View Full Version : Freedom Of Speech Is Not Negotiable! - Bill Maher


imb706
05-07-2010, 03:20 AM
Not the biggest fan of Maher, but heś spot on here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmpM-b-IsYY

Levanaye Zalmaye
05-07-2010, 05:27 AM
Except freedom of speech is limited in Europe as far as accepting the given history of the Holocaust is concerned. Again, I'm not a Holocaust-denier but I am concerned that this victim-card is played way too often and way too aggressively.

Maher is right, by the way. Muslims are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy toooooooo sensitive when it comes to their religious beliefs. They become irrational when their faith is challenged and when that happens, expect the kitchen sink.

Moreover, Maher hits the nail on the head when he talks about how Christianity, in the Dark Ages, was how exactly Islam is right now. Islam DESPERATELY needs its own reformation. Unfortunately, that's impossible given how any deviation from the Quran and Sunnah, as dictated and explained by the Medieval scholars, is Bid'ah.

imb706
05-07-2010, 05:35 AM
Reformation? But the Protestant Reformation made Christianity more violent and backwards. Maybe you mean it needs some liberalization and secularization.

Levanaye Zalmaye
05-07-2010, 06:02 AM
Reformation? But the Protestant Reformation made Christianity more violent and backwards. Maybe you mean it needs some liberalization and secularization.

The entire eras of the Reformation (16th century), Renaissance (14th-16th centuries), Enlightenment (17th century), Age of Reason, etc helped shape the modern 'West' economically, politically, religiously, culturally, militarily, etc..

The Eastern civilizations, particularly the Islamic civilizations, never had anything equal to these movements and hence their present condition and their 'Medieval' state of mind. That's why most Muslims cannot even begin to understand European liberal democratic values (which includes the concept of freedom of speech). There's a huge black intellectual hole as far as Muslim academia is concerned. The fact that Muslim contribution to science has been next to nothing since the 15th century speaks volumes in itself. Nothing more needs to be said.

What strikes me most about the Reformation was that set values and what was said to be God-given authority were openly challenged and protested against. The Reformation, by and large, liberated millions of people in the end.

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 06:21 AM
Lewanai, if you are going to worship Europeans, at have the decency to study their history properly. So you can avoid making a fool of yourself

The reformation created a more volatile situation. And more violence and more war was the outcome of reformation.

Enlightenment was an alternative of the same kind of resistence against catholicism. Some reformed christianity, others became disbelievers.

Both reformation and enlightenment were manifestation of rebellion against repressive state religion.

imb706
05-07-2010, 06:21 AM
The entire eras of the Reformation (16th century), Renaissance (14th-16th centuries), Enlightenment (17th century), Age of Reason, etc helped shape the modern 'West' economically, politically, religiously, culturally, militarily, etc..

The Eastern civilizations, particularly the Islamic civilizations, never had anything equal to these movements and hence their present condition and their 'Medieval' state of mind. That's why most Muslims cannot even begin to understand European liberal democratic values (which includes the concept of freedom of speech). There's a huge black intellectual hole as far as Muslim academia is concerned. The fact that Muslim contribution to science has been next to nothing since the 15th century speaks volumes in itself. Nothing more needs to be said.

What strikes me most about the Reformation was that set values and what was said to be God-given authority were openly challenged and protested against. The Reformation, by and large, liberated millions of people in the end.Um...no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reformation (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UaGVfUmVmb3J tYXRpb24mcXVvdDs%3D&b=5)

¨The Protestant Reformation was the European Christian (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9DaHJpc3RpYW4 mcXVvdDs%3D&b=5) reform movement (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9SZWZvcm1fbW9 2ZW1lbnQmcXVvdDs%3D&b=5) that established Protestantism (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9Qcm90ZXN0YW5 0aXNtJnF1b3Q7&b=5) as a constituent branch of contemporary Christianity (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9DaHJpc3RpYW5 pdHkmcXVvdDs%3D&b=5). It began in 1517 when Martin Luther (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9NYXJ0aW5fTHV 0aGVyJnF1b3Q7&b=5) published The Ninety-Five Theses (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UaGVfTmluZXR 5LUZpdmVfVGhlc2VzJnF1b3Q7&b=5), and concluded in 1648 with the Treaty of Westphalia (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UcmVhdHlfb2Z fV2VzdHBoYWxpYSZxdW90Ow%3D%3D&b=5) that ended one hundred and thirty-one years of consecutive European religious wars (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9FdXJvcGVhbl9 3YXJzX29mX3JlbGlnaW9uJnF1b3Q7&b=5).[1] (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UaGVfUmVmb3J tYXRpb24%3D&b=5#cite_note-Simon-120-121-0%22)¨

¨The Reformation led to a series of religious wars (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9FdXJvcGVhbl9 3YXJzX29mX3JlbGlnaW9uJnF1b3Q7&b=5) that culminated in the Thirty Years' War (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UaGlydHlfWWV hcnMlMjdfV2FyJnF1b3Q7&b=5), which devastated much of Germany (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9FYXJseV9Nb2R lcm5faGlzdG9yeV9vZl9HZXJtYW55JnF1b3Q7&b=5), killing between 25 and 40% of its population.[14] (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UaGVfUmVmb3J tYXRpb24%3D&b=5#cite_note-13%22) From 1618 to 1648 the Catholic House of Habsburg (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9Ib3VzZV9vZl9 IYWJzYnVyZyZxdW90Ow%3D%3D&b=5) and its allies fought against the Protestant princes of Germany, supported at various times by Denmark (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9EZW5tYXJrJnF 1b3Q7&b=5), Sweden (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9Td2VkZW4mcXV vdDs%3D&b=5) and France (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9GcmFuY2UmcXV vdDs%3D&b=5). The Habsburgs, who ruled Spain (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9TcGFpbiZxdW9 0Ow%3D%3D&b=5), Austria (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9BdXN0cmlhJnF 1b3Q7&b=5), the Spanish Netherlands (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9TcGFuaXNoX05 ldGhlcmxhbmRzJnF1b3Q7&b=5) and much of Germany (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9HZXJtYW55JnF 1b3Q7&b=5) and Italy (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9JdGFseSZxdW9 0Ow%3D%3D&b=5), were staunch defenders of the Catholic Church. Some historians believe that the era of the Reformation came to a close when Catholic France allied itself, first in secret and later on the battlefields, with Protestant states against the Habsburg dynasty.[1] (http://www.unblockmyspace.com/browse.php?u=Oi8vcGFzaHR1bmZvcnVtcy5jb20vJnF1b3Q7a HR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9UaGVfUmVmb3J tYXRpb24%3D&b=5#cite_note-Simon-120-121-0%22) For the first time since the days of Luther, political and national convictions again outweighed religious convictions in Europe.¨

The enlightenment was a reaction to the reformation.

The reformation was many times, but largely a fundamentalist Christian reaction to the ¨unchristian¨ Catholic church, and ironically, an uprising against the economic rules of the Catholic church, which are based on the Bible in the first place.

Levanaye Zalmaye
05-07-2010, 06:44 AM
Ah yeah, Sangar. Polite as always. The Reformation only caused more violence because the Temple of Hate (the Catholic Church) was openly challenged. Millions were oppressed under the Catholic Church's system for over a thousand years and when they rose up, the natural outcome became war. No surprises there - the Catholic dukes and monarchs tried to crush the new movement with everything they had. Perhaps imb or yourself can enlighten me as to how it was the fault of the Lutherans or the Anglicans...

Moreover, why was not the overthrow of a corrupt and oppressive clergy a liberation? Those priests are still out there raping kids.

The Enlightenment was not a movement in the same sense of the word. It was, as the name suggests, an awakening - the dawning of the modern era, the birth of varied values, ideals and ideas.... That's where liberalism and secularism (and even nationalism) were born. I have never come across anything resembling the statement that the Enlightenment started because of the horrors of the 30 Years War. Perhaps you can shed some more light on that....

Dinosaur Khan
05-07-2010, 07:32 AM
Islam does'nt need reformations, muslims are needed to be reformed back to proper pathaway of islam.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-07-2010, 07:35 AM
Islam does'nt need reformations, muslims are needed to be reformed back to proper pathaway of islam.


May I ask, what is the proper pathway of Islam, there are so many pathways explained by 100's of hadiths with their own unique explanation.

Dinosaur Khan
05-07-2010, 07:39 AM
= Quran

= sahih hadith

i have yet to see contradictions in basic islamic teachings.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-07-2010, 07:46 AM
= Quran

= sahih hadith

i have yet to see contradictions in basic islamic teachings.


But as with every relgion, you will always get a opposed view. So how can we make every single Muslim to follow one straight path guided by one scholar or mullah? its impossible!

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 07:49 AM
You tell me smartypants, what school of Protestantism did Copernicus belong to? And what school of Protestantism did Galileo belong to?

And what role did trade and contact with different continents atribute to reformation?

Dinosaur Khan
05-07-2010, 07:55 AM
^Actually Leavanay zalmay, an athiest, thinks that islam is lagging behind because there are no modifications in it. But according to me, if we start modifying Quran & hadith then whole concept of religion of islam become invalid for us.
We have to correct ourselves rather than correcting divine teachings of islam.
and ofcourse i am against mullahism.

imb706
05-07-2010, 03:18 PM
Ah yeah, Sangar. Polite as always. The Reformation only caused more violence because the Temple of Hate (the Catholic Church) was openly challenged.

Yeah, I guess John Calvin and Martin Luther had nothing to do with that, lol.

imb706
05-07-2010, 03:34 PM
Uh...no. It hasn´t on the behalf of islamic crybabies.

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 03:38 PM
Uh...no. It hasn´t on the behalf of islamic crybabies.
There is no freedom of speech. It's a lie. If you criticize Western agression against Muslims and peacefully protest against them, they label you as a potential terrorist and wiretap you and put 24-hour surveillance on you and remove your video's from youtube.

imb706
05-07-2010, 03:50 PM
Yeah Ive seen that typed here before. Try harder in convincing people to be against cartoons XD

imb706
05-07-2010, 04:17 PM
Um, let´s see, the mormons of Islam (Nation of Islam) killed Malcolm X for leaving their religion. And MLK Jr, an agnostic christian, was killed by a fundie white baptist christian. Unless they were state sanctioned (Im sure some conspiracy theorist think so) how is that proof? this nonsense needs to stop. What nonsense exactly? If you mean the fundie islamic response, yes I agree.

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Yeah Ive seen that typed here before. Try harder in convincing people to be against cartoons XD
I am against freedom of speech. People should be banned from saying whatever nonsense they come up with.

DOn't let the kids here make you believe all Muslims share the same values as Western liberal democrats do.

Islam is clearly against absolute freedom of speech. If you speak KUFR, you must be dealt with. That's it.

imb706
05-07-2010, 04:23 PM
I am against freedom of speech. Duh... Islam is clearly against absolute freedom of speech. If you speak KUFR, you must be dealt with. That's it. Which is way Islam is a bad religion.

شمله ور خراساني
05-07-2010, 04:39 PM
Duh... Which is way Islam is a bad religion.
That's not true. Islam is the only true religion. And you were born as a Muslim like all human beings.

But your environment has corrupted you and hence you have turned to a person who dislikes the original true religion.

But if you desire to go to paradise and if you really open your heart and mind to the ultimate truth, Allah will guide you to his religion.

Joining this forum might be the best opportunity for you to get to know Islam.

I am willing to guide and help you to learn about Islam and turn back to the original faith of all mankind.

imb706
05-07-2010, 04:52 PM
::Snicker::, yeah sure the one true religion. A religion of peace, and we´ll kill you if you disagree. Islam is a bunch of gibberish to be honest. And you were born as a Muslim like all human beings. Yeah, whatever, it´s a bunch of hokus pokus.

imb706
05-07-2010, 05:18 PM
Well, not as ignorant as Dr. Death.