here any global disparity that exists today is intrinsically tied to displacement and disruption of people's natural ecological and economic relationships which has manufactured these issues; what else would they promote than than compliance to capitalist norms as a knife around people's throats to be alleviated. And hence why your gleeful comments celebrating Capitalist Hegemoni vis' a vis America/NATO etc, with your loins tingling over their reward for your services is evidence that Pashtoons were never your concern in the first place; serving the agenda of Northern Europeans is.

I think you fail to understand the revolution in Egypt; the Egyptians are rejecting the Capitalist Paradigm, not embracing it, and this is what is happening globally. No one wants technocracy, why would they? It violates all of our natural instincts and faculties. It's an unsustainable modus operandi which has only succeeded in creating a dysfunctional civilization. As someone who lives in the belly of the beast ; I don't see how your hallucination of Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwah for that matter becoming a bastion for Ferangi enterprise will come to pass; if the ferangi order itself is falling apart from within, the likliness of what you want to come to pass, is slim to none. Sorry to break the news to you.

Environmentalism and Ecology has nothing to do with some Commercially friendly status quo endorsed conception of being "green" as you seem to think. Ecosystems are rarely ever "humanistic"; they're based on cycles which incorporate broader relationships than only that. However a lack of humanism is not tantamount to exploitation. Pashtoons were "green" as you seem to portray; but the concept of green here is not the domicile flaccid imagery you're steeped in. Pashtoons never destroyed or impaired the ecological relationships or environment of the planet, Pashtuns simply embroiled in the world with rival forces the way which was normal for most of our Earth's geological history; no ecological balances were disrupted. That's what disntinguishes the neocolonial approach from Islam or the pashtoon one. and why the later have legitimacy and the prior doesn't.

Were these" simple people" ...whispering voices in your head by any chances? I believe that might be where your error lies.

Dear SX you have a preconceived notion to which your world must conform. Islam is divine and Allah/Islam is absolute truth.

There is nothing wrong with that assumption, my Dad had similar views. The problem lies in what happens next. Now you must conform reality to fit this paradigm. And there you lose all validity. Any sensory perception not fitting the paradigm is given a negative mark, so as to maintain the delusion. Any small whiff of a favorable sign is amplified beyond recognition. In the end the brain filters out what it cannot absorb and heightens what it likes. And your delusions become your reality.

Dont waste your life in science, with that assumption above, you will never unearth any truth. You can only be a good technician, a good follower of flowcharts, original thinker you will never be.

Original thoughts come on clear canvas, not one painted with a scene. Your canvas is not clean.

ScimitarXEdge
02-09-2011, 12:06 PM
Dear SX, to you every thing is a Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, I told you we in KP dont give two hoots about Capitalist Hegemonic Framework, or punjabic hegemonic or arabian / iranian or whoever elses model or framework.

We are taking of our own framework, what is in our head and what should be in our head, that will make our environment a little better than it is, not the environment in Newyork, not in mecca or palestine, in KP and the surrounding pashtoon areas, that is it. A very narrow area of focus.

Certain frameworks in the head of a pashtoon in KP are not aligned with this basic one step at a time approach to progress in this world, again not in janatul-firdos or other imaginary places like harry potter land, here in the time and space of KP/21st century.

Lastly I would just add one thing, that those growing up in secular countries with freedom of religion sometimes think that their great religious experience is the same for every one else.

As they say in pashto, the difference is
ookhrai and dhak sha,
An islamic ritual in Newyork is akin to 'ookhrai', the same experience in KP is 'dhak sha'. The two are fundamentally different. We just want our experiences to be that of 'ookhrai' too. For that we are willing to tolerate a little bit of baggage that comes with it, for 'dhak sha' is just not in the pashtoon DNA.

The problem is the lense by which you analyze "okhraai" and "Dhak Sha" are wholly defined by Capitalist Hegemonistic Variables; even your understandings of things being "Arab" or "Iranian" are otherwise are products their orientalist arguments which stemmed from their Imperial ventures. No matter how hard you try to represent yourself as some unofficial spokesperson of Pakhtunkhwah and act as if you speak on the ground level; this is the basis for your paradigm. So to claim that you "don't care about their hegemony", either indicates you're so horribly brainwashed and mentally enslaved that you cannot even recognize the nature and relationships which gave birth to your ideological views, or that you're merely being deceitful and are intentionally disingenuous. Since you seem to emulate the typical characteristics of an inferiority complex driven Easterner; something very common in the post-colonial/neo-colonial era due with this need to cope with subservience to the Imperial Paradigm, I will presume that the former.

It's become a standard cliche' to argue off some tangential claim that those raised in Capitalist Societies and yet retain value for their hereditary and religious identity/value system, speak from a position of convenience and therefore their vision is naive and lacks credibility. Firstly even if that is true, the rules of Logic indicate that that does not discredit their position. Secondly; it ignores the details of migration and what motivate it and in turn make the errorneous conclusions that Muslims or any other generally Non-Northern European stock people in European-based/Capitalist/Secularist societies disparage it out of petty anger, and not a deeper assessment beyond surface level variables . Such a shallow assessment of things too is a product of Capitalist Models of Perception and this applies for issues of religious experience and ideology as well. For many people's values, ideas and religious is rooted emotive inpulses, for others it's intellectual.

Although you pretend to have hold on a rational and logical framework for why you embrace a technocratic paradigm of globalized world economic and scientific progress, your motivations for it are emotional and driven by anxiety. While you view my defense of Islaam and it's values and it's merit as based on emotional attachment to antiquated views; in actuality are derived from intellectual analysis, a comparison of evidence and the fortitude to address problems accurately. However, much like you seem to project on me; this assesment is based on be ordained biases by which anything outside of that lense you don't account as it would be cognitive dissonance to your culturally enslaved sense of reality.

Hence we have Islam being equated to standard Capitalist manufactured icons and symbols of Harry Potter and some absurd notions of what constitutes the drives hardwired within Pashtoon DNA; whether this or that is hardwired into pashtoon DNA isn't the matter however, the fact your "ookhraai" is nothing more than the result of a Capitalist imposed inferiority complex is.

ScimitarXEdge
02-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Dear SX you have a preconceived notion to which your world must conform. Islam is divine and Allah/Islam is absolute truth.

There is nothing wrong with that assumption, my Dad had similar views. The problem lies in what happens next. Now you must conform reality to fit this paradigm. And there you lose all validity. Any sensory perception not fitting the paradigm is given a negative mark, so as to maintain the delusion. Any small whiff of a favorable sign is amplified beyond recognition. In the end the brain filters out what it cannot absorb and heightens what it likes. And your delusions become your reality.

Dont waste your life in science, with that assumption above, you will never unearth any truth. You can only be a good technician, a good follower of flowcharts, original thinker you will never be.

Original thoughts come on clear canvas, not one painted with a scene. Your canvas is not clean.



If my canvas is not clean then your canvas would be tantamount to a toxic waste site; on such a stage nothing meritable will ever result from it. It wouldn't merely be trying to paint upon an already existing scene, it would be like using a broken brush on an eroded surface.

If what you're saying was true; I'd advocate Talibani style Islaam, or Wahhabism or Deobandism, things which discourage any intellectual or cognitive activity both within a scope dealing with technical matters of religious and outside of it. I would have little to no regard for any other reality outside of it, nor would I try to measure it's relevance, accuracy or validity with anything, why would I? It would be true because I think it is, or rather was told it is. However, this isn't the case. And my motives for being Muslim are much more nuanced and based on my own intellectual convincing than you would give credit to.


Your assessment of my scientific competence is peculiar and absurd given that in nearly every response; you use the typical Emotionalized rants, false appeals and fail compose a Logically Consistent argument. Just irrelevant ploys in and out. It's hard to imagine how someone who's such a strong advocate of rational and scientific assessment of reality make such errors persistently, but I can answer that puzzle easily.

The question of religion over science is not a question of competing ideas ; it's a question of epistemology. Science is an apparatus. not a philosophy (although there is a philosophy regarding the relevance of that apparatus, it's not the same as science itself). That apparatus has certain range of scope with which it can ascertain information, usually things which can be quantifiably observed. Often times it's debated whether certain topics of physics are actually science or philosophy because they do not deal with actual real-world/real-time variables. However, this is where we get into an area of wow we understand something to be True or false and what makes The Truth ....the Truth. And hence the conclusion that one will not "unearth" any truth because they believe in Islaam is an internally self defeating one. For if we understand the process of rationality and logic. Truth is not simply confined to empirical conditions; that would be like assuming that anything True is only things we can derive, and thus subject to our acknowledgement. Truth deals with existences and degrees of existence, and thereby how we determine what exists and what does not? Truth is addressing the attributes of existence and such a thing is too vast for empirical means to encompass; Science is not merely empirical truths, those truths are local truths subsets and derivatives of grander truths, but also the vast aspects of Existence, things which are not always discernable in limited corners of space-time; but holistic inductive and deductive relations. Truth is not just held in a laboratory but in Nature itself. It is that fact where there's an interface of Religion and science, as both ultimately with the same issues, what is reality?

What you advocate isn't science or fact but a type of philosophy that facts are only constrained to moderated variables, things which have limited scope of relevance to a holistic understanding of reality.

It's almost as if that this perception of me advocating Islaam and how you view Islaam's standards and concepts and what you feel regarding them is really based on your own preordained standards; and hence your errorneous conclusions of both my understanding of Islaam and Science and Islaam and Science itself. For me there's no competition with Islaam and Science, but rather Islaam and certain views regarding the application of science. Thus there was never any situation of disregarding any reality in science that didn't fit with Islaam, or vice versa; this was merely your projection; one based on your own set of false unverified assumptions.


and getting back to your analogy of the Canvas, it's hence you who are projecting your own prewritten canvas on others, not the other way around.

In short you're not wrong simply because Islaam says so; I'm saying you're wrong because reality says so, and likewise reality says Islaam is right.

Baygham
02-09-2011, 03:38 PM
If my canvas is not clean then your canvas would be tantamount to a toxic waste site; on such a stage nothing meritable will ever result from it. It wouldn't merely be trying to paint upon an already existing scene, it would be like using a broken brush on an eroded surface.

If what you're saying was true; I'd advocate Talibani style Islaam, or Wahhabism or Deobandism, things which discourage any intellectual or cognitive activity both within a scope dealing with technical matters of religious and outside of it. I would have little to no regard for any other reality outside of it, nor would I try to measure it's relevance, accuracy or validity with anything, why would I? It would be true because I think it is, or rather was told it is. However, this isn't the case. And my motives for being Muslim are much more nuanced and based on my own intellectual convincing than you would give credit to.


Your assessment of my scientific competence is peculiar and absurd given that in nearly every response; you use the typical Emotionalized rants, false appeals and fail compose a Logically Consistent argument. Just irrelevant ploys in and out. It's hard to imagine how someone who's such a strong advocate of rational and scientific assessment of reality make such errors persistently, but I can answer that puzzle easily.

The question of religion over science is not a question of competing ideas ; it's a question of epistemology. Science is an apparatus. not a philosophy (although there is a philosophy regarding the relevance of that apparatus, it's not the same as science itself). That apparatus has certain range of scope with which it can ascertain information, usually things which can be quantifiably observed. Often times it's debated whether certain topics of physics are actually science or philosophy because they do not deal with actual real-world/real-time variables. However, this is where we get into an area of wow we understand something to be True or false and what makes The Truth ....the Truth. And hence the conclusion that one will not "unearth" any truth because they believe in Islaam is an internally self defeating one. For if we understand the process of rationality and logic. Truth is not simply confined to empirical conditions; that would be like assuming that anything True is only things we can derive, and thus subject to our acknowledgement. Truth deals with existences and degrees of existence, and thereby how we determine what exists and what does not? Truth is addressing the attributes of existence and such a thing is too vast for empirical means to encompass; Science is not merely empirical truths, those truths are local truths subsets and derivatives of grander truths, but also the vast aspects of Existence, things which are not always discernable in limited corners of space-time; but holistic inductive and deductive relations. Truth is not just held in a laboratory but in Nature itself. It is that fact where there's an interface of Religion and science, as both ultimately with the same issues, what is reality?

What you advocate isn't science or fact but a type of philosophy that facts are only constrained to moderated variables, things which have limited scope of relevance to a holistic understanding of reality.

It's almost as if that this perception of me advocating Islaam and how you view Islaam's standards and concepts and what you feel regarding them is really based on your own preordained standards; and hence your errorneous conclusions of both my understanding of Islaam and Science and Islaam and Science itself. For me there's no competition with Islaam and Science, but rather Islaam and certain views regarding the application of science. Thus there was never any situation of disregarding any reality in science that didn't fit with Islaam, or vice versa; this was merely your projection; one based on your own set of false unverified assumptions.


and getting back to your analogy of the Canvas, it's hence you who are projecting your own prewritten canvas on others, not the other way around.

In short you're not wrong simply because Islaam says so; I'm saying you're wrong because reality says so, and likewise reality says Islaam is right.

The funny thing is SX, that your own interpretation of Islam is a western construct. Its a unique framework that you individually possess, an amalgamation of your western education and emotional need for religion to fill the voids in that understanding. This unique Islam has no value for another pashtoon. To elaborate further, lets design an experiment.

Write down ten basic tenets of this individualized islam and post them here, and we will ask the faithful to comment on them. If by the end of this exercise you are not labeled Kafir by half, I will accept you as 'ghous ul azam'. LOL. Your Islam is just that, yours, it is to soothe your nerves, not provide guidance for the pashtoons on how to live in 21st century as equal and honorable global partners.

Additionally, I am really amused by constant reference to an inferiority complex. Again something common to colonial subjects I guess, but sir, pashtoons by and large were a well documented exception to this identity crises and inferiority complex. Secondly the new generation born way after any colonial interaction has no memory of such. Now if you personally have some colonial anguish (you must be pretty old for that) or some guilt with being from a family of house negros, than that may be so, no such qualms here.

I grew up in PK and have been treated with utmost respect in USA. I dont know of other countries (i havent lived there) so honestly I really cant relate to what you are talking about. I have seen a lot of inferiority complex viz a viz white skin/ gora-kala/ english good accent vs. with a thick accent and such in a lot of indian/pakistani, the need to distinguish them selves from say punjabi sikhs or such with more and more arabized names and so on. But by large I have not seen this behavior that much prevalent in pashtoons. Some do have Khan and non khan or raees, non-raees complexes, again wont know much about that as i don't have any pashtoon pedigree problems.

Toramana
02-09-2011, 04:25 PM
Bayghama pa khair...Bacha pa Sawabai kai musam sanga woo? Bailai tha pa kai tlalai wai kana?

Actually, SX is an Arab nationlist. Arabs now-a-days are writhing with rage due to the humuliation they have suffered at the hands of Isreal ... SX has demonstrated the same pathological signs that characterise Arabs....

BarakzaiAbdali
02-09-2011, 05:17 PM
Things have changed, look at eygpt. Its 5000+ years history they have never had non authoritarian rule. And what is the demand now in the recent uprising.

Muhammad himself was just one person. When he stood against prevailing pagan doctrines of millenia. So what if the pashtoons were savages once, pashtoons have fought for sikhs, hindus, pagans, iranians, mughals, russians, arabs, punjabis, english, and now americans. Even your name sake abdali was once a ghilzai prisoner and would have died in the gallows if not for persian conquest. Our khushal khan himself was a paid vassal of mughals whom latter turned his own son against him.

so now we take money from this and that, nothing has changed except the world.

The pashtoons are a weak, small but significant group of people in todays world, The world is not going to allow them to maintain there loot and plunder ways of past. You cannot raid india or persia now. Now you work like a dog just like the chinese and indians and compete in global arena, one step at a time.

This is a time to change our ways not pour more gasoline on ourselves so we combust faster.

And having lived amongst the religion wheelers and dealers in pakhtunkhwa, I know how courageous they are and who will sell for what. Essentially the majority have no moral basis of existence (including the ANP leadership). Those that cherish religion truly don't mix it with worldly gains and are innocent bystanders and equally exploited. A very small but alive subset, want a change, away from the use of religion fear mongering, anti western, anti indian bull crap. They had not seen an american in swabi or swat, yet they are exploited worse than those living in jalalabad.


Baygham wrorre,

Lets start over. Tell me a little about yourself as much as you feel comfortable with. So you were born in KP. What region do you hail from? Which Kabayl? I have many friends from Khybar Med now. Did you study there or another Pakistani institute? Are you in residency or fellowship or are you in the field as an attending currently? You may be beyond me at this point, but just know if you ever think that there is anything I can do to help you send me a line. We may be ideologically distant, but I still consider you amongst my brethren and may also end up coming to you for guidance should the need arise.

However, I do want to address your points and will remain as frank and honest as I can:

1. The overwhelming majority of your arguments are anectodal and not evidence based. So when you accuse SXEdge of being unscientific... I think its actually you that suffers from this malady as emotion drives most of your blog posts. So for example you say: Pashtoons take money from others and cite a few prime examples of people that did so and then you supplement this with some absurd statement that we ride the loot train via plunder and have to stop. As a physician and as a scientist you come across as amateurish with these statements because you impose anectode onto the masses. Remember, anecdote based practice is not the stuff of evidence based practice. Heck, even local data can be skewed... for example certain anti hypertensive cocktails in blacks offer different results than those in whites and other races. If one were to live and train in an all black area and prescribe anti hypertensives based on this experience and then believe that what he was giving was applicable to everyone in the US, we would not be conducting evidence based practice.

Another example is your statement on nomadic pashtuns. Per my father in law, a yargu khel elder, his tribe up to his generation still tends lands between Bannu and Wana. It was only recently with military incursions that this age old practice of the Ahmadzai Wazirs is being challenged.

However, as I stated, you imposed anecdote from your personal experiences in the place of evidence.

For that matter, who is Ashraf Ghani? He is the tribal leader of a large segment of Kochiaan. Moreover, the Hazara complain that a large number of Taliban recruits derive from Durrani Kochiaan in the vale of Kandahar during the Spring/Summer campaigns.

Now, as one scientist to another, please provide counter evidence that kochi-ism is dead.

2. The need to throw our red herrings: So you generally throw out red herrings that are refutable and once again nonfactual when investigated or expanded upon. When there is fact, it is intermixed with, once again your anecdotal evidence devoid of the complex interpretations that any student of history or analytical thought out to furnish. Let me provide one example:

Regarding Ahmad Shah Abdali and his imprisonment by Shah Hussein Hotak.... you never finish the thought or tell the rest of the history. Ahmad Shah served Nadir Shah, a sunni that sought to reestablish sunni doctrine in Iran and also roll back the damage the shiah had done under the prior Iranian empires. So it was very easy for him to accomodate being a chieftan in Nadir's fighting force. Otherwise, Abdali and Ghilzai chafed under Shiah rule and Mir Wais was able to rouse enough anti Shiah sentiment to stage his rebellion.

Also the history of the Mughals in Pashtunistan is quiet illustrative. With the exception of a few Safi rebellions and some skirmishes of Khushal Khan plus some attacks on Aurengzaibs army done in that era, when you compare the Pashtun war against Mughal occupation versus the outright bloody rebellions the Afghans staged against the British, the Russians, and the Americans a common theme emerges.

That theme is that the Pashtuns fought a hell of a lot harder against nonMuslim invaders that attempted to impose their ideologies than did they their own Muslim brethren.

Your issue is that you deleted parts of history and glossed an interpretation convenient to yourself over it all.

3. Your view on religion: Once again you throw out red herrings in the millions and mix up cause and effect. So on your blog you devote much emotional ranting to how the Islamically minded devote their resources to the hereafter and cannot benefit the present. Yet there is not a shred of evidence to support that either A) such an approach hinders worldly success vs progress as you define it or B) you ignore actual quranic ayahs that exhort believes to strive with equal vigor for "allahuma rabanaa athinaa wa fid dunyaa"/this life and the hereafter.

Furthermore, in your example on rape and zinaa you ignore the classical discussions on how rape may very well fall under the quranic injunction that commands "women are not to be inherited against their will." Salafist interpretations are in and of themselves in argument of this complex matter.

You note the lack of regard for life amongst religionists and decry their lack of piety. However, why is it that Michael Scheuer has just released a biography detailing that Osama Bin Ladin for instance, lives up to piety par excellence? He provides a corpus of evidence to follow through on this.

So your general answer to why the mujahideen are not "pious" has been to mix up cause and effect, something that a simple Kandahar villager does not even do. In that Post article I gave you, the villager answers quiet pointedly that he understand each death the Taliban inflict is an answer to the fact that NATO troops are occupying Afghan land.

You also mix up the village mullah with an actual informed theologian. That is as dumb as if I were to mix up a Christian Theologian with a small town Baptist preacher.

Regarding your example of how KP Pashtuns that have not seen an American or an Indian. Once again, you take something complex and simplify it to cover up truth. How about that Wazir tribesmen that sees that soldier in his post in Forward Operating Base Shinwar? He appears to see that presence as threatening. For that matter, what about Cameron Munter's own statements that America shall intervene as it seems fit per the bill it foots to keep Pakistan afloat? So interference in the day to day life of a Swaabi or Swaati Pashtun is as complex as interference into the life of a denizen of any country on the border of a nation that it shares links with that is occupied.

So brother, leave behind your emotion and illogical ramblings and provide citations and evidence.

Baygham
02-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Bayghama pa khair...Bacha pa Sawabai kai musam sanga woo? Bailai tha pa kai tlalai wai kana?

Actually, SX is an Arab nationlist. Arabs now-a-days are writhing with rage due to the humuliation they have suffered at the hands of Isreal ... SX has demonstrated the same pathological signs that characterise Arabs....


The damn fog, kept every thing pretty much shut down. You could hardly see 10 yards away. But it was lots of fun. Had a couple of days set aside to frolic with the arabs in dubai and that got squashed as well due to weather. Overall was fun. Nice to meet up with old gang.

This SX is some fifth generation god knows what breed (i see a little hubsh in there too), telling us how it is in KP, lol. And that we have inferiority complex. LOL.

BTW I am impressed by the Egyptians, finally some Arabs with spine, I thought they sold that Biatch some centuries ago. The hashimites in Jordan are a little uneasy as well. Cant see a happy ending though, that would take a head on top of the spine.

Baygham
02-09-2011, 06:38 PM
Baygham wrorre,.....................
You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. This is an anonymous forum and here my name is Baygham. Some say I am a doctor, I never said that. I am from Swabi KP. Just visited the damn place. I have never set foot in kandahar or kabul, have friends and family that do business there and I do interact with them almost on daily basis. I have no political or economic aspirations in watan. Uncle sam kaka has been kind and I do OK in USA.

My impressions of pashtoo and pashtoons is many from KP, a little from Quetta which i have visited quite a few times, some friends from FATA and some visits there, mainly khyber. Nothing else.

Nomads I have seen I must confess, here and there, I dont think anyone in the next 100 years will ask them for what to do in PK. They have no role to play in the making of any sort of social or political movement in KP. Hence there irrelevance. I am not sure if they wield more power in afghanistan, may be they do, God bless you guys then, if they do. We are a little far away from having a 'koochi' sardar as our boss.

More pashtoons are killed by fellow pashtoons in pakhtunkhwa than are killed by americans. I dont have absolute statistics but can safely say that if we count all the murders in KP that occur daily, from family clashes, domestic violence, tribal friction, suicide bombing, taliban killing and vise versa, the total is probably a lot more than NATA killing of afghans on a daily basis.
since you like facts, here is one calculated murder rate in peshawar (22.9/100,000/ year)http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/18-4/06%20Murad%20Zafar%20MArri.pdf
extrapolate to the whole KP/FATA the rate comes to 4400-5500/ year. The study was in 2002, a year of no talib voilence as MMA was in power, now you can imagine what it is.
compared to civilian deaths by NATO is less than a few hundred http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics#zoomed-picture


We have way bigger problems than who is pumping karzai and dha cha pa moor sook ****** dhi. Our culture is in decay, economic activity is at a stand still, social order is disintegrating, and nobody knows what to do.

Ka pa sijdoo dha sizoona sameeday noo thar hussa ba 'mars' tha las zalla thalee oo.

ScimitarXEdge
02-09-2011, 06:39 PM
Bayghama pa khair...Bacha pa Sawabai kai musam sanga woo? Bailai tha pa kai tlalai wai kana?

Actually, SX is an Arab nationlist. Arabs now-a-days are writhing with rage due to the humuliation they have suffered at the hands of Isreal ... SX has demonstrated the same pathological signs that characterise Arabs....



Usually claims of others being Arab Nationalists originates from those who are slaves of Imperialists, both mentally and spiritually

everyone knows Israel is a smokescreen from bigger issues.

ScimitarXEdge
02-09-2011, 08:01 PM
The funny thing is SX, that your own interpretation of Islam is a western construct. Its a unique framework that you individually possess, an amalgamation of your western education and emotional need for religion to fill the voids in that understanding. This unique Islam has no value for another pashtoon. To elaborate further, lets design an experiment.

Write down ten basic tenets of this individualized islam and post them here, and we will ask the faithful to comment on them. If by the end of this exercise you are not labeled Kafir by half, I will accept you as 'ghous ul azam'. LOL. Your Islam is just that, yours, it is to soothe your nerves, not provide guidance for the pashtoons on how to live in 21st century as equal and honorable global partners.

Additionally, I am really amused by constant reference to an inferiority complex. Again something common to colonial subjects I guess, but sir, pashtoons by and large were a well documented exception to this identity crises and inferiority complex. Secondly the new generation born way after any colonial interaction has no memory of such. Now if you personally have some colonial anguish (you must be pretty old for that) or some guilt with being from a family of house negros, than that may be so, no such qualms here.

I grew up in PK and have been treated with utmost respect in USA. I dont know of other countries (i havent lived there) so honestly I really cant relate to what you are talking about. I have seen a lot of inferiority complex viz a viz white skin/ gora-kala/ english good accent vs. with a thick accent and such in a lot of indian/pakistani, the need to distinguish them selves from say punjabi sikhs or such with more and more arabized names and so on. But by large I have not seen this behavior that much prevalent in pashtoons. Some do have Khan and non khan or raees, non-raees complexes, again wont know much about that as i don't have any pashtoon pedigree problems.


It's funny to you because despite your pseudo intellectual theatrics and pretense of being learned, you lack any genuine knowledge or understanding on most of the subjects you choose to discuss. Much like what your comrade Toramana would accuse others of doing, the crux of most of your debates is sophistry; you're too intellectually dishonest and lazy to do any serious investigation on the subjects discussed.

are you familiar with Mu'tazilism at all? Probably not; if you actually had knowledge on the subject, you'd know that my viewpoints are actually a long established stream of thought in Islamic Culture before your beloved Europeans even knew how to properly navigate ships in the sea. So this theory that my ideology is some amalgam of western education and some emotional need for religion is erroneous. But I can understand why you think that, Being that your own views are derived based on an emotional anxiety driven motive it would only be expected for you to believe others operate on the same program. That however, isn't the case. as I said, my belief in Islaam, was an intellectual convincing, if something was more intellectually convincing, I'd embrace it. That however hasn't happened yet. I however am always open to challenges, so give it your best shot.

"There is no "my Islaam"; Islaam in so much as our existence on Earth is concerned, is a system of addressing different environmental and social issues and problems; if that wasn't the case then you wouldn't chaff under this animosity for why you feel for it because it conflicts with your irrational social and cultural vision. Islaam for me like every other Muslim serves as a system for addressing those problems in a holistic and comprehensive manner and this has proven itself meritable from the course of time, so long as Islaam is applied, and not selectively paid lip service towards, it successfully addressed this issue. For me I take the Mu'tazilah approach of Islaam, because it seems to have successfully applied Islaam in a comprehensive manner without compromising any crucial aspect. There's no emotional pacifier here; that is merely your own reflection you see.

In a very superficial sense, you're right that most of Pashtoons of 2011 are not at least explicitly aligned to Mu'tazilism, but even fewer are aligned with your views explicitly or implicity, I can guarantee that. However, Mu'tazilism is merely a way of approaching Islaam logically, and whether people overtly declare Mu'tazilah as their creed or not isn't an issue for me, neither is being condemned by other Muslims. My goal is only that Islaam is comprehensively followed, not extremism, not suicide bombers, not young women dying from preventable complications out of some distorted ideas of modesty. All one needs do is examine my discourses with Taliban supporters to know my stance on various issues. Regardless, I wouldn't be hard pressed to find more Pashtoons aligned with Mu'tazilah ideas on some level even if they don't explicitly embrace Mu'tazilism. Even some of the Wahhabis who are often in conflict with me are applying Mu'tazilah techniques against me without realizing it. The difference between you and I is that I don't reject Islaam, just certain approaches towards Islaam, this gives me a great deal of credibility, manuverability and leverage with Pashtoons. You on the other hand put yourself at odds with pretty much every Pashtoon past and present. Even your understanding of their beliefs reeks of someone completely alien and extrnal to the society; it's littered logically juvenile contrasts of Novelty vs. Antiquity, lacking of a nuanced understanding of their anthropology, ecology and evolution. Hence your complete erred belief that some artificial manufactured paradigm of technocracy will automatically transfer into a largely Anti-Technocratic Mountainous Rural and Nomadic culture of Pakhtunkhwah. My understanding of their beliefs takes a more balanced and rational approach, one which understands their pitfalls accurately but without trying to disregard the standards which are rationally valid, even if they do not cohere to the Modernist or in actuality European Status Quo. Unlike you I don't follow into shallow and illogical dichotomies such as "Novelty vs. Antiquity".


To make use of your muse; it's once again funny how you address the issue of inferiority complexes and colonial subservience because the psychological pathology that you operate by despite your constant denial is precisely that of the House Negro. You embody what is generally identified as an Uncle Tom syndrome here in North America. It's of no consequence if you're in complete and utter denial of it, the patterns and characteristic features that correspond to such a pathology are there. The situation of Pakhtoons as we speak today is a direct product of colonial intrusion; everything from the existence of Pakistan, to how Afghanistan was divided up and various leaders of Pakhtoons were "vassal clients" of the British ( a euphemism for being under tribute to British political authority), to different geopolitical schemes for the region over the past two centuries are all direct manifestations of the colonial enterprise; to say that Pakhtoons have forgotten it when it's engrained not only in our history, our folklore and our social, economic and political circumstances both past and present, is complete blindness.

Colonized mental enslavement is not just constrained to variables of social status, but also mindset and vision; especially when it comes abiding by Logically False appeals of Novelty such as defining progress/rectitude by how well it fits into contemporary standards (21st century); as if contemporary models are automatically correct for being more contemporary; and constructs of "global partners" in a imperial designed capitalist global hegemony, defining equality by what amounts to subservience to cultural norms manufactured and fabricated and against the natural ecological relationships of human beings globally. That's quite an irrational contradiction you have on your hands. But that's what having a colonized mindset does to a person.

If you were treated well in America, that's great news; every Master treats their wafadar lap dogs or in this case donkeys very well. You serve their agendas with more zeal and fervor than even some of their own kind. You're right in saying that it's very rare and unlikely for Pashtoons to suffer from these anxieties of inferiority and colonized psychology; but that only indicates that you're probably not Pashtoon in the first place. hence why you have no issues with your Pashtoon pedigree. Without relying heavily on conspiracy and clandestined intrigued but at the same time bringing credence to the to the underpinning reality of Neo-Imperial agendas that exist, learning Pashto has become of strategic importance for the Intelligence and Counter-Intelligence cadres of these Neo-Imperialist Institutions, it puts things into even greater perspective when put into the context of a "winning hearts and minds" strategy and disinformation strategy in their behalf. I'm not going to make a resolute accusation; but it wouldn't come as a surprise if that was the case here. It would put much of your rhetoric in context and would also explain why a so-called self described "Proud Pashtoon" who says they don't have an inferiority complex writes gleefully about an American Geo-political agenda to exploit the region as if they were somehow saviors of humanity. Such would into their propganda agenda nicely. It also explains how someone somehow raised in Pakhtunkhwah is attuned to terms like "House Negro" , terms which have cultural significance only in North America.


Let's run your experiment; just say when and where.

Dukemina
02-10-2011, 01:03 PM
This has become more like a attack Toramana thread. Sheesh people learn to live with one another atleast a bit more peacefully...

Even though Toramana disagrees with me on most things (if not all) I think he has a lil liking for me so heads up he's a chap whose good enough to not let that get past him :)

graveyardofempires
02-10-2011, 01:08 PM
toramana? are you a male or female?

Catya Sher
02-10-2011, 02:16 PM
So Baygham is not a physician at all ?

Toramana is conceivably NOT a guy ?

What other potential surprises could there be waiting in the wings?

Contrast with Kakargirl's honesty and one sees people like these two
are definitely keeping themselves vague.

ScimitarXEdge
02-10-2011, 02:23 PM
toramana? are you a male or female?

maybe he's a little of both

ScimitarXEdge
02-10-2011, 02:26 PM
toramana is a male, just one of weak caliber.

IamDZJ
02-10-2011, 02:43 PM
I dont see why it should concern either one of you.

Toramana
02-10-2011, 08:45 PM
So Baygham is not a physician at all ?

Toramana is conceivably NOT a guy ?

What other potential surprises could there be waiting in the wings?

Contrast with Kakargirl's honesty and one sees people like these two
are definitely keeping themselves vague.

Hahahaha...Hahahahaha...Hahahaha...Thoroughly enjoyed that...:smile1: By the way I enjoy sharp comments full of humour...Hay, lonely lady what else could we, I and Baygham, be...?

BarakzaiAbdali
02-10-2011, 09:05 PM
Hahahaha...Hahahahaha...Hahahaha...Thoroughly enjoyed that...:smile1: By the way I enjoy sharp comments full of humour...Hay, lonely lady what else could we, I and Baygham, be...?

You and admin khan should start an engineering thread. I am sure many youngins could benefit from your wisdom and advice. Looking back on my own career I recall that one of the issues with folks from central asia, south asia and China was that they were more in love with books and memorization than actually understanding a concept. The American engineers are usually folks that were building and taking apart cars and computers since they were 8 years old and this gives them a practical understanding of important concepts. So I figure some good advice for any youngin interested in engineering or following your career path is to get involved in programming at a very early age and also get some practical experience. That way, as he does his circuits coursework he understand the concepts like the Fourier transform and signal filtering/processing that you posted previously as more than formula, but rather as a concept defined mathematically.

I am sure some Islamia College Engineers or Kabul Engineers could build on it.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-10-2011, 10:03 PM
You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. This is an anonymous forum and here my name is Baygham. Some say I am a doctor, I never said that. I am from Swabi KP. Just visited the damn place. I have never set foot in kandahar or kabul, have friends and family that do business there and I do interact with them almost on daily basis. I have no political or economic aspirations in watan. Uncle sam kaka has been kind and I do OK in USA.

My impressions of pashtoo and pashtoons is many from KP, a little from Quetta which i have visited quite a few times, some friends from FATA and some visits there, mainly khyber. Nothing else.

Nomads I have seen I must confess, here and there, I dont think anyone in the next 100 years will ask them for what to do in PK. They have no role to play in the making of any sort of social or political movement in KP. Hence there irrelevance. I am not sure if they wield more power in afghanistan, may be they do, God bless you guys then, if they do. We are a little far away from having a 'koochi' sardar as our boss.

More pashtoons are killed by fellow pashtoons in pakhtunkhwa than are killed by americans. I dont have absolute statistics but can safely say that if we count all the murders in KP that occur daily, from family clashes, domestic violence, tribal friction, suicide bombing, taliban killing and vise versa, the total is probably a lot more than NATA killing of afghans on a daily basis.
since you like facts, here is one calculated murder rate in peshawar (22.9/100,000/ year)http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/18-4/06%20Murad%20Zafar%20MArri.pdf (http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/18-4/06%20Murad%20Zafar%20MArri.pdf)
extrapolate to the whole KP/FATA the rate comes to 4400-5500/ year. The study was in 2002, a year of no talib voilence as MMA was in power, now you can imagine what it is.
compared to civilian deaths by NATO is less than a few hundred http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics#zoomed-picture (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics#zoomed-picture)


We have way bigger problems than who is pumping karzai and dha cha pa moor sook ****** dhi. Our culture is in decay, economic activity is at a stand still, social order is disintegrating, and nobody knows what to do.

Ka pa sijdoo dha sizoona sameeday noo thar hussa ba 'mars' tha las zalla thalee oo.

As I noted above, your tendency is to tie two unrelated issues together and make an inference about cause and effect whilst ignoring all other possibilities (i.e. you bend the data to suit your hypothesis). So even with the reference you provide, you proceed without a logical or scientific mindset.

For instance, your simplistic assessment is: well, an Americans are not doing the killing in the stats you cite... therefore no relationship between American presence and disorder exist. You yourself indicate that the degree of death has probably increased since 2002... well golly, what happened in 2001-2002 right across the border? Do these regions hang in isolation from eachother? Have you read the history of the wazirs and their involvement in the most recent change of Afghan monarchies? Why are bombs going off in paramilitary bases in KP and for that matter, what brought the Talibs out of the woodwork and gave them a cause celebre (refer to that tribal analysis study I posted about the historical cycle that empowers the mullah class)?
For that matter, even if the stats have augmented or changed or remain stable, there is no conclusion at the end of the data that all of this is due to religiosity. People will find reasons to kill people for other things... take a look at the guy who shot Gabriel Giffords in Arizona.

Finally, Matthew Hoh of the Afghan study group appears to have this to day when analyzing such data:
"And so the cycle began. We add more troops, which strengthens the Taliban and weakens support for the government. Suicide attacks, IEDs, military and civilian dead or woundedóall rise commensuratelywith eachincrease in foreign troop or Afghan government presence. We misunderstand many ofthecauses of support for the Taliban. They didnít wear sandwich boards or hand out pamphlets to win people. They are the Pashtuns. Most donít want to rule the country. They just want to get rid of the occupiers."

Why is it that a soor kaafir, who was efficiently killing Al Qaeda as a marine commander comes to this diametrically opposite conclusion of you? Perhaps because you are biased and want your agenda to succeed as opposed to stepping back and asking what would be best for that stability you so desire.

For that matter, Toramana himself has operated on the dictum that political independence must proceed economic, educational, and strategic growth. In my initial posts on the forum he referred to the emphasis you put on balancing these issues first and foremost as Islamist paradigms... so I will let you two battle out the contradiction. After all, he is saying "build an independent state first and they will come." You are saying: "screw independence and Islamism we have bigger problems and a load of troubles on our shoulders."

The contradiction and non evidence based approach is glaring.

Baygham
02-11-2011, 09:57 AM
As I noted above, your tendency is to tie two unrelated issues together and make an inference about cause and effect whilst ignoring all other possibilities (i.e. you bend the data to suit your hypothesis). So even with the reference you provide, you proceed without a logical or scientific mindset.

For instance, your simplistic assessment is: well, an Americans are not doing the killing in the stats you cite... therefore no relationship between American presence and disorder exist. You yourself indicate that the degree of death has probably increased since 2002... well golly, what happened in 2001-2002 right across the border? Do these regions hang in isolation from eachother? Have you read the history of the wazirs and their involvement in the most recent change of Afghan monarchies? Why are bombs going off in paramilitary bases in KP and for that matter, what brought the Talibs out of the woodwork and gave them a cause celebre (refer to that tribal analysis study I posted about the historical cycle that empowers the mullah class)?
For that matter, even if the stats have augmented or changed or remain stable, there is no conclusion at the end of the data that all of this is due to religiosity. People will find reasons to kill people for other things... take a look at the guy who shot Gabriel Giffords in Arizona.

Finally, Matthew Hoh of the Afghan study group appears to have this to day when analyzing such data:
"And so the cycle began. We add more troops, which strengthens the Taliban and weakens support for the government. Suicide attacks, IEDs, military and civilian dead or woundedóall rise commensuratelywith eachincrease in foreign troop or Afghan government presence. We misunderstand many ofthecauses of support for the Taliban. They didnít wear sandwich boards or hand out pamphlets to win people. They are the Pashtuns. Most donít want to rule the country. They just want to get rid of the occupiers."

Why is it that a soor kaafir, who was efficiently killing Al Qaeda as a marine commander comes to this diametrically opposite conclusion of you? Perhaps because you are biased and want your agenda to succeed as opposed to stepping back and asking what would be best for that stability you so desire.

For that matter, Toramana himself has operated on the dictum that political independence must proceed economic, educational, and strategic growth. In my initial posts on the forum he referred to the emphasis you put on balancing these issues first and foremost as Islamist paradigms... so I will let you two battle out the contradiction. After all, he is saying "build an independent state first and they will come." You are saying: "screw independence and Islamism we have bigger problems and a load of troubles on our shoulders."

The contradiction and non evidence based approach is glaring.

Zama grana wrora, I may be a simpleton but even the village idiots know that what is happening in KP and larger pakhtunkhwa is anything but straight forward.

Your opposition to america is not based on whether it is economically a good or bad thing. You call them 'sur kafir' and wish them the same as your forefathers wished (and carried forth) for the 'tur kafir' (Siah-Posh Kafirs) in your beloved Afghanistan.

Was that an economically good thing, you bet it was for the King, he got some more land, was it good for the tur kafir citizens of afghanistan, I dont think you can sell me that they are better off. The king justified his actions by calling them enemies of Islam (as the name implies) and hence justified his loot.

To me these are economic equations. It is no longer economically feasible or necessary to have an Islamic reason for exploitation to further resources for the pashtoon. Other much more efficient and less destructive methods will yield us much more worldly gains.

The Islam 'gatta' aw 'tawan' is not my concern and the need for it to exploit some poor soul, I consider beghaarathi and below the honor worhty of a pakhtoon.

As far as disagreement with toramana, we are free thinking people,sometimes he will be right some times I will be, I am not offended if he is and he is I am sure not when I am. If evidence falls in his favor I change my opinion to his and hope he does the same. In a few years of posting here and there we have never come across an insurmountable obstacle where death was wished on the other.LOL

ScimitarXEdge
02-11-2011, 11:46 AM
I dont see why it should concern either one of you.


I dont see why our concern should concern you :tongue:

and by the way it's not concern, it's jest.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-11-2011, 05:31 PM
Zama grana wrora, I may be a simpleton but even the village idiots know that what is happening in KP and larger pakhtunkhwa is anything but straight forward.

Your opposition to america is not based on whether it is economically a good or bad thing. You call them 'sur kafir' and wish them the same as your forefathers wished (and carried forth) for the 'tur kafir' (Siah-Posh Kafirs) in your beloved Afghanistan.

Was that an economically good thing, you bet it was for the King, he got some more land, was it good for the tur kafir citizens of afghanistan, I dont think you can sell me that they are better off. The king justified his actions by calling them enemies of Islam (as the name implies) and hence justified his loot.

To me these are economic equations. It is no longer economically feasible or necessary to have an Islamic reason for exploitation to further resources for the pashtoon. Other much more efficient and less destructive methods will yield us much more worldly gains.

The Islam 'gatta' aw 'tawan' is not my concern and the need for it to exploit some poor soul, I consider beghaarathi and below the honor worhty of a pakhtoon.

As far as disagreement with toramana, we are free thinking people,sometimes he will be right some times I will be, I am not offended if he is and he is I am sure not when I am. If evidence falls in his favor I change my opinion to his and hope he does the same. In a few years of posting here and there we have never come across an insurmountable obstacle where death was wished on the other.LOL

No wrrore,

You are no simpleton, that is why your views are so abysmally sad. Emotional arguments do not correlate with intelligence level or whether you have a dearth of knowledge are not. That was not my intention to portray you that way. I am merely taking apart your interpretation of the events/data.

Regarding the usage of the term sur kafir: the point here was not to degrade Matthew Hoh, Michael Scheuer, or any of my American colleagues. Rather my point was to show you that someone with no investment in the Pakistani establishment, a marine commander with a conservative track record, an the head of the Afghan study group, a Christian without any support of Pan Islamism take the data you analyzed and comes to a completely different conclusion than you. Moreover, hypothesis that subseqeuntly were put out by him prove true again and again because his interpretation provides a dynamic ground level model for which to predict outcomes.

In medicine, we have blinded studies. That is done so that say, if I invent a device/new drug and I want to test it, I cannot bias the results to benefit myself. So when my device/new drug is tested, physicians and patients will be unaware (blinded) as to which treatment group they are in (experimental new cure vs placebo). In this same way, the closest we come to a blinded interpretation of the results with an agendaless/no gain analysis is from the likes of Matt Hoh and Michael Scheuer. Contrast this with the neoconservatives, which appear to have Osho in their ranks... they have a democracy spreading obsession/agenda and see all data through those eyes.

Finally, your charges, commonly touted by the secularist/nationalist faction of ANP and others are in massive folly and baseless. They are as follows:

1. Pan Islamists hate Americans and want them to suffer the fate of the "kafir": Hardly... the U&M polling shows that the Muslim world, Arab and nonArab alike admire Americans and their work ethic but detest American governmental policies that are interventionist in their world.

In fact, one of Osama Bin Ladin's video tapes, per Scheuer's new book, initiates a conversation with the American people, indicating that they allow themselves to be yolked by neoconservatives with a fifth column agenda and that he bears no ill will to malice toward them. Instead, the Pan Islamist strategy appears to have shifted toward viewing attacking the "far enemy" that props up the "near enemy" as a more appropriate strategy. It has little to do with hate.

2. The literature on etiquettes of jihad itself do not lend itself to your flimsey narrative. The famous story of Ali at Khandaq illustrates that purity of purpose, and not hate, is to drive defensive or offensive jihad. Ali had downed a famous Meccan warrior and was about to strike the death blow when the warrior spit on him. He stepped back and refused then to deliver the blow and the fighting continued. When asked why he did this, Ali responded: "Had I killed him in such a condition, it would be because he had angered me. I therefore waited for my anger to subside so that when I went back to strike him, I knew it would be purely for the sake of Allah."

Moreover, the Quranic ayaahs time and time again affix the phrase: "but if they sue for peace" or "if they cease aggression" then you too must do so.

3. Finally, it appears that those of us who sue for peace and who prefer that America return to the roots her founders laid out for her love our fellow Americans far more than you do. This involves divestment from propping up middle eastern/central asian tyrants and occupying Muslim lands which is in direct contradiction to President Washington's instructions. After all, it was you that exclaimed excitement about sending your fellow Americans to their deaths in your place right here:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/hujra-12/forum-has-turned-into-queer-soap-opera-13110/index8.html (http://www.pashtunforums.com/hujra-12/forum-has-turned-into-queer-soap-opera-13110/index8.html)

Here is your own quote referring to the Americans as "slaves"

"LOL, chi nookaran shtaa no khpala sala zan marr koo.LOL."

to non pashto speakers this translates to:

"LOL, if we have slaves around then why would we kill ourselves, LOL."

This behavior, more than anything is unAmerican and does no service to the Pashtuns being killed for an agenda or the innocent Americans being sent to do the dirty work you ought to be doing yourself.

4. The contradiction between you and Toramana in terms of ideology and how to proceed is problematic not because one should have ill will, but rather because it shows the stark divide and lack of promise that your interventionalism holds.

The most common refrain that is ready in your mouths is: The only interventionalism that is problematic is Arab interventionalism... which is another canard to deflect from the above problems in your arguments.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Zama grana wrora, I may be a simpleton but even the village idiots know that what is happening in KP and larger pakhtunkhwa is anything but straight forward.

Your opposition to america is not based on whether it is economically a good or bad thing. You call them 'sur kafir' and wish them the same as your forefathers wished (and carried forth) for the 'tur kafir' (Siah-Posh Kafirs) in your beloved Afghanistan.

Was that an economically good thing, you bet it was for the King, he got some more land, was it good for the tur kafir citizens of afghanistan, I dont think you can sell me that they are better off. The king justified his actions by calling them enemies of Islam (as the name implies) and hence justified his loot.

To me these are economic equations. It is no longer economically feasible or necessary to have an Islamic reason for exploitation to further resources for the pashtoon. Other much more efficient and less destructive methods will yield us much more worldly gains.

The Islam 'gatta' aw 'tawan' is not my concern and the need for it to exploit some poor soul, I consider beghaarathi and below the honor worhty of a pakhtoon.

As far as disagreement with toramana, we are free thinking people,sometimes he will be right some times I will be, I am not offended if he is and he is I am sure not when I am. If evidence falls in his favor I change my opinion to his and hope he does the same. In a few years of posting here and there we have never come across an insurmountable obstacle where death was wished on the other.LOL


Also, regarding the Afghan King you speak of: remember Abdurrahman Khan, aka the Iron Amir, the forefather of the modern opportunist and sloppy politician, "Prince" Ali Seraj was maintained in power by the British and for the British. In Qandahar he devastated the Durrani confederacy and deported many of our tribal members to northern Afghanistan, guaranteeing the outcome we see today in terms of internicine strife. He also endorsed the durand line. What is interesting is that Dost Mohammad and Amanullah, each with a bit more of internal legitimacy, left the Nursitanis and others well enough alone compared to the Iron Amir. So once again, the fruits of western interventionalism were bitter for Afghanistan.

"Abdur Rahman was officially recognized as Amir, granted assistance in arms and money, and promised, in case of unprovoked foreign aggression, such further aid as might be necessary to repel it, provided that he align his foreign policy with the British. The British evacuation of Afghanistan was settled on the terms proposed, and in 1881, the British troops (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/British_Army) also handed over Kandahar to the new Amir."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan)

IamDZJ
02-11-2011, 10:54 PM
I dont see why our concern should concern you :tongue:

and by the way it's not concern, it's jest.

mine is curiosity not concern. mind you edge, you are fine and all that but you fight like women. that is an ability even i being a woman don't admire.

ScimitarXEdge
02-11-2011, 11:09 PM
mine is curiosity not concern. mind you edge, you are fine and all that but you fight like women. that is an ability even i being a woman don't admire.




You perceive it that way because of your own mode of behavior; but it's really not that dramatic.You fail to see that you're what you despise.

IamDZJ
02-11-2011, 11:17 PM
unfortunately for you, people and their interests or lack of it has nor ever will concern me.

there is a lot more to a person's being before their being of a man or a woman. i am many things before i am a woman.. that is something they forget about themselves as well as others. once again, it doesn't bother me.

Baygham
02-11-2011, 11:31 PM
Also, regarding the Afghan King you speak of: remember Abdurrahman Khan, aka the Iron Amir, the forefather of the modern opportunist and sloppy politician, "Prince" Ali Seraj was maintained in power by the British and for the British. In Qandahar he devastated the Durrani confederacy and deported many of our tribal members to northern Afghanistan, guaranteeing the outcome we see today in terms of internicine strife. He also endorsed the durand line. What is interesting is that Dost Mohammad and Amanullah, each with a bit more of internal legitimacy, left the Nursitanis and others well enough alone compared to the Iron Amir. So once again, the fruits of western interventionalism were bitter for Afghanistan.

"Abdur Rahman was officially recognized as Amir, granted assistance in arms and money, and promised, in case of unprovoked foreign aggression, such further aid as might be necessary to repel it, provided that he align his foreign policy with the British. The British evacuation of Afghanistan was settled on the terms proposed, and in 1881, the British troops (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/British_Army) also handed over Kandahar to the new Amir."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan)

so he did it to please the british, wow, they did give him muscats, but not to kill tor kafir whom they hardly counted as significant. he saw an oppurtunity that the afghans were waiting for, for centuries and that was the only reason no one else attempted before him, they remembered what happened to Tamur.
was the queen directing Tamurlane too, whose puppet was he, (I dont think Jeferson kaka was around) remember he tried to wipe them out centuries before as well. These damn tur kafir, damn hard to kill.
Regarding the usage of the term sur kafir: the point here was not to degrade Matthew Hoh, Michael Scheuer, or any of my American colleagues. Rather my point was to show you that someone with no investment in the Pakistani establishment, a marine commander with a conservative track record, an the head of the Afghan study group, a Christian without any support of Pan Islamism take the data you analyzed and comes to a completely different conclusion than you. Moreover, hypothesis that subseqeuntly were put out by him prove true again and again because his interpretation provides a dynamic ground level model for which to predict outcomes.
now you are being a simpleton, wrora. The pakistani establishment is the second biggest investment of the united states army after isreal. And Do you even know how much money is made on just the contractor side of this war (mostly by ex military guys). He is probably shifting to south sudan for more lucrative action and is throwing some nonsense for excuse and guys are falling over because a "sur kafar" said it, must be absolutely true.
His tenure appears to be getting over and a lucrative consultancy is likely being sought.

America is the best thing that has happened to us since slice bread. Now we have to learn to eat bread with some nice Jam and butter.LOL

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 12:11 AM
so he did it to please the british, wow, they did give him muscats, but not to kill tor kafir whom they hardly counted as significant. he saw an oppurtunity that the afghans were waiting for, for centuries and that was the only reason no one else attempted before him, they remembered what happened to Tamur.
was the queen directing Tamurlane too, whose puppet was he, (I dont think Jeferson kaka was around) remember he tried to wipe them out centuries before as well. These damn tur kafir, damn hard to kill.

now you are being a simpleton, wrora. The pakistani establishment is the second biggest investment of the united states army after isreal. And Do you even know how much money is made on just the contractor side of this war (mostly by ex military guys). He is probably shifting to south sudan for more lucrative action and is throwing some nonsense for excuse and guys are falling over because a "sur kafar" said it, must be absolutely true.
His tenure appears to be getting over and a lucrative consultancy is likely being sought.

America is the best thing that has happened to us since slice bread. Now we have to learn to eat bread with some nice Jam and butter.LOL

They could have easily killed them in Abdali's time, what stopped them then? The point was that Amir Dost Muhammad was in general, a moderate stabilizing force... Abdurrahman was a disaster and left behind disaster in his wake that screwed us over to this day. The British did not take over his cerebral cortex, but his stupidity is no different than Saddam's was for his country or Shah Pehlavi's was for his own country. How you can argue that an outside imposed leader will have the greater likelihood of caring for his nation and improving it against the evidences just in the modern world show an astounding naivete.

Regarding Hoh and Scheuer, they sacrificed personal gain and ambitions. No lucrative oil contracts for those guys... instead Scheuer subsequently lost a high ranked fellow position at the Jamestown foundation for continued speaking out and Hoh heads up the Afghan study group:

http://www.afghanistanstudygroup.org/2010/10/22/matthew-hoh-and-ann-jones-real-peace-for-afghanistan/ (http://www.afghanistanstudygroup.org/2010/10/22/matthew-hoh-and-ann-jones-real-peace-for-afghanistan/)

http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=14221 (http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=14221)

So try again brother... as usual you imposed a narrative that somehow grew in your own mind. You should be an author as your fiction skills are impressive to say the least!

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 12:19 AM
so he did it to please the british, wow, they did give him muscats, but not to kill tor kafir whom they hardly counted as significant. he saw an oppurtunity that the afghans were waiting for, for centuries and that was the only reason no one else attempted before him, they remembered what happened to Tamur.
was the queen directing Tamurlane too, whose puppet was he, (I dont think Jeferson kaka was around) remember he tried to wipe them out centuries before as well. These damn tur kafir, damn hard to kill.

now you are being a simpleton, wrora. The pakistani establishment is the second biggest investment of the united states army after isreal. And Do you even know how much money is made on just the contractor side of this war (mostly by ex military guys). He is probably shifting to south sudan for more lucrative action and is throwing some nonsense for excuse and guys are falling over because a "sur kafar" said it, must be absolutely true.
His tenure appears to be getting over and a lucrative consultancy is likely being sought.

America is the best thing that has happened to us since slice bread. Now we have to learn to eat bread with some nice Jam and butter.LOL

Also, America might very well be the best thing that has happend to Afghanistan because it appears to be a war that will once again, show on the fence supporters that the the acolytes of Osama Bin Ladin and the Taliban were correct that a superpower can be defeated with little arms and a lot of resolve and faith. It will happen slowly and surely, but it appears to be happening.

This is why I take exception with your view. You do not understand that you are actually hurting our new adopted country with your advocacy of adventurism and fighting demons abroad. The goal of America's adversaries is to involve us in a series of foreign expeditions to spread our forces thin and hammer our economy. They were overjoyed with the Iraqi invasion as that completley devastated America's security and regional agenda.

So it may very well be the case that as the Afghans once again earn their freedom and slough off another empire's hand, that a renewel will occur once and for all as the outside powers recede. In this way, America's presence is a blessing, but for her enemies brother.

This is exactly why you lead our fellow countrymen down the dark path of destruction and send them where you ought to be going to fight in their place. I prefer you to be airdropped into Wana with a M16 and allowed to form a sqaudron with Toramana and Maseed. You guys could call yourself the C-Team.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 12:48 AM
Also, America might very well be the best thing that has happend to Afghanistan because it appears to be a war that will once again, show on the fence supporters that the the acolytes of Osama Bin Ladin and the Taliban were correct that a superpower can be defeated with little arms and a lot of resolve and faith. It will happen slowly and surely, but it appears to be happening.

This is why I take exception with your view. You do not understand that you are actually hurting our new adopted country with your advocacy of adventurism and fighting demons abroad. The goal of America's adversaries is to involve us in a series of foreign expeditions to spread our forces thin and hammer our economy. They were overjoyed with the Iraqi invasion as that completley devastated America's security and regional agenda.

So it may very well be the case that as the Afghans once again earn their freedom and slough off another empire's hand, that a renewel will occur once and for all as the outside powers recede. In this way, America's presence is a blessing, but for her enemies brother.

This is exactly why you lead our fellow countrymen down the dark path of destruction and send them where you ought to be going to fight in their place. I prefer you to be airdropped into Wana with a M16 and allowed to form a sqaudron with Toramana and Maseed. You guys could call yourself the C-Team.

Stop pretending to be a patriotic american, which you are not. You will blow this great country tomorrow for arabian honor. Just for what is written on the wall in the Jefferson memorial I will let a thousand talibs perish, if it is threatened. to be honest, I dont even consider it american, america is a human achievement, build by humans from all corners of the world. I want the land of my father and forefathers to prosper and shine like America has. A red neck in Texas or that biatch from alaska, what the hell they know about Jefferson or what made this country great, I do feel threatened by them and the christen right who bring Jesus to everything, and I am not too thrilled by these liberal idiots either, who constantly spew bull crap like chomsky. Not understanding what is at stake.

American foriegn policy has made many mistakes, when personal ambition of the likes of Kessinger and other front man for military industrial complex have tarnished what has otherwise been the greatest human achievement. A nation which lets the best in an individual come out, which lets you live to the fullest, to tackle previously unthinkable challenges, the moon, medicine, physics, arts, brain sciences. Not for a few nobles and aristrocrats but for millions and millions of ordinary people.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 01:03 AM
They could have easily killed them in Abdali's time, what stopped them then? The point was that Amir Dost Muhammad was in general, a moderate stabilizing force... Abdurrahman was a disaster and left behind disaster in his wake that screwed us over to this day. The British did not take over his cerebral cortex, but his stupidity is no different than Saddam's was for his country or Shah Pehlavi's was for his own country. How you can argue that an outside imposed leader will have the greater likelihood of caring for his nation and improving it against the evidences just in the modern world show an astounding naivete.

Regarding Hoh and Scheuer, they sacrificed personal gain and ambitions. No lucrative oil contracts for those guys... instead Scheuer subsequently lost a high ranked fellow position at the Jamestown foundation for continued speaking out and Hoh heads up the Afghan study group:

http://www.afghanistanstudygroup.org/2010/10/22/matthew-hoh-and-ann-jones-real-peace-for-afghanistan/ (http://www.afghanistanstudygroup.org/2010/10/22/matthew-hoh-and-ann-jones-real-peace-for-afghanistan/)

http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=14221 (http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=14221)

So try again brother... as usual you imposed a narrative that somehow grew in your own mind. You should be an author as your fiction skills are impressive to say the least!

If the mighty tamurlane could not kill them, the puny abdali most certainly could not. Secondly why would he waste his breath on desolate nuristan when the riches of India lay bare. He may have been many things but i dont think abdali baba was a fool. If india had been settled, and his army free, along with myth of treasure in nuristan ripe, they would be sunny muslims a century earlier, i agree.

Never have I advocated a subservient role for pashtoons viz a viz a foriegn power. To me the arabs are as alien to pashtoon as american. May be more, because now that america is here ( i did not invite either them or the arabs) I rather side with them and use it as an opportunity to guide ourself to a future where some of the good of america can be replicated in watan. i see no good coming out of hijaz or raiwand or jaddah that is worth a single pashtoon red blood corpuscle.

I also know that america cannot and will not stay forever in afghanistan. The damn arab backed lunatics will for sure stay for a very long time. So even more paranoia.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 01:33 AM
Stop pretending to be a patriotic american, which you are not. You will blow this great country tomorrow for arabian honor. Just for what is written on the wall in the Jefferson memorial I will let a thousand talibs perish, if it is threatened. to be honest, I dont even consider it american, america is a human achievement, build by humans from all corners of the world. I want the land of my father and forefathers to prosper and shine like America has. A red neck in Texas or that biatch from alaska, what the hell they know about Jefferson or what made this country great, I do feel threatened by them and the christen right who bring Jesus to everything, and I am not too thrilled by these liberal idiots either, who constantly spew bull crap like chomsky. Not understanding what is at stake.

American foriegn policy has made many mistakes, when personal ambition of the likes of Kessinger and other front man for military industrial complex have tarnished what has otherwise been the greatest human achievement. A nation which lets the best in an individual come out, which lets you live to the fullest, to tackle previously unthinkable challenges, the moon, medicine, physics, arts, brain sciences. Not for a few nobles and aristrocrats but for millions and millions of ordinary people.

Hardly, I know I am more patriotic than you as I prefer that my fellow citizens that I grew up with avoid death and destruction. My best friend is an American Marine that is a Catholic redneck raised in Alabama serving in Bagram. Rather, it appears that you are willing to spill the blood of those whose forefathers built this country to further your vain desires over there.

Once again your ability to delete history and stated intentions of an occupier buttresses your fiction writing capability. When they (they meaning the neocons that you endorse) state that their goal is to send a man from Swabi to the moon you can be the first to volunteer for that role. I am sure that you can follow right along with those Egyptians, Tunisians, Iraqis, Iranians pre revolution, Pakistanis as of now, and step into history following their astronaut teams that the Americans have all sent to the moon. Then you can also hug the nobel prize winner in Physics when the Americans build the first collider lab in Swabi for you... right?

Are you this naieve?

Then, when you wake up from this dream that the constitution and progress follow the march of the flag and realize that instead of an astronauts suit you are wearing a red, white, and blue clown suit.

Once again, I urge you to take Toramana, Maseed, and yourself and fight those Arab inspired fanatics over there. You can find Fazlullah first and then take care of ole Hakimullah on your side of the durand fence brother. Though I figure you will feel far more comfortable as an arm chair warrior crying about "what is at stake."

What is at stake? Civilization because some rag tag group of people that comprise an enemy that is 3 feet tall that you have made 13 feet tall is going to nuke us? We could turn that whole place into green glass in 3 seconds if we wanted to.

Ill tell you what is at stake: its you, learning to shoot an M16 and going in place of my medical school roommate to Bagram so that he can sleep in his bed in Alabama at night while you deal with your own mess.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 01:38 AM
If the mighty tamurlane could not kill them, the puny abdali most certainly could not. Secondly why would he waste his breath on desolate nuristan when the riches of India lay bare. He may have been many things but i dont think abdali baba was a fool. If india had been settled, and his army free, along with myth of treasure in nuristan ripe, they would be sunny muslims a century earlier, i agree.

Never have I advocated a subservient role for pashtoons viz a viz a foriegn power. To me the arabs are as alien to pashtoon as american. May be more, because now that america is here ( i did not invite either them or the arabs) I rather side with them and use it as an opportunity to guide ourself to a future where some of the good of america can be replicated in watan. i see no good coming out of hijaz or raiwand or jaddah that is worth a single pashtoon red blood corpuscle.

I also know that america cannot and will not stay forever in afghanistan. The damn arab backed lunatics will for sure stay for a very long time. So even more paranoia.

Mayhap you did not invite them, but the rest of Pashtunistan appeared to do so and welcomed them with open arms from Wardag to Qandahar. They fought alongside the Pashtuns and expelled the Russian jaugernaut.

Once again, your next work of fiction ought to be called:
A Brave New Pashtun World by Baygham

In it you can continue to imagine that the American Tooth Ferry is there to "benefit" you. Have you seen the cheap crap that the firms are using to build the Afghan infrastructure? Somehow in your warped world, they are transplanting the financial district of Manhattan to Qandahar. Such fiction is amazing in its capacity to avoid coming to grips with reality.

If you like them so much, please take them to Khybar Pashtunkhwa and let them stay in Swabi... it appears that we do not want them in our neck of the woods.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 01:49 AM
Hardly, I know I am more patriotic than you as I prefer that my fellow citizens that I grew up with avoid death and destruction. My best friend is an American Marine that is a Catholic redneck raised in Alabama serving in Bagram. Rather, it appears that you are willing to spill the blood of those whose forefathers built this country to further your vain desires over there.

Once again your ability to delete history and stated intentions of an occupier buttresses your fiction writing capability. When they (they meaning the neocons that you endorse) state that their goal is to send a man from Swabi to the moon you can be the first to volunteer for that role. I am sure that you can follow right along with those Egyptians, Tunisians, Iraqis, Iranians pre revolution, Pakistanis as of now, and step into history following their astronaut teams that the Americans have all sent to the moon. Then you can also hug the nobel prize winner in Physics when the Americans build the first collider lab in Swabi for you... right?

Are you this naieve?

Then, when you wake up from this dream that the constitution and progress follow the march of the flag and realize that instead of an astronauts suit you are wearing a red, white, and blue clown suit.

Once again, I urge you to take Toramana, Maseed, and yourself and fight those Arab inspired fanatics over there. You can find Fazlullah first and then take care of ole Hakimullah on your side of the durand fence brother. Though I figure you will feel far more comfortable as an arm chair warrior crying about "what is at stake."

What is at stake? Civilization because some rag tag group of people that comprise an enemy that is 3 feet tall that you have made 13 feet tall is going to nuke us? We could turn that whole place into green glass in 3 seconds if we wanted to.

Ill tell you what is at stake: its you, learning to shoot an M16 and going in place of my medical school roommate to Bagram so that he can sleep in his bed in Alabama at night while you deal with your own mess.

If he is scarred help him return the money he took for college, or did you do the same and now you are peeing in your pants. Its a volunteer army, were you guys drunk when you volunteered. Chi ookhan saathi no darwazee ba dhangi saathi, tinga ka. Now even the dont ask dont tell can be used. Other wise you two could have arranged some drama, if you get my drift. LOL.

As we are having this imaginary policy talk, 150000 soldiers from NATO and a quarter of million others are in Afghanistan. I honestly dont remember sending a single invitation. But I wont mind 150000 in pakhtunkwha, do you have some more roommates, guys come over and payoff the loans that you took. Where is Rumsfield kaka when you need him.

Alchemist
02-12-2011, 01:52 AM
Dr. Abdali,
Every time I read this bayghairat's opinion I feel sick to my stomach.
It is such an unsettling feeling to know that there exists an Afghan who has been so subjugated and indoctrinated by the enemies of his forefather, that he would rather kill his own than tarnish the "highest achievement of humanity". He must be referring to the colonial prowess of Americans as they efficiently exterminated the indigenous, used negros for their plantations, and made war in other countries and keeps the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. Oh yeah, but those damn arabs...they brought Islam which is the what causes him nightmares...and you sit there dabbling with this fool like his opinion is valuable?
This fool watches his sister date americans...it goes without saying that he wants america to run afghanistan. When did the arabs ever rule over afghanistan? You are talking about 300 years ago ..this fool is ranting about 1400 years ago...he hates islam, he hates the fact that 99% of Pashtuns are muslims so why do you keep taking the stick and stirring his b.s? Please doc ... you are causing more harm than good this way.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 02:00 AM
Dr. Abdali,
Every time I read this bayghairat's opinion I feel sick to my stomach.
It is such an unsettling feeling to know that there exists an Afghan who has been so subjugated and indoctrinated by the enemies of his forefather, that he would rather kill his own than tarnish the "highest achievement of humanity". He must be referring to the colonial prowess of Americans as they efficiently exterminated the indigenous, used negros for their plantations, and made war in other countries and keeps the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. Oh yeah, but those damn arabs...they brought Islam which is the what causes him nightmares...and you sit there dabbling with this fool like his opinion is valuable?
This fool watches his sister date americans...it goes without saying that he wants america to run afghanistan. When did the arabs ever rule over afghanistan? You are talking about 300 years ago ..this fool is ranting about 1400 years ago...he hates islam, he hates the fact that 99% of Pashtuns are muslims so why do you keep taking the stick and stirring his b.s? Please doc ... you are causing more harm than good this way.

Dear BA, heed the advice of your fellow chakra inspired alchemist, run run for beygham may eat you alive, he is a big "baww". His sister dates americans, how scary. And he would kidnap all your roommates, and put them on guard duty in waziristan.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 02:05 AM
If he is scarred help him return the money he took for college, or did you do the same and now you are peeing in your pants. Its a volunteer army, were you guys drunk when you volunteered. Chi ookhan saathi no darwazee ba dhangi saathi, tinga ka. Now even the dont ask dont tell can be used. Other wise you two could have arranged some drama, if you get my drift. LOL.

As we are having this imaginary policy talk, 150000 soldiers from NATO and a quarter of million others are in Afghanistan. I honestly dont remember sending a single invitation. But I wont mind 150000 in pakhtunkwha, do you have some more roommates, guys come over and payoff the loans that you took. Where is Rumsfield kaka when you need him.

Sorry to ruin yet another fiction generated storyline that you started. Seriously, you must write these down as you could collect a short story book out of them. This can be about a doctor that you suspect is madhabi salafi with a long flowing beard who wears a koofi to work and yet has taken many loans and yanks at the paaryaan tombaan of the devotees as they line up for prayer.

The reality is, my friend, my tuition was free as I was educated through a physician scientist/MSTP pathway my friend! So by God's grace, I have $0.00 loan debt.

His family has served in the military since the confederacy and he had no fear whatsoever of going.

The issue though is that you have not served or ever fired a pistol... are you ready to be air dropped into Wana? Are you ready to quit emulating Rumsfeld kaka who would be doing what you do and sending others to hunt Fazlullah and Hakimullah down for you?

I can see it now... a dusty Waziristan day and a helicopter overhead... Mazlum Yaar Massed is a little slow so he doesnt deploy his parachute on time. The last two members of the C-Team, Toramana and Baygham must brave the elements to catch two rogue mullahs and save Khybar Pashtunkhwa.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 02:09 AM
Dear BA, heed the advice of your fellow chakra inspired alchemist, run run for beygham may eat you alive, he is a big "baww". His sister dates americans, how scary. And he would kidnap all your roommates, and put them on guard duty in waziristan.

Remember, reality is a whole lot more entertaining Baygham. Please join us there one day. You will require the following tools: a grasp on logic, evidence for statements, losing that ability to generate filler storylines for what you do not know of history, a compass for your upcoming C Team battle in Waziristan!

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 02:15 AM
Dear BA, heed the advice of your fellow chakra inspired alchemist, run run for beygham may eat you alive, he is a big "baww". His sister dates americans, how scary. And he would kidnap all your roommates, and put them on guard duty in waziristan.

Oh I forgot, in reality land you will need a compass for your anti lmoonzoona LOL. Preferably a real one, not a fictional one.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 02:18 AM
Sorry to ruin yet another fiction generated storyline that you started. Seriously, you must write these down as you could collect a short story book out of them. This can be about a doctor that you suspect is madhabi salafi with a long flowing beard who wears a koofi to work and yet has taken many loans and yanks at the paaryaan tombaan of the devotees as they line up for prayer.

The reality is, my friend, my tuition was free as I was educated through a physician scientist/MSTP pathway my friend! So by God's grace, I have $0.00 loan debt.

His family has served in the military since the confederacy and he had no fear whatsoever of going.

The issue though is that you have not served or ever fired a pistol... are you ready to be air dropped into Wana? Are you ready to quit emulating Rumsfeld kaka who would doing what you do and sending others to hunt Fazlullah and Hakimullah down for you?

I can see it now... a dusty Waziristan day and a helicopter overhead... Mazlum Yaar Massed is a little slow so he doesnt deploy his parachute on time. The last two members of the C-Team, Toramana and Baygham must brave the elements to catch two rogue mullahs and save Khybar Pashtunkhwa.

bia khu mazee dhi peera, chi dharla aw clinic ba kandahar ki koolaw koo, sa khyal dhi dhay,

As for hunting fazlullah and hakimullah or for that matter allah, rumsfield kaka knows who to call, if he wanted them silenced.
Khair kho pa dhee ki dhay, chi ghuubal garam wee, no dha tooloo kar rawan wee. Unfortunately I did not make a single penny in this war. I have to stay contend with just seeing some talib ass whipping, hoping one day rumsfield chacha will oblige and have a soap opera / action movie run in pakthunkhwa. keeday chi dha waziristan sa zanawar insanan shi, darwin would be astonished at that rate of progress.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 02:22 AM
Dr. Abdali,
Every time I read this bayghairat's opinion I feel sick to my stomach.
It is such an unsettling feeling to know that there exists an Afghan who has been so subjugated and indoctrinated by the enemies of his forefather, that he would rather kill his own than tarnish the "highest achievement of humanity". He must be referring to the colonial prowess of Americans as they efficiently exterminated the indigenous, used negros for their plantations, and made war in other countries and keeps the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. Oh yeah, but those damn arabs...they brought Islam which is the what causes him nightmares...and you sit there dabbling with this fool like his opinion is valuable?
This fool watches his sister date americans...it goes without saying that he wants america to run afghanistan. When did the arabs ever rule over afghanistan? You are talking about 300 years ago ..this fool is ranting about 1400 years ago...he hates islam, he hates the fact that 99% of Pashtuns are muslims so why do you keep taking the stick and stirring his b.s? Please doc ... you are causing more harm than good this way.

Dont worry brother, its hardly harmful... folks see that he connects dots to straight lines instead of other dots, inserts opinion into fact, and has an agenda that even he admits is in the abysmal minority at home. The latter admission on his part is a success.

Also, I feel that he could become the next Stephen King and really write some good story lines. As his Pashtun brother I want him to develop this skill further and am helping him to do so. Thus far he has generated a novella about a Santa Clause like Superpower that trots the globe giving out Manhattan Financial districts to poor countries that it occupies, a short story about Arabs turned termites infesting the trees of Pashtunistan, and a classic story about a young nationalist living abroad but so wanting to bring that highest achievement of humanity to his father's doorstep that he will start a team of rogue nationalists that will fight their own war from now on.

Finally his fascination with homosexual innuendo and dont ask dont tell show that he has some issues to work out ala Tim Haggard. But thats his own thing.

Dont worry, I shall sleep now, but I look forward to his next big attempt at actually writing something that is fact based or evidence based.

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 09:23 AM
Dr. Abdali,
Every time I read this bayghairat's opinion I feel sick to my stomach.
It is such an unsettling feeling to know that there exists an Afghan who has been so subjugated and indoctrinated by the enemies of his forefather, that he would rather kill his own than tarnish the "highest achievement of humanity". He must be referring to the colonial prowess of Americans as they efficiently exterminated the indigenous, used negros for their plantations, and made war in other countries and keeps the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons. Oh yeah, but those damn arabs...they brought Islam which is the what causes him nightmares...and you sit there dabbling with this fool like his opinion is valuable?
This fool watches his sister date americans...it goes without saying that he wants america to run afghanistan. When did the arabs ever rule over afghanistan? You are talking about 300 years ago ..this fool is ranting about 1400 years ago...he hates islam, he hates the fact that 99% of Pashtuns are muslims so why do you keep taking the stick and stirring his b.s? Please doc ... you are causing more harm than good this way.

is this part factual; or are you extrapolating that from his writings?

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 09:36 AM
unfortunately for you, people and their interests or lack of it has nor ever will concern me.

there is a lot more to a person's being before their being of a man or a woman. i am many things before i am a woman.. that is something they forget about themselves as well as others. once again, it doesn't bother me.

Yet you came here not for the debate, but specifically for a few off comments in the thread;but no that's simply curiosity, not concern at all right?

And yet even in your own rhetoric, you contradict yourself, now if anything were characteristic of female argument/fighting strategy, self contradiction is it. Males tend to stay consistent in their positions.

I think you need a good vacation, not just from forums, but people in general , some soul searching should do you good. You need to learn to be able to simply step back and not view everything as a threat to your identity.

IamDZJ
02-12-2011, 10:29 AM
Yet you came here not for the debate, but specifically for a few off comments in the thread;but no that's simply curiosity, not concern at all right?

And yet even in your own rhetoric, you contradict yourself, now if anything were characteristic of female argument/fighting strategy, self contradiction is it. Males tend to stay consistent in their positions.

I think you need a good vacation, not just from forums, but people in general , some soul searching should do you good. You need to learn to be able to simply step back and not view everything as a threat to your identity.

my identity? i was simply bored so i clicked on the thread and that is what i saw. i am not taking anything as a threat to myself nor does my soul need searching for. i could use the vacation though.
that thing that you call consistency is a form of idleness to me. and your habit of suggesting the vacation, dullness of your character. would you have been able to make your point with out the latter?
women like shortcuts. men are too stubborn to give their brain a break.
good day to you sir..

Alchemist
02-12-2011, 12:19 PM
is this part factual; or are you extrapolating that from his writings?


factual:

he is beghairat and beynomoose.

And zohra, the more you argue with her the more opinionated and dramatic she gets. It's like watching you argue with a 5 year old that likes to tease and taunt her elders for attention and recognition. What has been her argument? That she was right and you were wrong? LOL tell her she won...let her have this one Scimitar...don't be a meanie.


Dr. Abdali,
baygham a novelist?
You need imagination and creativity to play that part. But all he is capable of doing is regurgitate what his uncle rumsfeld fed of excuses for bombing his folks in waziristan ..."for their own good". The fool thinks taliban are some alien beings that have invaded waziristan from beyound the moon... and worse off he thinks he is american. It's more like you are working with a patient suffering from severe psychosis ...no he aint no Autistic Savant he is just a white washed wannabe. Hardly deserves any recognition...
What has been his argument so far? That he is scary? LOL
that we fear him and his secular ideology? pffftt.....And all that aside, I seriously doubt he is a he. He sounds so much more like a she after I read her ridiculous blog entries about mothers, as if the only thing he understands is the matriarchy. The dude is confused ...stop embarrassing him.

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 01:00 PM
factual:

he is beghairat and beynomoose.
.


so did he openly admit that his sister does this or that he would allow it if it happened?

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 01:25 PM
my identity? i was simply bored so i clicked on the thread and that is what i saw. i am not taking anything as a threat to myself nor does my soul need searching for. i could use the vacation though.
that thing that you call consistency is a form of idleness to me. and your habit of suggesting the vacation, dullness of your character. would you have been able to make your point with out the latter?
women like shortcuts. men are too stubborn to give their brain a break.
good day to you sir..


well it's idleness to you because stagnancy is the only consistency you can relate to; for me consistency just means having cohesive ideas operating over how you address different matters. Women like short cuts, on which planet? One needs only look at the exorbitant cravings that women generally possess to know the falsity of the notion, just look at the wedding threads and you'll see what I mean. If the idea of you taking a vacation alludes to the dullness of character, than I am guilty as charged, I'd rather be dull than waste myself away with vapid "curiosities".

Baygham
02-12-2011, 01:30 PM
so did he openly admit that his sister does this or that he would allow it if it happened?

You can ask me directly SX, and I meant what I said in my private post. I respect your position, but you see you are an apostate to them just like me. In pakistan they have and will kill you for what you believe in. It is not even a matter of right or wrong, but about a fundamentaly more basic question. Do we as humans even have the right to believe what we think is right or not. I say we do. The beliefs that you have in a western country where you are not threatened for them, cannot be kept in Pakhtunkhwa, my experiment is unfolding on that other thread as we speak.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/mutazilah-its-pashtoon-relevence-scimitarxedge-13489/ (http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/mutazilah-its-pashtoon-relevence-scimitarxedge-13489/)

As far as my sister dating a kafir or musalman gringo, If she is 18 and settled in life, my love and support for her will not change, regardless of whether she chooses to become a mutazali, or an atheist, whether she dates a negro or a gringo. I hope that she will carry herself with dignity and honor because I believe she will, if she chooses not to, goes and becomes a topless dancer, something I dont endorse for anyone, I will be disappointed and will show my disappointment by voicing it and not by violence.

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 01:37 PM
You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. This is an anonymous forum and here my name is Baygham. Some say I am a doctor, I never said that. I am from Swabi KP. Just visited the damn place. I have never set foot in kandahar or kabul, have friends and family that do business there and I do interact with them almost on daily basis. I have no political or economic aspirations in watan. Uncle sam kaka has been kind and I do OK in USA.

My impressions of pashtoo and pashtoons is many from KP, a little from Quetta which i have visited quite a few times, some friends from FATA and some visits there, mainly khyber. Nothing else.

Nomads I have seen I must confess, here and there, I dont think anyone in the next 100 years will ask them for what to do in PK. They have no role to play in the making of any sort of social or political movement in KP. Hence there irrelevance. I am not sure if they wield more power in afghanistan, may be they do, God bless you guys then, if they do. We are a little far away from having a 'koochi' sardar as our boss.

More pashtoons are killed by fellow pashtoons in pakhtunkhwa than are killed by americans. I dont have absolute statistics but can safely say that if we count all the murders in KP that occur daily, from family clashes, domestic violence, tribal friction, suicide bombing, taliban killing and vise versa, the total is probably a lot more than NATA killing of afghans on a daily basis.
since you like facts, here is one calculated murder rate in peshawar (22.9/100,000/ year)http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/18-4/06%20Murad%20Zafar%20MArri.pdf
extrapolate to the whole KP/FATA the rate comes to 4400-5500/ year. The study was in 2002, a year of no talib voilence as MMA was in power, now you can imagine what it is.
compared to civilian deaths by NATO is less than a few hundred Afghanistan civilian casualties: year by year, month by month. Visualised data | News | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics#zoomed-picture)


We have way bigger problems than who is pumping karzai and dha cha pa moor sook ****** dhi. Our culture is in decay, economic activity is at a stand still, social order is disintegrating, and nobody knows what to do.

Ka pa sijdoo dha sizoona sameeday noo thar hussa ba 'mars' tha las zalla thalee oo.



These references listed here detail a very sad and disheartening picture of what happens in Peshawar, none the less they only deal with Peshawar and more over the scalar distribution of the but let's turn the argument around on it's head. More Americans are killed every year by more Americans than by Muslims/Middle Easterners/Pashtuns, every year. In fact the Sept 11 which killed 3000 people, was not the leading cause of violent death in 2001. Yet regardless, the U.S. took it as an initiative to go into combat and entrench themselves into the South Central Asian region for nearly a decade now. Not attempting to compare our motives with America's. The point is what happens between ourselves are internal issues issues we must address amongst ourselves, what happens due to a foreign military power is no longer an internal issue but an external problem imposed on the population.


The measure of variables in human misery is not simply death, although that is the most apparent; Numerous variables and measure of the grotesque impact of American Intrusion/Occupation military aggression are having far outreaching consequences on Pashtoons than any Phantom Boogeymen Arabs or murders in Peshawar can account for.

Take for example Socio-Economics, American intervention has affected Khyber Pakhtunkwah adversely; their supply to the Pakistani Army/Military has allowed them to impose themselves against the population which curtails the economic functions and relationships in the local region and arrests their day to day lives, just to serve the American agenda. Local resources are being allocated to serve American geopolitical interests. And this is simply the impact of surface military activities; the impact of Capitalism on a global scale and it's hegemonistic interference with the natural economic relationships of a people is far reaching and accounts of why there is destitution in Asian states who have experienced the brunt of Capitalist/Industrial attritions.

Environmentally and Public Health; America has used Depleted Uranium in Eastern Afghanistan; I describe these things as being a form of Radioactive Genocide. What sort of health and environmental consequences would such a a situation have? Creating multitudes of genetic illnesses, completely debilitating large segments of the population; where merely living itself becomes incapable The impact is far reaching and affects millions. At least with deaths in Peshawar, Pashtoons can have potential and capability to survive; the consequence crimes such as these, that will be robbed completely.BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Afghans' uranium levels spark alert (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3050317.stm)

No Arab, Mullah or such has done such, in fact outside of suicide attacks the actual damage or threat to Pashtoon culture and people has been extremely miminal. People still speak Pashto, dance Attan, have a chance to survive and retain their dignity despite those; but the case isn't true in the opposite situation, Capitalist Imperialism. if you're willing to "tolerate the impacts" of American/Capitalist intrusion, then the priorities you have is more against your people than for it.


Your angst with Islaam is levied upon the fulcrum of "a night out with friends without the worry of unverified variables"; and this outweighs your concern for the detriment to life of the average Pashtoon that Imperialism in it's historical and contemporary form...when you examine things without selective reference of facts and realities.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 02:07 PM
These references listed here detail a very sad and disheartening picture of what happens in Peshawar, none the less they only deal with Peshawar and more over the scalar distribution of the but let's turn the argument around on it's head. More Americans are killed every year by more Americans than by Muslims/Middle Easterners/Pashtuns, every year. In fact the Sept 11 which killed 3000 people, was not the leading cause of violent death in 2001. Yet regardless, the U.S. took it as an initiative to go into combat and entrench themselves into the South Central Asian region for nearly a decade now. Not attempting to compare our motives with America's. The point is what happens between ourselves are internal issues issues we must address amongst ourselves, what happens due to a foreign military power is no longer an internal issue but an external problem imposed on the population.


The measure of variables in human misery is not simply death, although that is the most apparent; Numerous variables and measure of the grotesque impact of American Intrusion/Occupation military aggression are having far outreaching consequences on Pashtoons than any Phantom Boogeymen Arabs or murders in Peshawar can account for.

Take for example Socio-Economics, American intervention has affected Khyber Pakhtunkwah adversely; their supply to the Pakistani Army/Military has allowed them to impose themselves against the population which curtails the economic functions and relationships in the local region and arrests their day to day lives, just to serve the American agenda. Local resources are being allocated to serve American geopolitical interests. And this is simply the impact of surface military activities; the impact of Capitalism on a global scale and it's hegemonistic interference with the natural economic relationships of a people is far reaching and accounts of why there is destitution in Asian states who have experienced the brunt of Capitalist/Industrial attritions.

Environmentally and Public Health; America has used Depleted Uranium in Eastern Afghanistan; I describe these things as being a form of Radioactive Genocide. What sort of health and environmental consequences would such a a situation have? Creating multitudes of genetic illnesses, completely debilitating large segments of the population; where merely living itself becomes incapable The impact is far reaching and affects millions. At least with deaths in Peshawar, Pashtoons can have potential and capability to survive; the consequence crimes such as these, that will be robbed completely.BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Afghans' uranium levels spark alert (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3050317.stm)

No Arab, Mullah or such has done such, in fact outside of suicide attacks the actual damage or threat to Pashtoon culture and people has been extremely miminal. People still speak Pashto, dance Attan, have a chance to survive and retain their dignity despite those; but the case isn't true in the opposite situation, Capitalist Imperialism. if you're willing to "tolerate the impacts" of American/Capitalist intrusion, then the priorities you have is more against your people than for it.


Your angst with Islaam is levied upon the fulcrum of "a night out with friends without the worry of unverified variables"; and this outweighs your concern for the detriment to life of the average Pashtoon that Imperialism in it's historical and contemporary form...when you examine things without selective reference of facts and realities.
This is your impression SX, things on the ground are different, I am privy to the best economical reports of the area, long before americans came there. Americans are not in pakhtoon land to help us become better human beings. They have their internal reasons with global geopolitical repurcussions. Pashtoons are not part of that debate, our dicisions are being done for us by Tajiks and punjabies because we dont talk to the 600 pounds gorilla in the room, we have the gazillion pound God on our side. Such rubbish makes us one of the most exploited nation in the world. All I wish for is a direct channel with the 600 pound gorilla so we can soothe its desire for what ever and go back to growing and selling chewing tobacco (naswar). since this is a big service for the 600 hundred pound gorilla, we may be able to emulate what happened in South korea or war ravaged germany and japan. The gorilla is here, why not turn our fate, its just that simple, why let a million corporations and outsiders profit from our misery, why not aim for some progress ourselves, under the circumstances.

And I dont understand why you got so irked by my "evening with friends", you know we are not even allowed to gather peacefully without having 10 guards on the look out for suicide children pumped up by zeolots for outsiders to shun us from a debate. I am not talking about a night out with dancing girls and wiskey, I am talking about a private gathering to discuss our fate.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 02:20 PM
This is your impression SX, things on the ground are different, I am privy to the best economical reports of the area, long before americans came there. Americans are not in pakhtoon land to help us become better human beings. They have their internal reasons with global geopolitical repurcussions. Pashtoons are not part of that debate, our dicisions are being done for us by Tajiks and punjabies because we dont talk to the 600 pounds gorilla in the room, we have the gazillion pound God on our side. Such rubbish makes us one of the most exploited nation in the world. All I wish for is a direct channel with the 600 pound gorilla so we can soothe its desire for what ever and go back to growing and selling chewing tobacco (naswar). since this is a big service for the 600 hundred pound gorilla, we may be able to emulate what happened in South korea or war ravaged germany and japan. The gorilla is here, why not turn our fate, its just that simple, why let a million corporations and outside profit from our misery, why not aim for some progress ourselves, under the circumstances.

And I dont understand why you got so irked by my "evening with friends", you know we are not even allowed to gather peacefully without having 10 guards on the look out for suicide children pumped up by zeolots for outsiders to shun us from a debate.


Well I guess thats a fair question, but you have to allow for a fair answer. The problem is that historically, exploitation follows attempts at harnassing what those corporate interests want in the third world. Japan appears to be an exception to the rule and its case study is one that I need to read up on (it had no riches to exploit though). However, I refer you to the issues in Nigeria:

"Oilmen looking for an alternative to the politically troubled oil fields of the Middle East think they see one beneath the waters off West Africa. The bad news is that the arc of nations stretching along the shore of the Gulf of Guinea from the Ivory Coast (http://www.pashtunforums.com/index.php?title=Ivory_Coast) to Angola (http://www.pashtunforums.com/index.php?title=Angola) looks as politically testing as Arabian ones," Paul Maidment wrote (http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/07/cx_pm_0307westafrica_print.html) March 10, 2003, in Forbes.

"the BBC (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/BBC) reported that MEND was fighting for "total control" of the Niger Delta's oil wealth, saying local people had not gained from the riches under the ground and the region's creeks and swamps."[3] (http://www.pashtunforums.com/#cite_note-2)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_the_Emancipation_of_the_Niger_Delta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_the_Emancipation_of_the_Niger_Delta)

So I think at times what you are seeing when you read our posts is that you bunch us together and assume that this has even 10% to do with religion. Even amongst ourselves, Alchemist, SXEdge, and I have divergent views.

Much of my motivation comes from historical precedent. In fact, if you read a lot of what I wrote, my understanding of the Quran and sunnah is cursory and based on self study. But as I noted, you assign a God motivation to each of my thought processes that just doesnt exist. My education and knowledge of history, of Tecumseh the Brave, of Wallace and Bruce, of Guevara, or our own revolution, of Simon Bolivar... these are my reference points as much as my faith.

In fact, here is an interesting story to show you that religion only plays a part of the role in this conflict, some of it is personal, some of it is has to do with resources, and a bunch of it has to do with the fact that Pashtuns view land as being a sacred commodity. Go try to buy land in Qandahar... they ask you where your family is from, what clan you derive from, where your father is buried etc.:

http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html (http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html)

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 02:30 PM
You can ask me directly SX, and I meant what I said in my private post. I respect your position, but you see you are an apostate to them just like me. In pakistan they have and will kill you for what you believe in. It is not even a matter of right or wrong, but about a fundamentaly more basic question. Do we as humans even have the right to believe what we think is right or not. I say we do. The beliefs that you have in a western country where you are not threatened for them, cannot be kept in Pakhtunkhwa, my experiment is unfolding on that other thread as we speak.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/mutazilah-its-pashtoon-relevence-scimitarxedge-13489/ (http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/mutazilah-its-pashtoon-relevence-scimitarxedge-13489/)

As far as my sister dating a kafir or musalman gringo, If she is 18 and settled in life, my love and support for her will not change, regardless of whether she chooses to become a mutazali, or an atheist, whether she dates a negro or a gringo. I hope that she will carry herself with dignity and honor because I believe she will, if she chooses not to, goes and becomes a topless dancer, something I dont endorse for anyone, I will be disappointed and will show my disappointment by voicing it and not by violence.

I was reading that thread, and I will say that you have been pretty intellectually dishonest in your use of quotations and even the example that you relied on to support your claim.

First Shimla himself follows an interpretation derived from Salafism, which is a minority stream of thought amongst Muslims in general nevermind Pashtoons. they do not represent mainstream Islam.

Secondly; Sangar and I have known each other for quite awhile. I knew him in times in which if you were to compare who he is now with who he is then, you'd believe you're speaking of two completely different people. In fact you might be surprised to know that he was very similar to you not long ago; who knows maybe you'll end up a Salafi in a few years? Much like you feel this angst for waking up your loved ones; I too am vexed by you, I feel the same towards you as you do with others, I wish I could shake you and wake you up. Your explanation of your moral or lack of a moral attitude here is disheartening.

he never levied takfir on me, but has spoken of my views critically as an abberation. It's important to note that while Islaam does mandate that Allah(swt) is right and that there can be no err; it doesn't however deem certain ways of understanding the truth as necessarily rendering oneself an apostate; much like there are certain criteria as to how Islaam determines it's creed, there are certain standards that determines if someone is outside the creed.

As long as someone believes in the Absoluteness of Allah(swt), that Qur'an is the revelation of Allah(swt) to Muhammad (saw) and the explicit injunctions, that Muhammad(saw) is his final messenger, one is Muslim; everything else is secondary in identifying Muslimhood. So he didn't call me a kafir; the most he did was say my perceptions on certain matters are abberations from the position he endorses. If merely disagreeing on a position itself was enough to expel one from Islam, then Imam Malik, Hanifa, Hanbali and Shafi'i would be deeming each other kufar. There are certain categories on which one must disregard to be a kafir. Which even Sangar and others know I have never crossed.


On the issue of violence and cohesion to social standards; Violence is a serious issue and should not be addressed as a casual matter, the choice of acting upon violence is something which has long standing impact and should be deliberated carefully. However, but I'm not a pacifist. I don't take Adam nd Eve literally, much like you I believe in the Naturalistic interpretation of anthropogenesis; I also believe that humans have an intrinsic faculty which evokes violence but similarly we have a faculty that illicits peace. Anthropologically speaking, I have come to peace with human nature, both the violent aspects and the peaceful and gentle ones; they're both necessary components of the human experience. However, I see both aspects as evolving to serve certain general aims and when either go out of hand they end of causing detriment. Generally societies have applied violence in context to situations which their general access to the means of survival and/or when the behavior of one of it's members is not compatible with the continuity of the societal fabric. I cannot say that I would think the situation described would be compatible with the continuity of Pashtoons or people of our region in general; sometimes dealing such situations swiftly is what's better for us.

شمله ور خراساني
02-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Mahmood, its Shamla. Not Shimla. I am not an India city. You az a fellow Ghaljay should know.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Well I guess thats a fair question, but you have to allow for a fair answer. The problem is that historically, exploitation follows attempts at harnassing what those corporate interests want in the third world. Japan appears to be an exception to the rule and its case study is one that I need to read up on (it had no riches to exploit though). However, I refer you to the issues in Nigeria:

"Oilmen looking for an alternative to the politically troubled oil fields of the Middle East think they see one beneath the waters off West Africa. The bad news is that the arc of nations stretching along the shore of the Gulf of Guinea from the Ivory Coast (http://www.pashtunforums.com/index.php?title=Ivory_Coast) to Angola (http://www.pashtunforums.com/index.php?title=Angola) looks as politically testing as Arabian ones," Paul Maidment wrote (http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/07/cx_pm_0307westafrica_print.html) March 10, 2003, in Forbes.

"the BBC (http://www.pashtunforums.com/wiki/BBC) reported that MEND was fighting for "total control" of the Niger Delta's oil wealth, saying local people had not gained from the riches under the ground and the region's creeks and swamps."[3] (http://www.pashtunforums.com/#cite_note-2)"

[/URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_the_Emancipation_of_the_Niger_Delta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_the_Emancipation_of_the_Niger_Delta)

So I think at times what you are seeing when you read our posts is that you bunch us together and assume that this has even 10% to do with religion. Even amongst ourselves, Alchemist, SXEdge, and I have divergent views.

Much of my motivation comes from historical precedent. In fact, if you read a lot of what I wrote, my understanding of the Quran and sunnah is cursory and based on self study. But as I noted, you assign a God motivation to each of my thought processes that just doesnt exist. My education and knowledge of history, of Tecumseh the Brave, of Wallace and Bruce, of Guevara, or our own revolution, of Simon Bolivar... these are my reference points as much as my faith.

In fact, here is an interesting story to show you that religion only plays a part of the role in this conflict, some of it is personal, some of it is has to do with resources, and a bunch of it has to do with the fact that Pashtuns view land as being a sacred commodity. Go try to buy land in Qandahar... they ask you where your family is from, what clan you derive from, where your father is buried etc.:

[URL]http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html (http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html)

Japan had amassed resources (most still unaccounted and reportedly distributed among the conquerors what some now call Old money if you count opium trade money to china and the clipper ships with it) from its torching of large swathes of asia prior to the war. Just looting eastern china could fill a few floors of the federal reserve in New york. Now I do understand that Yama****a's gold may be a mythical concoction, but Japan still pays a lot of the costs of a gringo force in asia, is that not more than any reported treasure chest. Who do you think is building new Kabul city, are the japenese so generous, its uncle sam chacha's guiding hand.

BTW the known mineral wealth in afghanistan (mostly pashtoon areas) over a trillion dollars. Peera we know what is at stake, everyone knows its about resources here in this world, everyone except the kamakal pashtoon masses. Forever exploited by a call to honor, almost always by outsiders at our expense and their profit. How very stupid.

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 02:52 PM
This is your impression SX, things on the ground are different, I am privy to the best economical reports of the area, long before americans came there. Americans are not in pakhtoon land to help us become better human beings. They have their internal reasons with global geopolitical repurcussions. Pashtoons are not part of that debate, our dicisions are being done for us by Tajiks and punjabies because we dont talk to the 600 pounds gorilla in the room, we have the gazillion pound God on our side. Such rubbish makes us one of the most exploited nation in the world. All I wish for is a direct channel with the 600 pound gorilla so we can soothe its desire for what ever and go back to growing and selling chewing tobacco (naswar). since this is a big service for the 600 hundred pound gorilla, we may be able to emulate what happened in South korea or war ravaged germany and japan. The gorilla is here, why not turn our fate, its just that simple, why let a million corporations and outsiders profit from our misery, why not aim for some progress ourselves, under the circumstances.

And I dont understand why you got so irked by my "evening with friends", you know we are not even allowed to gather peacefully without having 10 guards on the look out for suicide children pumped up by zeolots for outsiders to shun us from a debate. I am not talking about a night out with dancing girls and wiskey, I am talking about a private gathering to discuss our fate.

Well my supposition wasn't to deny that the Pakistani establishment (I won't say Punjabis, because poor rural Punjabis rarely see the benefits of their wealthier Elite); didn't somehow have it rigged in their benefit and Pashtunkhwah's detriment. What I am saying is that the American involvement galvanized it and are there to make sure that the institution which is a vehicle for it remains galvanized.

The Pakistani establishment however is a product of the British/Imperial enterprise, of which United States has been a long ally and byproduct of, despite the whole revolutionary drama of 1776. So while we may argue that America was not the culprit, their Capitalist agenda is; and Britain and America are merely two wings of the same flying demonic beast that operates it.


If I misinterpreted your "evening with friends" remark then I retract my statement; you have to understand in the North American context, an "evening with friends" has a different connotation. With your smirking commentary about American intrusion I wasn't sure if that was what you were referring to .

Your assessment in my understanding is a bit misdirected, maybe even misguided; you believe that Tajiks and Punjabis are somehow a benefitting populace at our expense and are in collaboration with the "600 lbs Gorilla" and since we aren't we can't get a piece of that pie. We're not a Germany, a Japan or a South Korea. However, that's not the case, Pakistan is a vestige of colonial rule; so is modern India and most current Arab States. It wasn't a "negotiation" with the 600 lbs gorilla that brought them; but rather the strategic and deliberate organization of the games pieces, not by an 800 lbs gorilla but a many headed hydra. They raise one group and pit them against the other, then when that other group is expended they pit group B against group A. That's what happened with Kurds and Arabs in Iraq. Examine Pakistan, the level of U.S. support and intervention; especially during Pakistani atrocities in Bangladesh. Pakistan was deemed an ideal ally, yet did they ever become a Japan or Germany? No, because the purpose of each serves a different role. The Agenda for the Middle East and Central Asia is different than the agenda for East Asia and Europe. Germany share important economic ties that they need to maintain their order, Japan is their outpost in the pacific and market for consuming their junk. There is no hope of a better tomorrow here, regardless of how things turn out.

So why cow tow this 7 headed Hydra posing as a Gorilla?

Baygham
02-12-2011, 03:03 PM
Well my supposition wasn't to deny that the Pakistani establishment (I won't say Punjabis, because poor rural Punjabis rarely see the benefits of their wealthier Elite); didn't somehow have it rigged in their benefit and Pashtunkhwah's detriment. What I am saying is that the American involvement galvanized it and are there to make sure that the institution which is a vehicle for it remains galvanized.

The Pakistani establishment however is a product of the British/Imperial enterprise, of which United States has been a long ally and byproduct of, despite the whole revolutionary drama of 1776. So while we may argue that America was not the culprit, their Capitalist agenda is; and Britain and America are merely two wings of the same flying demonic beast that operates it.


If I misinterpreted your "evening with friends" remark then I retract my statement; you have to understand in the North American context, an "evening with friends" has a different connotation. With your smirking commentary about American intrusion I wasn't sure if that was what you were referring to .

Your assessment in my understanding is a bit misdirected, maybe even misguided; you believe that Tajiks and Punjabis are somehow a benefitting populace at our expense and are in collaboration with the "600 lbs Gorilla" and since we aren't we can't get a piece of that pie. We're not a Germany, a Japan or a South Korea. However, that's not the case, Pakistan is a vestige of colonial rule; so is modern India and most current Arab States. It wasn't a "negotiation" with the 600 lbs gorilla that brought them; but rather the strategic and deliberate organization of the games pieces, not by an 800 lbs gorilla but a many headed hydra. They raise one group and pit them against the other, then when that other group is expended they pit group B against group A. That's what happened with Kurds and Arabs in Iraq. Examine Pakistan, the level of U.S. support and intervention; especially during Pakistani atrocities in Bangladesh. Pakistan was deemed an ideal ally, yet did they ever become a Japan or Germany? No, because the purpose of each serves a different role. The Agenda for the Middle East and Central Asia is different than the agenda for East Asia and Europe. Germany share important economic ties that they need to maintain their order, Japan is their outpost in the pacific and market for consuming their junk. There is no hope of a better tomorrow here, regardless of how things turn out.

So why cow tow this 7 headed Hydra posing as a Gorilla?

SX, it doesnt really make a difference if it is a hydra or a gorilla, if it is 7 headed or two, if it started eating us 10 years ago or a 100. It is what it is and is as real as the ozone layer, global warming, water scarcity, it is just another misfortune. We have to see it just as such. by going out every day and killing each other wont stop holes in the ozone layer or global warming. But organizing ourselves, modifying our behaviour like say better water management will get us through a whole lot better.

I am not an advocate of any imperialism including pashtoon. What we do with minorities is also atrocious (eg tur kafar, if you followed the discussion above). America will do what ever it wishes, we have to do what we need to. Right now in my humble opinion, fighting with america and beating ourselves publicaly and shouting america tyrant america tyrant is helping other stake holders and not us.

BTW your point about the commoner is right, the commoner punjabi is actually more subjugated than a KP pakhtun and yes we do have a lot of ethnic pashtoons in the establishment.

Such complex situations require dynamic solutions, on the go, Solution A today, discarded tomorrow, go to B. Static ideologies, imported from outside and forced through the barrel of a gun by other stake holders are not a solution.

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 03:16 PM
SX, it doesnt really make a difference if it is a hydra or a gorilla, if it is 7 headed or two, if it started eating us 10 years ago or a 100. It is what it is and is as real as the ozone layer, global warming, water scarcity, it is just another misfortune. We have to see it just as such. by going out every day and killing each other wont stop holes in the ozone layer or global warming. But organizing ourselves, modifying our behaviour like say better water management will get us through a whole lot better.

I am not an advocate of any imperialism including pashtoon. What we do with minorities is also atrocious (eg tur kafar, if you followed the discussion above). America will do what ever it wishes, we have to do what we need to. Right now in my humble opinion, fighting with america and beating ourselves publicaly and shouting america tyrant america tyrant is helping other stake holders and not us.

BTW your point about the commoner is right, the commoner punjabi is actually more subjugated than a KP pakhtun and yes we do have a lot of ethnic pashtoons in the establishment.

Such complex situations require dynamic solutions, on the go, Solution A today, discarded tomorrow, go to B. Static ideologies, imported from outside and forced through the barrel of a gun by other stake holders are not a solution.


Your assessment of why and what and how it's doing things is wrong; it's not benefitting one state or another, it's merely using everyone as pawns. Once it's through with a pawn it just discards it and moves on to the next. Iraq is a perfect example. These are classical divide and rule tactics.

The analogy of global warming and ozone layer depletion is as paradoxical as it is inaccurate. Paradoxical because it's that institution of industrial capitalist enterprise which engendered the situation and inaccurate in the sense that such realities are only consequential if we allow them to be. Letting them dominate you and exploit you is not the solution for exploitation by their stooges.

Iraq in the 70's and 80's as a mantle of the Modern Middle East; then it went to pieces and it's in a fragmented condition. The nation of Iraq itself was carved out by the British, and in turn this fragmentation As for fighting with America, it's not America we are fighting, America is merely vessel; what we're fighting is bigger than the smokescreen of Nation-States; it's that nation state thinking that bogs us down and keeps us diverted from core matters and addressing problems. You and I agree on one thing that we must do what we need to do; but what we disagree on is what it is we need to do. We don't need to cow tow to this Gorilla/Hydra/Demon; we need to liberate ourselves from it. I don't see how your plan will liberate, it will only maintain our state of constant subservience. and that is why I address it as a colonized mentality.

Baygham
02-12-2011, 03:40 PM
Your assessment of why and what and how it's doing things is wrong; it's not benefitting one state or another, it's merely using everyone as pawns. Once it's through with a pawn it just discards it and moves on to the next. Iraq is a perfect example. These are classical divide and rule tactics.

The analogy of global warming and ozone layer depletion is as paradoxical as it is inaccurate. Paradoxical because it's that institution of industrial capitalist enterprise which engendered the situation and inaccurate in the sense that such realities are only consequential if we allow them to be. Letting them dominate you and exploit you is not the solution for exploitation by their stooges.

Iraq in the 70's and 80's as a mantle of the Modern Middle East; then it went to pieces and it's in a fragmented condition. The nation of Iraq itself was carved out by the British, and in turn this fragmentation As for fighting with America, it's not America we are fighting, America is merely vessel; what we're fighting is bigger than the smokescreen of Nation-States; it's that nation state thinking that bogs us down and keeps us diverted from core matters and addressing problems. You and I agree on one thing that we must do what we need to do; but what we disagree on is what it is we need to do. We don't need to cow tow to this Gorilla/Hydra/Demon; we need to liberate ourselves from it. I don't see how your plan will liberate, it will only maintain our state of constant subservience. and that is why I address it as a colonized mentality.

Its easy to condemn from the comforts of western luxury, I do it all the time. Was Gandhi's non voilent movement a product of colonized mentality was bacha khan a coward. Is it an eternal doctrine, should the Jews have adopted it in Germany and in Isreal. The answer is no.

To you in New York or London, going after the head of the hydra may be feasible, you do so, but for the millions dying sandwiched between a rock and a hard place, it is not feasible. Sometimes you amputate a limb to spare the whole. Sometimes the whole takes a chance and keeps a limb. Churchill pulled the trigger or Bush did or they did it with Allahs consent or without Allah, is irrelevant. We should adopt the most appropriate strategy for the right time and space. What that may be will change moment to moment. Shouting for arabian honor, with bare feet and sunken bellies is just plain foolish, like a famous pashtoon who years ago, wrapped his patoo (a warm wrap around/ a shawl) and put it in the nozzle of a British cannon, well you know what happened to him. Advocating we all do the same will only prolong the raj and its local cronies. Sometimes Gandhi making salt in defiance, on a desolate beach, is mush more powerful.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 04:31 PM
Its easy to condemn from the comforts of western luxury, I do it all the time. Was Gandhi's non voilent movement a product of colonized mentality was bacha khan a coward. Is it an eternal doctrine, should the Jews have adopted it in Germany and in Isreal. The answer is no.

To you in New York or London, going after the head of the hydra may be feasible, you do so, but for the millions dying sandwiched between a rock and a hard place, it is not feasible. Sometimes you amputate a limb to spare the whole. Sometimes the whole takes a chance and keeps a limb. Churchill pulled the trigger or Bush did or they did it with Allahs consent or without Allah, is irrelevant. We should adopt the most appropriate strategy for the right time and space. What that may be will change moment to moment. Shouting for arabian honor, with bare feet and sunken bellies is just plain foolish, like a famous pashtoon who years ago, wrapped his patoo (a warm wrap around/ a shawl) and put it in the nozzle of a British cannon, well you know what happened to him. Advocating we all do the same will only prolong the raj and its local cronies. Sometimes Gandhi making salt in defiance, on a desolate beach, is mush more powerful.

Its much more complex and the history of Indian revolution from british rule requires more thought, because Ghandi's movement was going on side by side with Muhammad Jauhaar's militant movement. This is very similar to how Malcom X's movement was going on side by side with Martin Luther King's movement. Back in engineering school I had a good, but poor friend from Detroit that grew up near where Ben Carson grew up. His name was John and I asked John why the establishment, like Spike Lee notes in his timeless classic on Malcolm X, wants him and his people to forget Malcom X. John avoids politics, but remains ever astute and said, "BA, they want their docile n@#$#Q@rs." He went on to note that informed blacks place a lot of emphasis on how Malcom's threats of violent revolution played a major role in the directors of society (i.e. the elites) realizing that they had to relent in order to maintain stability and save face about claiming America was the pluralistic society that it claims. Moreover, Bacha Khan's movement was going along side by side with Taurangzai and Faqir e Ipi's militant revolts as well as Mullah Powindah's revolt.

Finally I give you quote from Che Guevara:

"A revolution without guns? It will never work."

faye
02-12-2011, 05:31 PM
astute hackers might be better armory, in this day and age.

Alchemist
02-12-2011, 05:34 PM
Its much more complex and the history of Indian revolution from british rule requires more thought, because Ghandi's movement was going on side by side with Muhammad Jauhaar's militant movement. This is very similar to how Malcom X's movement was going on side by side with Martin Luther King's movement. Back in engineering school I had a good, but poor friend from Detroit that grew up near where Ben Carson grew up. His name was John and I asked John why the establishment, like Spike Lee notes in his timeless classic on Malcolm X, wants him and his people to forget Malcom X. John avoids politics, but remains ever astute and said, "BA, they want their docile n@#$#Q@rs." He went on to note that informed blacks place a lot of emphasis on how Malcom's threats of violent revolution played a major role in the directors of society (i.e. the elites) realizing that they had to relent in order to maintain stability and save face about claiming America was the pluralistic society that it claims. Moreover, Bacha Khan's movement was going along side by side with Taurangzai and Faqir e Ipi's militant revolts as well as Mullah Powindah's revolt.

Finally I give you quote from Che Guevara:

"A revolution without guns? It will never work."

The recent Egyptian revolution was by means a "peaceful" one.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 05:40 PM
The recent Egyptian revolution was by means a "peaceful" one.

'Tis not complete. the apex of power rests in Omar Suleiman and Tantawai's hands now. Mubarak was 80 or so and likely to croack soon enough. Thanks to Assange, we now know that Suleiman was the preferred choice for imperial/israeli interests in terms of a transition. For the revolution to complete itself the people must truly erect a government that reflects the will of the people. Otherwise, what has happened is similar to the revolt that I read about recently where Ayuub Khan across the border from us was overthrown via a "revolution" only to be replaced with Zul Fikaar Bhutto or more recently, Musharraf with Zardari.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

- Mullah Thomas Jeffersonzai Baba

BarakzaiAbdali
02-12-2011, 05:50 PM
The recent Egyptian revolution was by means a "peaceful" one.

That being said, the people deserve out our sympathies. However, as an American I shall do exactly as John Quincy Adams told us to do and:

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
John Quincy Adams

Therefore, I shall stake a consistent stance on this and note that I wish the Egyptians well and my prayers are with them, but as an American, I urge that not a single dollar nor a single American life ought to be spent to secure Egypt's freedom. To balance, this not a single dollar or life ough to go towards their military regime or ought to have gone there in the first place. The Egyptians have to earn the right of a nation state to exist and flourish and they appear to be doing that right now. We have the right to generally stay silent and out of their affairs.

As a Muslim American the best thing I can do for my people around the world is encourage noninterventionalism. This allows an intellectual reconciliation of my Islamic mindset and the oath I took as an American doctor to save and not destroy life; as I yearn for my fellow religion men and women to flourish but I also yearn to protect the lives and liberties of Americans here.

This reconciliation is found in the ayaahs that urge Muslims to sue for peace should the aggressor (in this case the US and the Western imperial powers) sue for peace. These ayaahs meet John Quincy Adam's and Washington's exhortations at a healthy middle ground. If, as an American Muslim I can help this nation sue for peace than a balance can be reached between these adopted people and the traditional Muslim lands.

More likely the cycle of empire shall continue as empires have risen and fallen before this one. So my ideals are tempered with pragmatism.

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 08:34 PM
Its easy to condemn from the comforts of western luxury, I do it all the time. Was Gandhi's non voilent movement a product of colonized mentality was bacha khan a coward. Is it an eternal doctrine, should the Jews have adopted it in Germany and in Isreal. The answer is no.

To you in New York or London, going after the head of the hydra may be feasible, you do so, but for the millions dying sandwiched between a rock and a hard place, it is not feasible. Sometimes you amputate a limb to spare the whole. Sometimes the whole takes a chance and keeps a limb. Churchill pulled the trigger or Bush did or they did it with Allahs consent or without Allah, is irrelevant. We should adopt the most appropriate strategy for the right time and space. What that may be will change moment to moment. Shouting for arabian honor, with bare feet and sunken bellies is just plain foolish, like a famous pashtoon who years ago, wrapped his patoo (a warm wrap around/ a shawl) and put it in the nozzle of a British cannon, well you know what happened to him. Advocating we all do the same will only prolong the raj and its local cronies. Sometimes Gandhi making salt in defiance, on a desolate beach, is mush more powerful.


The response you're giving is called Circumstantial Ad-Hominem. It's true that I was born and raised in the U.S, but that's not the essence of our discussion. But don't you see? Living in the so called "Western Luxury" is exactly what makes our position all the more credible. We have an intimate familiarity with it's workings, it's faults, it's merits it's vulnerabilities. We're not beguiled by the illusion of this mountain of Gold with streets lined with pearls as many "over there" are lead to believe (I'm making a hyperbole on purpose by the way). We know what makes the culture what it is and understand what it represents and the cost of subscribing to it's pathology of pacification and intoxication. You seem to have some misgivings about my position;my ambitions are not local,they're not about Arabian Honor, Pashtun Honor, Tajik Honor, Ferangi Honor or any ready-made rhetoric being used here. I'm not fighting the West, nor am I defending the East. I'm up against a georaphically amorphous institution,although historically rooted in Western society, is not restrained to it, so therefore my objectives are pertinent anywhere relevant. It's not the nation state or geographically defined culture that we're up against but the institution that constructs the idea of nation states. For me the stakes are global and therefore not about battling the West, but freeing the world from the condition this technoindustrial institution from it's clutches. You see a mere gorilla, I see a leviathan, what differs here is what we're doing or intending on doing about it. What I seek is not for a certain group of people,but for mankind and laugh if you want, animal kind too and most of all my beloved planet Earth. So long as we remain compliant the cycle continues,it wont matter if it's the Raj and his cronies, they're replaceable; the dominion of this institution is my concern. The raj and the cronies are it's manifestations, nothing more.

Actually yes Gandhi's movement was a product of the colonized mentality and to a certain degree Bacha Khan was not as brave as he's made out to be, although I wouldn't call him a coward as much as mislead. Nothing a colonizer wants than easy to manage subjects, a passive entity is more agreeable than a nonpassive one, and sitting around holding signs alone did not remove the British from India. The devastations of World War II did, the idea of managing an international colony was no longer feasible for the British, none of the protests in the world had dented the British, but the banking of British level pounds in the hands of their brown skinned subjects was too much for the Queen's Court to take, after all there were at that time nearly 500,000,000 Hindustanis sahibs, and 30,000,000 Brits, it's better to just keep sahibs as workers, constantly leaping for the carrot, whether as migrants or distance market dependents in their over run lands; also let's prop one group against the other to exacerbate animosities so they could make it so their subjects never really become self sufficient. The Stage was set and Britain got out scot free, and now India is a prized destination for sex tourists, Pakistan a Mujra dance capital of the world, and Bangladesh is about to be flooded into the Bay. Pakhtoons/Afghanistan/Pakhtunkhwah is somehow stuck being dragged down in the ensuing muck. Thanks Gandhi?

British orientalists like William Muir derived terms like/similar to "Arabian Honor" in reference to Islaam, such arguments are exactly the divide and rule schemes being used used against us. However even with Al-Qaeda, Salafist Mujahideen and Medeival Islaamic history; I have never seen or heard of an Arab even during the Ummayad dynasty claiming an Afghan area or territory as the vestige and prize exclusively of the Arabs; and they were known for their ethnocentrism, the fact is regardless of what you feel about Islaam as being some trojan horse of Arabian conquest, a few thousand Arabs could not overrun a massive Empire of Iran without the help of the people; there was no Arabian honor here, just Justice of Islaam, it never would have succeeded otherwise. The British used to call Pershawar the "Queen's Dominion" and such. We've been suffering for years due to their colonial scheme, no scheme of Arabian Honor has ever harmed so much as this. My point being this is all a red herring, one which only seeks us to fight amongst ourselves with Arabs and Punjabis, pitting one group against another, and diverting us from our real enemies, and paying tribute to their ambitions. It's time we wake up.

Toramana
02-12-2011, 08:55 PM
Actually yes Gandhi's movement was a product of the colonized mentality and to a certain degree Bacha Khan was not as brave as he's made out to be, although I wouldn't call him a coward as much as mislead. Nothing a colonizer wants than easy to manage subjects, a passive entity is more agreeable than a nonpassive one, and sitting around holding signs alone did not remove the British from India. The devastations of World War II did, the idea of managing an international colony was no longer feasible for the British, none of the protests in the world had dented the British, but the banking of British level pounds in the hands of their brown skinned subjects was too much for the Queen's Court to take, after all there were at that time nearly 500,000,000 Hindustanis sahibs, and 30,000,000 Brits, it's better to just keep sahibs as workers, constantly leaping for the carrot, whether as migrants or distance market dependents in their over run lands; also let's prop one group against the other to exacerbate animosities so they could make it so their subjects never really become self sufficient. The Stage was set and Britain got out scot free, and now India is a prized destination for sex tourists, Pakistan a Mujra dance capital of the world, and Bangladesh is about to be flooded into the Bay. Pakhtoons/Afghanistan/Pakhtunkhwah is somehow stuck being dragged down in the ensuing muck. Thanks Gandhi?

British orientalists like William Muir derived terms like/similar to "Arabian Honor" in reference to Islaam, such arguments are exactly the divide and rule schemes being used used against us. However even with Al-Qaeda, Salafist Mujahideen and Medeival Islaamic history; I have never seen or heard of an Arab even during the Ummayad dynasty claiming an Afghan area or territory as the vestige and prize exclusively of the Arabs; and they were known for their ethnocentrism, the fact is regardless of what you feel about Islaam as being some trojan horse of Arabian conquest, a few thousand Arabs could not overrun a massive Empire of Iran without the help of the people; there was no Arabian honor here, just Justice of Islaam, it never would have succeeded otherwise. The British used to call Pershawar the "Queen's Dominion" and such. We've been suffering for years due to their colonial scheme, no scheme of Arabian Honor has ever harmed so much as this. My point being this is all a red herring, one which only seeks us to fight amongst ourselves with Arabs and Punjabis, pitting one group against another, and diverting us from our real enemies, and paying tribute to their ambitions. It's time we wake up.

Go on bastadising a whole branch (and highest form) of human knowledge aimed at uncovering the truth for that abhorent Camel-agenda i.e., the defence and propomotion of desert interests ...yet call others ethnocenterists...No one is as radically a Pashtun nationalist here as you are a rabbies-bitten Arab chauvinist....Bravo...


An then the claims to be a mutazilaid...an intellectually sub-rated person that without any qualms can prostitute disciplines like Ecology and logic to promote Arabism can be anything but a mutazilaid...

Alchemist
02-12-2011, 10:03 PM
That being said, the people deserve out our sympathies. However, as an American I shall do exactly as John Quincy Adams told us to do and:

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
John Quincy Adams

Therefore, I shall stake a consistent stance on this and note that I wish the Egyptians well and my prayers are with them, but as an American, I urge that not a single dollar nor a single American life ought to be spent to secure Egypt's freedom. To balance, this not a single dollar or life ough to go towards their military regime or ought to have gone there in the first place. The Egyptians have to earn the right of a nation state to exist and flourish and they appear to be doing that right now. We have the right to generally stay silent and out of their affairs.

As a Muslim American the best thing I can do for my people around the world is encourage noninterventionalism. This allows an intellectual reconciliation of my Islamic mindset and the oath I took as an American doctor to save and not destroy life; as I yearn for my fellow religion men and women to flourish but I also yearn to protect the lives and liberties of Americans here.

This reconciliation is found in the ayaahs that urge Muslims to sue for peace should the aggressor (in this case the US and the Western imperial powers) sue for peace. These ayaahs meet John Quincy Adam's and Washington's exhortations at a healthy middle ground. If, as an American Muslim I can help this nation sue for peace than a balance can be reached between these adopted people and the traditional Muslim lands.

More likely the cycle of empire shall continue as empires have risen and fallen before this one. So my ideals are tempered with pragmatism.


Do you foresee a revolution in America?

ScimitarXEdge
02-12-2011, 10:32 PM
Go on bastadising a whole branch (and highest form) of human knowledge aimed at uncovering the truth for that abhorent Camel-agenda i.e., the defence and propomotion of desert interests ...yet call others ethnocenterists...No one is as radically a Pashtun nationalist here as you are a rabbies-bitten Arab chauvinist....Bravo...


An then the claims to be a mutazilaid...an intellectually sub-rated person that without any qualms can prostitute disciplines like Ecology and logic to promote Arabism can be anything but a mutazilaid...


How can I be an Arab chauvinist when everything I am speaking against ethnic nationalism?

the problem here isn't that I prostitute logic; the problem is you you lack logic in how you address life and as a result are so hell bent on projecting this hallucination of arabism derived orientalist imperialist brainwashing, because you can't bear to think you're under ferangi mind control. You suffer some inferiority complex that's rubbed off from Persian Nationalist circles; Pashtuns have historically never been in conflict with Arabs. Stop diverting focus from the real enemy, your Ferangi slave masters.

I dare you to actually produce one explicit piece of evidence that I'm as you claim.

Toramana
02-12-2011, 11:07 PM
How can I be an Arab chauvinist when everything I am speaking against ethnic nationalism?

the problem here isn't that I prostitute logic; the problem is you you lack logic in how you address life and as a result are so hell bent on projecting this hallucination of arabism derived orientalist imperialist brainwashing, because you can't bear to think you're under ferangi mind control. You suffer some inferiority complex that's rubbed off from Persian Nationalist circles; Pashtuns have historically never been in conflict with Arabs. Stop diverting focus from the real enemy, your Ferangi slave masters.

I dare you to actually produce one explicit piece of evidence that I'm as you claim.

I have tested your mantle in many thread...and have witnessed how you prostitute terms, terminologies (e.g. logical fallacies) to win an argument under the illusion that other people are ignorant and don't understand these things ...

Desert interests might be overwhelming you but it is dishomnest as well as counter produtive to *******ise a whole disciplines of knowledge of which you don't have even superficial understanding to force in your point...

First complete your college diploma and then try to understand the things deeply on the basis of which you pretend to make arguments....and then argue...

ScimitarXEdge
02-13-2011, 09:38 AM
I have tested your mantle in many thread...and have witnessed how you prostitute terms, terminologies (e.g. logical fallacies) to win an argument under the illusion that other people are ignorant and don't understand these things ...

Desert interests might be overwhelming you but it is dishomnest as well as counter produtive to *******ise a whole disciplines of knowledge of which you don't have even superficial understanding to force in your point...

First complete your college diploma and then try to understand the things deeply on the basis of which you pretend to make arguments....and then argue...


you've tested my mantle? You've peddled typical logical fallacies, reading your responses was like reading Joseph Goebbels propaganda, chalk full of false appeals and irrelevancies, persistent emotionalism.

Again I ask you how can I be serving any ethnicity's interests when everything I've written on this forum demonstratively indicates that I am against ethnic nationalism?

You make these "suggestions" without basis, demonstrate exactly and clearly where I serve ANY ethnic nationalist purposes, or your Imperialist concocted notion of "Desert Interests" which are spoken by the ilk of your standard Orientalist.

if you're so sure of your educational capacity and have completed a college degree, you can do this easily. Please ...I am waiting

It's time people call you on your accusations.

BarakzaiAbdali
02-13-2011, 12:59 PM
Redirect here if you so desire:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/arab-imperialism-occupation-13535/#post345083 (http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/arab-imperialism-occupation-13535/#post345083)

Besides my goal is to have the kakargirl thread compete with the long lasting Luffy thread so that a Qandharaay appreciation thread reigns supreme. Currently, the Toramana thread appears to be shifting the paradigm in favor of Swat:tongue:.