View Full Version : Critique of Free Will in Western Liberal Democracy


شمله ور خراساني
05-04-2010, 07:54 AM
The free will and freedom of choice people claim to have in Western Liberal Democracies is very limited. The choice is led by systematic education, advertisement, propaganda and manipulation.

People are made to believe they are free to choose among various options presented to them. But their options are presented to them by institutions, organizations and corporations who intend to influence and coerse the masses.

The claim that Islam is against free will and muslims are not free is often made by champions of free will and liberalism. But they are often unaware of how they are led to believe in free will by institutions who in fact have influenced them to choose to live and behave in accordance to mores designed by others.

I believe that there is no difference between being a devout Muslim or a liberalist. Both choose to follow dogma, and both adapt to certain codes and ethics.

The difference is, liberalists follow man made codes and ethics. And our codes and ethics are based on revelation.

imb706
05-04-2010, 08:17 AM
I agree that free will doesn't exist, but not in the way you think. Free will doesn't exist period, everything humans do is determined by nature, we're highly complex, emotional beings (you can read a lot about this here: http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/biology_economics.htm) As Sid Myer said, human behavior is economic behavior. The choice is led by systematic education Um, education creates freedom and opportunity. Obviously peoples lives are better and more free since free education has been introduced into society. Countries with more emphasis on education and educational opportunities have a higher quality of life. advertisement Advertisement is just a natural part of humanity. Yes deceptive advertising should be fought, but it's not the root of all evil. propaganda and manipulation. The societies with the most propaganda and manipulation is the islamic world. The claim that Islam is against free will and muslims are not free is often made by champions of free will and liberalism Um, not really. If anything, the "champions of free will and liberalism" come to the aid of Islam all the time. Look at liberal corporations and organizations that make heavy ties with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. They are major corporations, a result of liberalism, wet dreams, when it comes to profit and product advertisement anyway. But they are often unaware of how they are led to believe in free will by institutions who in fact have influenced them to choose to live and behave in accordance to mores designed by others. Like how muslims in islamic countries are led to believe what they do by their societies? People are made to believe they are free to choose among various options presented to them. But their options are presented to them by institutions, organizations and corporations who intend to influence and coerse the masses. Like in the Islamic world? The difference is, liberalists follow man made codes and ethics. And our codes and ethics are based on revelation. All codes and ethics are man made. Muslims try way too hard to get people to not be for publishing cartoons.

شمله ور خراساني
05-04-2010, 03:36 PM
You should learn not to get to exited.

The argument is, that you have your options already presented to you by institutions. Just like a religion.

I did not say we as Muslims enjoy more freedom of choice than you. I just said, your dogma of freedom of choice is false IF you think you have absolute freedom of choice. Because you don't. You just have a few options.

The way your life is organized, it is highly dependent on institutions, organizations and large political and social movements who decide for you.

You don't have a choice but to conform to the requirements of the time and situation you live in. And that is very strongly shaped by institutions.

So in essence, your freedom of choice is limited.

The way you dress, the things you eat, the places you visit, the things you do, most of it is standard and defined by insititutions and organizations who did that for you. You can't deny that.

I agree that free will doesn't exist, but not in the way you think. Free will doesn't exist period, everything humans do is determined by nature, we're highly complex, emotional beings (you can read a lot about this here: http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/biology_economics.htm) As Sid Myer said, human behavior is economic behavior. Um, education creates freedom and opportunity. Obviously peoples lives are better and more free since free education has been introduced into society. Countries with more emphasis on education and educational opportunities have a higher quality of life. Advertisement is just a natural part of humanity. Yes deceptive advertising should be fought, but it's not the root of all evil. The societies with the most propaganda and manipulation is the islamic world. Um, not really. If anything, the "champions of free will and liberalism" come to the aid of Islam all the time. Look at liberal corporations and organizations that make heavy ties with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. They are major corporations, a result of liberalism, wet dreams, when it comes to profit and product advertisement anyway. Like how muslims in islamic countries are led to believe what they do by their societies? Like in the Islamic world? All codes and ethics are man made. Muslims try way too hard to get people to not be for publishing cartoons.

imb706
05-04-2010, 04:12 PM
You should learn not to get to exited. Do you mean excited, because that's the last word I expected to see :p The argument is, that you have your options already presented to you by institutions. Just like a religion. The way you dress, the things you eat, the places you visit, the things you do, most of it is standard and defined by insititutions and organizations who did that for you. You can't deny that. Well, duh, just that the Islamic religions "options" are misery, poverty, death, ignorance and destruction. Not so in the modern world. I just said, your dogma of freedom of choice is false IF you think you have absolute freedom of choice. Again, this is the most piss poor argument for banning cartoons I've ever seen. No one really cares what people who don't like or understand freedom of expression (you did mean that, didn't you?) think about the topic to be perfectly honest. At least to the point when they're willing to blow your ass up over a teddy bear drawing. You come off as terribly uneducated and trying really hard to get people to be against a simple drawing. When people from the Islamic world crusade against freedom and try to talk about how much of a lie and bad it is, they only prove their critics right. They're very primitive and stuck in the 11th century. You don't have a choice but to conform to the requirements of the time and situation you live in. And that is very strongly shaped by institutions. Thanks for the obvious observation.

شمله ور خراساني
05-04-2010, 04:14 PM
you are a offended. DOn't be. Relax

imb706
05-04-2010, 04:16 PM
I'm not offended, I'm just pointing out how the very basis of your argument is flawed and is not going to win anyone over, well, maybe except muslims. It would help your case if you knew what terms like liberal and such meant. ;)

Roshina
05-04-2010, 05:24 PM
Sangara, the claim isn't made against Muslims alone. I'm not sure why some Muslims find pleasure in ALWAYS seeing themselves as the victims of everything. You're not, unless you believe you are.

The claim is made simply against everyone who believes in God. Period. And it's not just Muslims who believe in God, remember?

Many have tried to argue for free will using religion, but none have succeeded in my mind. I remain thinking that "if God knows you're gonna do A, then you can't do B or -A because to do so will mean that God believed the wrong thing, which is not possible since God doesn't/can't lie or make wrong predictions." But I'm not too sure yet 'cause I'll have to look a little deeper into the debate before deciding it free will exists or not.

I once read an article that talked about how this is the case (i.e., free will doesn't exist) only if God is in time with us, which I haven't fully grasped yet, so I'll have to look into that to really get its essence.

Roshina
05-04-2010, 05:34 PM
you are a offended. DOn't be. Relax

LOL! OMG! :D there you go again, Sangar ;) telling people to "relax" just because they disagree with you, and thinking that they are "offended" just because of the same thing, lol.

I must make a collections of all of your reactions to people who disagree with you. They'd be fun to read in times of distress, methinks.

@ Imb706: I wouldn't worry what he says about your being offended and all. He's made similar remarks to me and all others with whom he chooses to have discussions. He seems to beleive that he has power over us that allows him to offend us even in the slightest, or incite any other weak emotions in us, and I think that's just adorable! It's like, dude, man, it's called disagreement; live with it, or just move on. I'm starting to think that he speaks for himself when he tells others that they are offended or have anger issues or need to learn how to handle differences and so forth. That must be the case, yes.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-04-2010, 05:47 PM
Imb706 do you see yourself as a atheist Mullah?

As i said so many times, dont hate Muslims as they always come to fight for your CIA khazar missions, Now Iran is on the target, who will you use and abuse to get your plans completed, you guess it, its gonna be your Muslim servents hahaha!

I dont see why Americans complain about Radical Muslim Islamists, they are your first class graduates of Jihadi University of Nebraska hahaha!

Maiwand
05-04-2010, 05:54 PM
The only people who are truly free are the real muslims. Because we only obey God, the one who created us and nobody else. All the other people are slaves of others or they are slaves of their own lusts and desires.

imb706
05-05-2010, 03:22 AM
Imb706 do you see yourself as a atheist Mullah? There's atheist mullahs I ask again? So they're in it for the many wives or just in it for the drug trade? As i said so many times, dont hate Muslims as they always come to fight for your CIA khazar missions, Now Iran is on the target, who will you use and abuse to get your plans completed, you guess it, its gonna be your Muslim servents hahaha! I dont see why Americans complain about Radical Muslim Islamists, they are your first class graduates of Jihadi University of Nebraska hahaha! Are you on drugs?

شمله ور خراساني
05-05-2010, 08:01 AM
I'm not offended, I'm just pointing out how the very basis of your argument is flawed and is not going to win anyone over, well, maybe except muslims. It would help your case if you knew what terms like liberal and such meant. ;)
The bases of my argument is not flawed. You only say that because you hear this from a Muslim. While in fact this is stated by sociologists and philosphers of the west.

Freedom of choice is an illusion you are made to believe in.

And the reason why you are trying to counter this by cheap blows against Islam only affirms that you are unable to accept this fact from a Muslim.

THat's why I used the term dogma.

شمله ور خراساني
05-05-2010, 08:03 AM
LOL! OMG! :D there you go again, Sangar ;) telling people to "relax" just because they disagree with you, and thinking that they are "offended" just because of the same thing, lol.

I must make a collections of all of your reactions to people who disagree with you. They'd be fun to read in times of distress, methinks.

@ Imb706: I wouldn't worry what he says about your being offended and all. He's made similar remarks to me and all others with whom he chooses to have discussions. He seems to beleive that he has power over us that allows him to offend us even in the slightest, or incite any other weak emotions in us, and I think that's just adorable! It's like, dude, man, it's called disagreement; live with it, or just move on. I'm starting to think that he speaks for himself when he tells others that they are offended or have anger issues or need to learn how to handle differences and so forth. That must be the case, yes.


I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

May allah guide you.

شمله ور خراساني
05-05-2010, 08:04 AM
Sangara, the claim isn't made against Muslims alone. I'm not sure why some Muslims find pleasure in ALWAYS seeing themselves as the victims of everything. You're not, unless you believe you are.

The claim is made simply against everyone who believes in God. Period. And it's not just Muslims who believe in God, remember?

Many have tried to argue for free will using religion, but none have succeeded in my mind. I remain thinking that "if God knows you're gonna do A, then you can't do B or -A because to do so will mean that God believed the wrong thing, which is not possible since God doesn't/can't lie or make wrong predictions." But I'm not too sure yet 'cause I'll have to look a little deeper into the debate before deciding it free will exists or not.

I once read an article that talked about how this is the case (i.e., free will doesn't exist) only if God is in time with us, which I haven't fully grasped yet, so I'll have to look into that to really get its essence.


You have failed to understand what this is about.

It is not about free will as in the context of Qadar in Islam. Go and re-read the initial post. You are mixing things up now.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-05-2010, 08:16 AM
I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

May allah guide you.


Here we go again with the ranting Salafis, If she has sided with the Kuffur then your also sided with the Kuffur as your living in a state of Kuffurs. You live under their laws which makes you a citizen of Holland, logically, if you live there means you accept their laws, which makes you a bigger friend of Kuffur.

May common sense guide you.

If nobody can question Islam then whats the point of an Intellectual debate, should we all bow down to the Emir of salafism and accept whatever non sense you invented and impose on people.

Just because you can not argue with people doesnt make them friends of Kuffurs, i know hurts that an Female whom you Salafis regard as nothing but an Sexual object who should spend their lives in the kitchen or provide you with desire whenever you want or the angels will curse them at night.

Also Sangar....the biggest friends of the Kuffur were your Mujahideen, especially your heros such as Haqqanis haha can you tell me how much dollars and weapons did they receive from the Kuffurs of America

Its become fashion to use Arabic curse words,but we can fight back sangar and say the same, that those who oppose Pashtunwali are not Pashtuns but Kwanees, The term "kwanee" should be established as a new word that best describes those traitors who bend over to Arabs,Americans and punjabis and work against Pashtunwali and Pashtun culture.

Have a great day.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-05-2010, 08:17 AM
[QUOTE=Sangar;21864]I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

Full of hate and anger....hahaha coming from a Salafi who wants shias and sufis to be slaughtered in public and their bodies hang so others can see.

HIPOcrite!

imb706
05-05-2010, 08:22 AM
The bases of my argument is not flawed.

Sure it is. For example, it's basing itself on the idea that free will exist. That and all it is is the typical muslim attempt to convince people freedom is satanic and to stop drawing cartoons to inflame their bronze age sensibilities.


@ Imb706: I wouldn't worry what he says about your being offended and all. He's made similar remarks to me and all others with whom he chooses to have discussions. He seems to beleive that he has power over us that allows him to offend us even in the slightest, or incite any other weak emotions in us, and I think that's just adorable! It's like, dude, man, it's called disagreement; live with it, or just move on. I'm starting to think that he speaks for himself when he tells others that they are offended or have anger issues or need to learn how to handle differences and so forth. That must be the case, yes.

Thanks for the support Qrratugai :)

شمله ور خراساني
05-05-2010, 08:31 AM
Sure it is. For example, it's basing itself on the idea that free will exist. That and all it is is the typical muslim attempt to convince people freedom is satanic and to stop drawing cartoons to inflame their bronze age sensibilities.



Thanks for the support Qrratugai :)
Freedom of will as in freedom to choose what you won't no. It doesn't exist. And that's what I am trying to say. Because all your choices are designed for you by others. You don't really have much choice but to select among a few options.

ANd therefore it is wrong to believe people who believe in a certain religion and design their life in accordance to a particular religion are some how not free. And those who are not believers are free.

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 08:34 AM
In Islam we don't know pahtunwali, tajikwali, hazarajaat or whatever. We are all one Ummah and one nation. From Spain until Indonesia. We are one body. It is not appropriate for the muslims to make distinction among themselves in terms of nationality, language or ethnicity. That's something from the Jahilya (time of ignorance). Inshallah in the near future we are going to establish the Khilafah state again and every muslim will be welcome to stay in it. That's what all the hypocrites and unbelievers are afraid of. They are afraid of the muslim unity, that's why they use theire proxies (dogs) to divide the muslim Ummah and after that conquer one land after the other, like they have done with Afghanistan, Irak, Somalia, Palestine, Pakistan and in the near future more Islamic countries, if the muslims don't wake up and realise that it is a war between Islam and unbelief, a war that had started 1400 years ago with the completion of the Islamic religion. It is your choice, whether you side with the kuffar or the muslims, but if you support the kuffar in any shape or form, you have only yourself to blame on the day of judgment and you will be thrown in the hell fire for ever and ever. As far as "western liberal democracy" is concerned, such thing doesn't exist in reality, it's only an ideal, just like communism and "democracy" is an ideal state on paper, but the reality is otherwise. Secular democray is the biggest shirk, unbelief, because people do not rule with the law of God, but with the man-made laws. And it won't long time inshallah, that we establish the Islamic state all over the world and make the word of Allah (swt) supreme!

شمله ور خراساني
05-05-2010, 08:38 AM
Well Said Salahudeen... oh I mean Maiwand.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-05-2010, 08:39 AM
In Islam we don't know pahtunwali, tajikwali, hazarajaat or whatever. We are all one Ummah and one nation. From Spain until Indonesia. We are one body. It is not appropriate for the muslims to make distinction among themselves in terms of nationality, language or ethnicity. That's something from the Jahilya (time of ignorance). Inshallah in the near future we are going to establish the Khilafah state again and every muslim will be welcome to stay in it. That's what all the hypocrites and unbelievers are afraid of. They are afraid of the muslim unity, that's why they use theire proxies (dogs) to divide the muslim Ummah and after that conquer one land after the other, like they have done with Afghanistan, Irak, Somalia, Palestine, Pakistan and in the near future more Islamic countries, if the muslims don't wake up and realise that it is a war between Islam and unbelief, a war that had started 1400 years ago with the completion of the Islamic religion. It is your choice, whether you side with the kuffar or the muslims, but if you support the kuffar in any shape or form, you have only yourself to blame on the day of judgment and you will be thrown in the hell fire for ever and ever. As far as "western liberal democracy" is concerned, such thing doesn't exist in reality, it's only an ideal, just like communism and "democracy" is an ideal state on paper, but the reality is otherwise. Secular democray is the biggest shirk, unbelief, because people do not rule with the law of God, but with the man-made laws. And it won't long time inshallah, that we establish the Islamic state all over the world and make the word of Allah (swt) supreme!


stop the emotional blackmail.

We dont need the tablighi lecture.

Your Muslims love to live in Europe than their own Islamic countries, doesnt this tell you anything.

If secular Democracy is shirk, then your ISI jihadi Salafism is also shirk.

Establish an Islamic state, how many times has it happened but completely failed? ottomons, arabs,persians etc etc etc

Also we dont need Arab economic imperialism to shower our lands and destroy our identity to secure their influence over our areas.

You can screem kaffir or shirk all you want, but Ummah is a fantasy invented by Desert Jockeys who want to rule over you,

And you say Pashtunwali and love for your culture is jahiliayat? then why do you support Palestinian independence, isnt that nationalism and jahilayat.

You are brainwashed to go against your own people to serve Arabs.

and Salafist Wahabist laws are good on Paper????? what happened during the taliban rule?

Please we are no longer so easily deceived by Mullah talk, we are in the information media era, we do not live in the stone ages anymore where you can trick us by scaring us with monsters and demons.

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 09:01 AM
ahahaha.

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 09:02 AM
emotional blackmail, ahahha. Look who is talking.

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 09:03 AM
stop the emotional blackmail.

We dont need the tablighi lecture.

Your Muslims love to live in Europe than their own Islamic countries, doesnt this tell you anything.

If secular Democracy is shirk, then your ISI jihadi Salafism is also shirk.

Establish an Islamic state, how many times has it happened but completely failed? ottomons, arabs,persians etc etc etc

Also we dont need Arab economic imperialism to shower our lands and destroy our identity to secure their influence over our areas.

You can screem kaffir or shirk all you want, but Ummah is a fantasy invented by Desert Jockeys who want to rule over you,

And you say Pashtunwali and love for your culture is jahiliayat? then why do you support Palestinian independence, isnt that nationalism and jahilayat.

You are brainwashed to go against your own people to serve Arabs.

and Salafist Wahabist laws are good on Paper????? what happened during the taliban rule?

Please we are no longer so easily deceived by Mullah talk, we are in the information media era, we do not live in the stone ages anymore where you can trick us by scaring us with monsters and demons.
emotional blackmail, ahahha. Look who is talking.

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 09:04 AM
Well Said Salahudeen... oh I mean Maiwand.
ahaha, Salahueen is everywhere, conquering new territory :)

شمله ور خراساني
05-05-2010, 09:09 AM
emotional blackmail, ahahha. Look who is talking.

Maiwand Khan, ignore this makeenMaseed He is a clown. Check him out on youtube: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=896_1211745868

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 09:12 AM
ahaha, those nationalists are really pathetic.

Roshina
05-05-2010, 09:41 AM
I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

May allah guide you.

May Allah guide you as well! How interesting that our views of each other are like 100% the same much of the time, yeah?

Roshina
05-05-2010, 09:48 AM
In Islam we don't know pahtunwali, tajikwali, hazarajaat or whatever. We are all one Ummah and one nation. From Spain until Indonesia. We are one body. It is not appropriate for the muslims to make distinction among themselves in terms of nationality, language or ethnicity. That's something from the Jahilya (time of ignorance). Inshallah in the near future we are going to establish the Khilafah state again and every muslim will be welcome to stay in it. That's what all the hypocrites and unbelievers are afraid of. They are afraid of the muslim unity, that's why they use theire proxies (dogs) to divide the muslim Ummah and after that conquer one land after the other, like they have done with Afghanistan, Irak, Somalia, Palestine, Pakistan and in the near future more Islamic countries, if the muslims don't wake up and realise that it is a war between Islam and unbelief, a war that had started 1400 years ago with the completion of the Islamic religion. It is your choice, whether you side with the kuffar or the muslims, but if you support the kuffar in any shape or form, you have only yourself to blame on the day of judgment and you will be thrown in the hell fire for ever and ever. As far as "western liberal democracy" is concerned, such thing doesn't exist in reality, it's only an ideal, just like communism and "democracy" is an ideal state on paper, but the reality is otherwise. Secular democray is the biggest shirk, unbelief, because people do not rule with the law of God, but with the man-made laws. And it won't long time inshallah, that we establish the Islamic state all over the world and make the word of Allah (swt) supreme!

You fail to use Islamic sources to back any of your points up.

And western democracy is actually quite practiced *in the west.* (As a friend of mine once said, the west isn't so west when it's in the east! I agree with this. When the west is in the east, it forgets about its ideals of humanism and liberty for all, but in the west, it fights to keep these same ideals -- and quite successfully almost all of the time.)

However, I must remind you that this Ummah you speak of is very unrealistic. You want the entire Muslim world to unite, but you don't seem to realize that Pashtuns ARE Muslims - first unite them. Take it one step at a time, bro, will you? Uniting Pashtuns will mean uniting Muslims.

Then, you also don't seem to have a plan for how to achieve universal unity of all Muslims. I doubt anyone will disagree with you that unity is the most important thing for the survival of humanity, including Muslims. We can't be guaranteed a safe future if we keep killing each other -- but you know what the problem is, wrorai? This:

We can't agree on what defines a Muslim! We think all Muslims who disagree with us are heretics. Why should anyone agree with this? Why should someone who doesn't know how to judge properly be even ALLLOWED to speak of an "Islamic state"? Why should the rest of the world listen to her/him?

So, yeah, as long as we keep this low a mentality, we'll never be united.

Roshina
05-05-2010, 09:56 AM
You have failed to understand what this is about.

It is not about free will as in the context of Qadar in Islam. Go and re-read the initial post. You are mixing things up now.

No. Your first post made it clear that you consider yourself a victim of people's views:
The free will and freedom of choice people claim to have in Western Liberal Democracies is very limited.

The claim that Islam is against free will and muslims are not free is often made by champions of free will and liberalism.
The difference is, liberalists follow man made codes and ethics. And our codes and ethics are based on revelation.

You, dear brother, seem to think that the only categories in existence today are "Muslims" and "western liberal democrats," which is far, far from true. You also see to think that ALL Muslims agree on whether there's free will or not. And that, too, is not true. Look into some Islamic (or Muslim) philosophy, and study some Muslim philosophers.

If you understood my post, you'd have seen that it's not just Muslims who are often in disputes with those who are pro-free will; non-Muslim theists are in the same shoes with Muslims. But, na, we'd rather see ourselves as victims of everyone's comments.

And, by the way, you don't believe in free will but that doesn't make it existent or non-existent. Free will is one of the most widely discussed topic in philosophy and religions, and it's not as simple as you wanna believe it is.

However, as for me, it doesn't matter to me. Whether I have free will or not, I will still continue doing what I believe is right and avoid what I believe is wrong, so it doens't change anything for me -- and I *know* it doesn't change anything for everyone else either. But that's just us to whom it doesn't matter; to some people, it's their entire lifetime.

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 10:03 AM
You fail to use Islamic sources to back any of your points up.

And western democracy is actually quite practiced *in the west.* (As a friend of mine once said, the west isn't so west when it's in the east! I agree with this. When the west is in the east, it forgets about its ideals of humanism and liberty for all, but in the west, it fights to keep these same ideals -- and quite successfully almost all of the time.)

However, I must remind you that this Ummah you speak of is very unrealistic. You want the entire Muslim world to unite, but you don't seem to realize that Pashtuns ARE Muslims - first unite them. Take it one step at a time, bro, will you? Uniting Pashtuns will mean uniting Muslims.

Then, you also don't seem to have a plan for how to achieve universal unity of all Muslims. I doubt anyone will disagree with you that unity is the most important thing for the survival of humanity, including Muslims. We can't be guaranteed a safe future if we keep killing each other -- but you know what the problem is, wrorai? This:

We can't agree on what defines a Muslim! We think all Muslims who disagree with us are heretics. Why should anyone agree with this? Why should someone who doesn't know how to judge properly be even ALLLOWED to speak of an "Islamic state"? Why should the rest of the world listen to her/him?

So, yeah, as long as we keep this low a mentality, we'll never be united.
It's not very difficult to define a muslim. A muslim is someone who has submitted himself to the Almighty Allah (swt). That means that you have to believe in the Quran and the sahih hadiths. It's that simple. And if there are people who call themselves muslim. but don't believe in the Quran or the hadith, they are only making fun of themselves. Because as a muslim we believe the Quran is the word of God. So when we Pashtuns and muslims agree on that, then we are a achieving unity.

Roshina
05-05-2010, 10:26 AM
It's not very difficult to define a muslim. A muslim is someone who has submitted himself to the Almighty Allah (swt). That means that you have to believe in the Quran and the sahih hadiths. It's that simple. And if there are people who call themselves muslim. but don't believe in the Quran or the hadith, they are only making fun of themselves. Because as a muslim we believe the Quran is the word of God. So when we Pashtuns and muslims agree on that, then we are a achieving unity.

You see, Maiwand wrora, whenever you say "this means," it means you're *interpreting* something. So, ALLLLLLLLL Muslims certainly agree that being a Muslim means the person is submitting to the will of God. The disagreement becomes apparent when discourses on the "will of God" are held, kana. To most Muslims, Islam = Quran + hadith, but not to all. To you, it's simple, but not to all Muslims is it this simple. And what does it mean to beleive or not to believe in something (e.g., the Quran and/or hadiths)? To you, it might mean accept all of them without question; to others, it might mean accept some of them but critically only--that's to say, be careful about what you accept just like that.

You say that once we agree on this, we achieve unity. I agree that when there are agreements, there is more unity ... BUT... is that all there is to unity? Or is unity more than that? And do you believe that we can be united with people, particularly Muslims, who don't believe our way or with whom we don't agree on everything? I think the problem is that we havne't yet learned how to tolerate Muslims with different views than our own, and we're fooled into believing that the only way to achieve unity is to have 100% the same beliefs, accept 100% the same interpretation of the Quran/hadiths, and accept/follow 100% the same scholars/leaders. THIS, I totally disagree with. We don't have to be the same to be united.

And I also think that unity goes far beyond just having the same beliefs. We need to show that we're united as well, and one way is by appreciating and respecting and tolerating each other in spite our differences, be they languages, cultures, interpretations of Islam, dressing style, religious/non-religious attitude, and so on.

Last I checked somewhere, we have no right to decide who's Muslim and who's not; if someone says he's Muslim, then we must treat him as such. We also can't decide who's a "true" Muslim and who's not, because just as you and I can label someone as a "fake" Muslim, someone else can label us fake as well -- and just as you and I might not care who labels us what, especially when their opinion doens't matter to us, OUR opinion might not matter to those we label either.

Get what I mean?

Maiwand
05-05-2010, 10:39 AM
You see, Maiwand wrora, whenever you say "this means," it means you're *interpreting* something. So, ALLLLLLLLL Muslims certainly agree that being a Muslim means the person is submitting to the will of God. The disagreement becomes apparent when discourses on the "will of God" are held, kana. To most Muslims, Islam = Quran + hadith, but not to all. To you, it's simple, but not to all Muslims is it this simple. And what does it mean to beleive or not to believe in something (e.g., the Quran and/or hadiths)? To you, it might mean accept all of them without question; to others, it might mean accept some of them but critically only--that's to say, be careful about what you accept just like that.

You say that once we agree on this, we achieve unity. I agree that when there are agreements, there is more unity ... BUT... is that all there is to unity? Or is unity more than that? And do you believe that we can be united with people, particularly Muslims, who don't believe our way or with whom we don't agree on everything? I think the problem is that we havne't yet learned how to tolerate Muslims with different views than our own, and we're fooled into believing that the only way to achieve unity is to have 100% the same beliefs, accept 100% the same interpretation of the Quran/hadiths, and accept/follow 100% the same scholars/leaders. THIS, I totally disagree with. We don't have to be the same to be united.

And I also think that unity goes far beyond just having the same beliefs. We need to show that we're united as well, and one way is by appreciating and respecting and tolerating each other in spite our differences, be they languages, cultures, interpretations of Islam, dressing style, religious/non-religious attitude, and so on.

Last I checked somewhere, we have no right to decide who's Muslim and who's not; if someone says he's Muslim, then we must treat him as such. We also can't decide who's a "true" Muslim and who's not, because just as you and I can label someone as a "fake" Muslim, someone else can label us fake as well -- and just as you and I might not care who labels us what, especially when their opinion doens't matter to us, OUR opinion might not matter to those we label either.

Get what I mean?
Unity in diversity is oke with me. As long that they believe in the fundamentals of the religion. But besides that, you don't have to be a muslim to be allowed entry in the Islamic state or reside in it. There will be freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of religion. As God says in the Quran: There is no compulsion in religion. But in the Islamic state we are going to rule with the Shairah, that means Quran, Sunnah and consensus of the scholars, so it's oke to have different interpretations of secondary issues, but the muslims should agree on the fundamentals of the religon.