View Full Version : lil something about the real terrorists


Talal
05-08-2010, 10:02 PM
Our member Ozymandas or however you spell it, seems to be under the impression that US is fighting for a "just" cause and that muslims are hardwired to be radicals with no sense of what universal "rights" and "freedom" mean.

Below are the quotes from the people who run what is known to be the biggest superpower in the world..My argument was simple, terrorists are ****, taliban are ****, but even worse than this **** are the people who empowered them..US and the west whines about Radicals todays and uses that as an excuse to wage war on muslim countries but they forget that US is the very country that empowered these terrorists by supporting the same extremist ideas, they so proudly make the argument that we have nothing "specific" against muslims..Read these quotes and judge for yourself

I posted them before in another thread, but i wanted all members to see this


It's really difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim . . . Our enemy is the majority of the people who live in what we think of as the large Arab nations, plus certain other groups. Our enemy is concentrated in Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Syria, plus the Palestinians are part of it." - Ralph Peters, CIA deputy chief of staff for intelligence

"If they turn on the radars we're going to blow up their damn SAMs (surface-to-air missiles). They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need." - U.S. Brig. General William Looney (Interview Washington Post, August 30, 1999)

Roosevelt received him that very evening at the White House. Their discussion focused on the Middle East. Trying to ally Halifax's apprehennsion and irritation, Roosevelt showed the ambassador a rough sketch he had made of the Middle East. Persian oil, he told the ambassador, is yours. We share the oil of Iraq and Kuwait. As for Saudi Arabian oil, it is ours. Daniel Yergin - The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power - New York:Simon and Schuster, 1991,401
[B]"I will never apologize for the United States of America. I don't care what the facts are." After the US destroyer Vincennes in Iranian territorial waters, shoots down an Iranian commercial flight (Iran Air 654) in Iranian airspace killing all 286 passengers. - George Bush is quoted in the magazine, Newsweek, 1985


"There was never a plan to leave Iraq because there is no intention to leave Iraq. We (the Americans) are currently building 14 bases there. **** Cheney can't imagine giving up that oil. The military can't imagine giving up those bases. That's why they can't come up with a plan to leave." - Chalmers Johnson, author of Sorrows of Empire, in LA Weekly, July 6 2004



"I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes." - Winston Churchill, 19 February, 1920, before the start of the Arab uprising

^ The great American Hero

Pakhtunzai
05-09-2010, 04:00 AM
Of course they are in fact the true terrorists of this world, having made the "taliban" and the mullahs of UK and also Osama Bin Laden..all just an excuse to gain even more power and especially that oil in the Arab peninsula, apparantly a lot of gas came out of Afghanistan recently and they are staying put because of that? Can anyone elaborate?

There is so much proof out there that they are the true terrorists but the media influence is so strong that the whole world is sucked in with their spin of lies.

afghan
05-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Our member Ozymandas or however you spell it, seems to be under the impression that US is fighting for a "just" cause and that muslims are hardwired to be radicals with no sense of what universal "rights" and "freedom" mean.

Below are the quotes from the people who run what is known to be the biggest superpower in the world..My argument was simple, terrorists are ****, taliban are ****, but even worse than this **** are the people who empowered them..US and the west whines about Radicals todays and uses that as an excuse to wage war on muslim countries but they forget that US is the very country that empowered these terrorists by supporting the same extremist ideas, they so proudly make the argument that we have nothing "specific" against muslims..Read these quotes and judge for yourself


I posted them before in another thread, but i wanted all members to see this





^ The great American Hero


the US and the west never been involved directly supporting these terrorists. it was the pakistan harboring the terrorists.

imb706
05-09-2010, 12:32 PM
Actually, neither side is ¨just¨ or ¨right.¨ One side is fighting for oil and control, the other is fighting for instilling religious tyranny, and well, oil.

Talal
05-09-2010, 02:52 PM
the US and the west never been involved directly supporting these terrorists. it was the pakistan harboring the terrorists.

Pakistan is fighting them and we got they're body count to prove that :)

Talal
05-09-2010, 02:53 PM
Actually, neither side is ¨just¨ or ¨right.¨ One side is fighting for oil and control, the other is fighting for instilling religious tyranny, and well, oil.

That is more or less true right now, but one is the cause of the other

imb706
05-09-2010, 03:23 PM
Well I certainly support the fight against terrorism and religious tyrants, I just think the way we go about it is very flawed.

Talal
05-09-2010, 05:15 PM
But you refuse to acknowledge that it is your own doing and this very mess is your own creation, you refuse to work with the muslims you want them to wrok for ya. And above all people like Bush WILL continue to get elected, so you see its not us you should be fighting against

afghan
05-09-2010, 07:40 PM
^What about Mujahadeen?
the so called jihadis were also sposored through pakistan.

afghan
05-09-2010, 07:42 PM
Pakistan is fighting them and we got they're body count to prove that :)
their leadership is still enjoying the paaki support, you need to count the innocent bodies.

Talal
05-09-2010, 08:32 PM
their leadership is still enjoying the paaki support, you need to count the innocent bodies.

Refer to the rules thread to learn some manners


[Quote]- Let us also, for a moment, focus our attention on the word "Porkistan" (or "na-Pakistan"), which PF moderators and many PF members find immature and silly. To some members here and to Pakistanis, it is insulting as well. You can make a perfectly good and legitimate argument and statement against Pakistan without calling it "Porkistan." Thus, while we encourage and even urge you to hold and participate in discussions on all possible topics, we do not tolerate nor support insulting and disrespectful remarks towards/against anyone, especially without any facts or sources; we consider such lack of evidence to be inarticulate and irate.


And
Baitullah -> DEAD
Hakeemullah -> DEAD ( the new video is unconfirmed )
Over 2000 TTP taliban -> DEAD ( courtesy your friendly army, The Pakistan Army )
The other Insurgents -> Future -> Will soon be DEAD

source: Pakistan's ongoing war on terror

afghan
05-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Refer to the rules thread to learn some manners

[QUOTE]


And
Baitullah -> DEAD
Hakeemullah -> DEAD ( the new video is unconfirmed )
Over 2000 TTP taliban -> DEAD ( courtesy your friendly army, The Pakistan Army )
The other Insurgents -> Future -> Will soon be DEAD

source: Pakistan's ongoing war on terror
thanx for teaching the manners, you guys are good in it. thanx to US drones most of the leadership is dead.

ozymandias
05-09-2010, 10:44 PM
Our member Ozymandas or however you spell it, seems to be under the impression that US is fighting for a "just" cause and that muslims are hardwired to be radicals with no sense of what universal "rights" and "freedom" mean.



You are already off on the wrong foot here. If you cannot even honestly portray my stance and opinions, I don't see how we can hold a reasonable conversation.

I have never stated that the US is fighting a just war, nor have I ever lumped all Muslims into one group, nor have I (or would I) claim that any group of people is hardwired and not able to be educated.

I have, however, pointed out that many people *HERE* have shown clearly that they do not understand the concepts of universal human rights. I have lost count of the number of posters that believed that their non-existent right not to be offended somehow trumps the universal human right to free speech.



Below are the quotes from the people who run what is known to be the biggest superpower in the world..My argument was simple, terrorists are ****, taliban are ****, but even worse than this **** are the people who empowered them..US and the west whines about Radicals todays and uses that as an excuse to wage war on muslim countries but they forget that US is the very country that empowered these terrorists by supporting the same extremist ideas, they so proudly make the argument that we have nothing "specific" against muslims..Read these quotes and judge for yourself

I posted them before in another thread, but i wanted all members to see this


I find it interesting what quotes you selected... and how false many of them are. It's amazing what can be hidden with those three little dots, and the selective quoting of someone.

Here is what Ralph Peters *ACTUALLY* said, in context:


It's really difficult to exactly delineate who our enemies are, but they number in millions. They're Arab and Muslim, but not every Arab is among them, and most Muslims are not.

SNIP -- *LOT* of text is missing. Several pages, actually, where he discusses why these terms are a poor choice. He makes statements like:

I am having a difficult time coming up with a pithy term for our enemy. It's hard. It isn't really greater Arabia. It certainly isn't Islam.

I am leaving out another large chunk of text where he states this:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to use the partly-fallacious term "Arab culture", accepting that not all Arab culture is our enemy and not all Arabs are among our enemies.
Our enemy holds to a traditional belief, a traditional culture. Islam is a core piece of that, but it isn't the whole thing, and not everyone who believes in Islam is part of the enemy.


And now, we finally get to the second half of the Ralph Peters quote:

Our enemy is the majority of the people who live in what we think of as the large Arab nations, plus certain other groups. Our enemy is concentrated in Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Syria, plus the Palestinians are part of it. There are lesser concentrations of our enemy in Morocco, Algeria, Yemen, Oman and (non-Arab) Pakistan.


You can find the whole paper, including these select, and grossly unrepresentative quotes at any of the following links:
http://www.denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/09/Whoisourenemy.shtml
http://www.jrwhipple.com/war/caseforwar.html
Or, go straight to the horses mouth and look for the article on it's original source : http://www.carlisle.army.mil/

Let's take a cursory look at some of these other quotes, and see if they are of the same twisted caliber:
Chalmers Johnson -- a liberal professor of politics at a California College, known for is anti-republican comentary. While this quote has been paired with other people in charge of the US military strategy is fairly clear -- it is an effort to imply that this person is another high ranking politician or decision maker, and is announcing some 'fact' about the politics that lead the decision making, but instead, he is someone not involved with the decision making, and has no additional information about the situation at hand than the average world citizen. This quote is not some damning piece of evidence that the US made war decisions based on Cheney's drive for oil, but a scathing indictment and an accusation that the government did just that. He may be correct -- but it looks to me that the pairing of a random professor from a notoriously liberal college, making anti-MidEast conflict commentary with the out-of context quote from a CIA Deputy of Staff, a high ranking General, the former President, and Churchill is a simple smear tactic.

Let's continue, shall we?

What *ELSE* did Churchhill say that you are leaving out? Let's just post the whole quote, including the parts you left out:


I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.



Quite a different meaning, when you find out he is discussing tear gas, and laughing gas, and not mustard gas, or nerve gas, isn't it?

I would say that the use of non-lethal force is vastly superior to lethal force.

Please, if you wish to continue this discussion, please be a little more intellectually honest, and upfront. Please do not deliberately misrepresent what I say, or what my stances are, and please refrain from deliberately misquoting people to make your point.

As a final note -- I have repeatedly stated that I support your rights to defend yourselves from a military invasion, and that I support a timely, organized withdrawal of US forces from the Middle East. I have made it very clear that the military began their actions based on false information, and their current occupation is unfounded. Where the facts that originally lead to the military action true -- I might defend the current occupation, but as additional information came to light, it became clear that the military was mobilizing unjustly.






^ The great American Hero

Oh, by the way? Churchill was British, not American.

ozymandias
05-09-2010, 10:51 PM
Please note -- I am not defending any of those quotes *AS WRITTEN*, I am simply pointing out the intellectual dishonesty preformed when these quotes were hand crafted, and hand selected to represent something other than what they actually do.

I enjoy discussions and educating while being educated, but both sides need to make an effort to be honest and respectful, things that I found this selection of quotes to fall far short of.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-10-2010, 05:33 AM
Refer to the rules thread to learn some manners

[QUOTE]


And
Baitullah -> DEAD
Hakeemullah -> DEAD ( the new video is unconfirmed )
Over 2000 TTP taliban -> DEAD ( courtesy your friendly army, The Pakistan Army )
The other Insurgents -> Future -> Will soon be DEAD

source: Pakistan's ongoing war on terror

May I ask, what about Qari Misbahudeen, Turkistan Bhittani and Baz Mohammand,Mullah nazeer and Gul Badahur are they going to be next or will they continue to be your Government loyalists?

ozymandias
05-10-2010, 01:20 PM
Ozymandias.

I think what you are missing out is the psychology. When your mom is raped, or dad is killed. Its hard to take things to calmly.

No disrespect, but I find your reply terrifying.

I am not saying you need to stay calm. By all means, be angry. Get upset.

Something important to note, that I think all children need to learn, is that anger does not need to result in violence. It is not only possible to be angry, and not resort to physical attacks -- but that is how civilization is built. If you resort to violence every time you get angry, you are acting childish, and uncivilized.

So your father got killed. That's terrible -- but how does violence solve that problem? Even assuming you attack the guilty man, and not an innocent man (remember, you are emotional, not acting rational, and just decided to take the system of justice into your own hands) how do you think that man's sons are going to react? Not only did you just attack their father, but *YOU* just advocated violence in response to emotional stimulus. This is a downward spiral and is barbaric.

Better to remove the rash actions, halt the physical attacks, and respond with a civilized system of justice.

ozymandias
05-12-2010, 05:50 PM
Talal, any comments?

ozymandias
05-13-2010, 01:22 PM
I'm going to guess Talal has nothing to say in response to my uncovering his biased and dishonest collection of quotes. I am going to stop watching this thread for replies -- PM me if anyone wants to pick this thread up again.

*Mahzala*
05-13-2010, 01:46 PM
Talal has left this forum due to personal committments. So you wont get a reply anytime soon.