View Full Version : Qrratugai/leavanay zalmay vs Dinosaur khan.


Dinosaur Khan
05-01-2010, 12:24 PM
I challenge all the views of Qrratugai and Leavanay Zalmay on islam. It will not be primarily a game of presenting, sources, refrences and evidences, just a debate of views yielded from our own brain. though it is choice to present sources for making point convincing and heavy.
I hope you two will accept the challenge of such unknown member on intellectual debate.

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 12:28 PM
I challenge all the views of Qrratugai and Leavanay Zalmay on islam. It will not be primarily a game of presenting, sources, refrences and evidences, just a debate of views yielded from our own brain. though it is choice to present sources for making point convincing and heavy.
I hope you two will accept the challenge of such unknown member on intellectual debate.
I am with you. However, I do not have high expectations from Qrratugai. Especially since I saw her replies to the ahlul sunnah wa al jam'ah thread I made. I think she usally just keeps arguing for the sake of argument rather than re-examining them in the light of the critique posed to them.

Dinosaur Khan
05-01-2010, 12:34 PM
Following are the challenges

1) God exists

2) Islam is the best religion for disciplining and socializing ones life.

3) it is best religion for women

4) Islamic punishments are valid, appropiate and effective

Khushal Khan Khattak
05-01-2010, 01:11 PM
Dino, you have my support as well, though, here you said:

Following are the challenges

1) God exists



Dude, if we could prove that, then there would be no atheists or non Muslims.

How do you propose on proving the existence of God?

tor_khan
05-01-2010, 01:14 PM
I challenge all the views of Qrratugai and Leavanay Zalmay on islam. It will not be primarily a game of presenting, sources, refrences and evidences, just a debate of views yielded from our own brain. though it is choice to present sources for making point convincing and heavy.
I hope you two will accept the challenge of such unknown member on intellectual debate.

Having a reasoned thoughtful debate is one thing, but do you think that starting a thread as an open personal challenges is helpful? It's a declaration of an openly hostile combat and is really about personal issues rather than anything that goes towards Pashtoon betterment.

Not necessary when bombs are going off in Peshawar, the Taliban is raising its ugly head in Swat again and NATO forces are leaving behind a mess in Afghanistan.

Your priorities and your reasons for debate are all mixed up.

Roshina
05-01-2010, 02:10 PM
Having a reasoned thoughtful debate is one thing, but do you think that starting a thread as an open personal challenges is helpful? It's a declaration of an openly hostile combat and is really about personal issues rather than anything that goes towards Pashtoon betterment.

Your priorities and your reasons for debate are all mixed up.

Yes. It's obvious that neither he nor Sangar is willing to actually hear a different perspective, but both think that they're here only to challenge.

Well, I'm cool with that. They just have to prove their points, that's all. I'm used to this - been doing it the last 8 years, lol. I was once in his shoes, too, mind ya ;) Thought I could prove people wrong and all with having looked at only ONE interpretation of a certain guideline and having analyzed only ONE view.

I am with you. However, I do not have high expectations from Qrratugai. Especially since I saw her replies to the ahlul sunnah wa al jam'ah thread I made. I think she usally just keeps arguing for the sake of argument rather than re-examining them in the light of the critique posed to them.

OMG! :D The feeling coudln't be ANY more mutual, bro! Wah! I think you don't have any good points or support for your claims, and you think I don't; I think it's useless to get into a discussion with you because you're not willing to hear what I've to say, and you think it's vice versa.

Yep, the feeling's mutual: I expect nothing positive, tolerant, worth-reading to come out of your posts at all, and you expect the same of me.

Roshina
05-01-2010, 02:11 PM
Following are the challenges

1) God exists

2) Islam is the best religion for disciplining and socializing ones life.

3) it is best religion for women

4) Islamic punishments are valid, appropiate and effective

Yes, we know you believe this. Now, try expounding on each one. Prove them. And as far as women are concerned, what exactly do you define as "best religion"? I don't doubt that NO religion that came before the 19th century sees women as equal partners of their men counterparts, but when you say "the best for women," it implies that IF Islam is bad, then all the others are even worse. See, THAT, I don't like.

And we've already talked on the punishments in Islam... one of my focuses tends to be on those who leave Islam. Why should they be killed? And, please, don't say, "Well, in other religions, it's no better! they're to be BURNT when they leave other religions!"

No, two wrongs don't make a right. If it's wrong in one, it's wrong in the others, too. But why kill apostates? (Note: This punishment for apostasy is NOT in the Quran.)

So, where do you wanna go with this? You wanna prove God exists? Go ahead. I think you'll be doing the world a huuuuuuuuuge favor, trust me. People have been debating this since human evolved into what she/he is today!

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 02:14 PM
OMG! :D The feeling coudln't be ANY more mutual, bro! Wah! I think you don't have any good points or support for your claims, and you think I don't; I think it's useless to get into a discussion with you because you're not willing to hear what I've to say, and you think it's vice versa.

Yep, the feeling's mutual: I expect nothing positive, tolerant, worth-reading to come out of your posts at all, and you expect the same of me.
Well, you spread lies against companions of the prophet saying they denied rights of inheritence from his children which is clearly a Shi'ite fabrication. It is common knowledge the the prophets heritage is Islamic knowledge no piece of land or any such thing.

You just use void arguments and blatant lies which have been refuted centuries ago. How can one discuss anything with someone who does things you do on regular bases?

Dinosaur Khan
05-01-2010, 02:15 PM
I am neither islamic scholar nor i have any qualification on islamic studies. But i have God-gifted active brain, so naturally the creation (my Brain) incite me to defend the God's (creator of my brain) religion.
I dont need to Quote some one else thinkings on the points i mentioned above.
I am purely relying on my intellect. My biological processor will counter the arguements.

Roshina
05-01-2010, 02:29 PM
Well, you spread lies against companions of the prophet saying they denied rights of inheritence from his children which is clearly a Shi'ite fabrication.

Um... if i'ts a Shiite fabrication, then why does it appear in Sunni hadiths? Check out, for instance, Sahih Bukhari:

Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do.

- Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546.

and SahihMuslim:

“...So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life.”
- Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4352

Last I checked, both Bukhari and Muslim were Sunni sources.

It is common knowledge the the prophets heritage is Islamic knowledge no piece of land or any such thing.

This is exactly my view. And when I read the hadith in which Abu Bakr denied Fatima her property and I had to explain this hadith -- give my views for or against it -- I said something like, "WHY does 'inheritance' HAVE to mean physical property and not knowledge?" And my teacher said he agreed. But, heck, what can we do when Abu Bakr clearly didn't agree :S

You just use void arguments and blatant lies which have been refuted centuries ago. How can one discuss anything with someone who does things you do on regular bases?

The issue of fadak has not been refuted, bro, and I just showed you above that it's in Sunni hadiths; I haven't read any Shiite hadith books yet, so I'll have to look into those to see what style it's written in there. Look into it. It's still debated, and the best hadith Sunnis can give in response is, "Well, the Prophet ALSO said that anyone who bothers or angers Abu Bakr, he angers ME." Their argument is that Fatima angered Abu Bakr by not talking to him just because he denied her the right to HER property that her FATHER left her. Yet, there's another hadith that says that anyone who angers Fatima, angers the Prophet. SO, yeah.

Roshina
05-01-2010, 02:32 PM
I am neither islamic scholar nor i have any qualification on islamic studies. But i have God-gifted active brain, so naturally the creation (my Brain) incite me to defend the God's (creator of my brain) religion.
I dont need to Quote some one else thinkings on the points i mentioned above.
I am purely relying on my intellect. My biological processor will counter the arguements.

Firstly, you're ASSUMING I don't believe in God. And I do... though, as I've said elsewhere, our UNDERSTANDING of God is most likely very different, and i conclude this from the sort of things you say and the sort of things I say.

Secondly, I thought you were going to prove me and Laevany Zalmay wrong in this thread ... Zalmay doesn't believe in God. How are you gonna prove him wrong?

Thirdly, I, too, am using MY intellect, MY understanding, MY faculty to believe what I believe and say what I say. Zalmay, too, is using the same. Yet, all of us have different beliefs. How's this? So, if you're trying to say that because you THINK about your beliefs and that's why we should agree with you (I said IFFF you think this), then that makes no sense to me, 'cause I, too, think about mine. It's not like I woke up one morning and said, "ALL RIGHT! God exists!" or "Okay! I don't believe this anymore!"

We're humans. We think, we learn, we share, we teach, we change, we grow, and we change even more.

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 02:37 PM
Um... if i'ts a Shiite fabrication, then why does it appear in Sunni hadiths? Check out, for instance, Sahih Bukhari:

Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do.

- Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546.

and SahihMuslim:

“...So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life.”
- Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4352

Last I checked, both Bukhari and Muslim were Sunni sources.



This is exactly my view. And when I read the hadith in which Abu Bakr denied Fatima her property and I had to explain this hadith -- give my views for or against it -- I said something like, "WHY does 'inheritance' HAVE to mean physical property and not knowledge?" And my teacher said he agreed. But, heck, what can we do when Abu Bakr clearly didn't agree :S



The issue of fadak has not been refuted, bro, and I just showed you above that it's in Sunni hadiths; I haven't read any Shiite hadith books yet, so I'll have to look into those to see what style it's written in there. Look into it. It's still debated, and the best hadith Sunnis can give in response is, "Well, the Prophet ALSO said that anyone who bothers or angers Abu Bakr, he angers ME." Their argument is that Fatima angered Abu Bakr by not talking to him just because he denied her the right to HER property that her FATHER left her. Yet, there's another hadith that says that anyone who angers Fatima, angers the Prophet. SO, yeah.

Those are both authentic hadiths to my knowledge. Yet the story did not end there. The issue is well documented and the Shi'ite claim is refuted.

Just because you get to learn only parts of events and your professors deliberately emphasize on these matters to cast doubt and suspicion does not mean that your version of the story is the only one available.

Many books are written where this incident is discussed extensively. Would you refer to Islamic sources discussing the matters instead of some proffessor in a non-Muslim university, you would have known this. But since you prefer to learn about Islam from non-Muslims it is not surprising that you take such ridiculous stance against such matters.

Roshina
05-01-2010, 03:05 PM
Those are both authentic hadiths to my knowledge. Yet the story did not end there. The issue is well documented and the Shi'ite claim is refuted.

Just because you get to learn only parts of events and your professors deliberately emphasize on these matters to cast doubt and suspicion does not mean that your version of the story is the only one available.

Many books are written where this incident is discussed extensively. Would you refer to Islamic sources discussing the matters instead of some proffessor in a non-Muslim university, you would have known this. But since you prefer to learn about Islam from non-Muslims it is not surprising that you take such ridiculous stance against such matters.

There you go again - accusing my professors of having filtered my mind and calling MY preference of learning Islam in a non-Muslim world "ridiculous." lol. Yet, you go around creating threads in which you whine about not getting respect from members or being called a Salafi, which you obviously are and I don't see why it should be pejorative to you when you support Salafism yourself. If you're offended, that means you don't believe in Salafism and Wahabism and other ahle-hadith branches of Islam.

One more thing - just because my professors are TEACHING at an institution in a non-Muslim country does NOT mean they're kafir or non-Muslim. Oh, but then again, you have the right to issue fatwa against people whose views don't appease you, correct? Everyone's a kafir in your mind, it seems, if they don't agree with you. Gosh.

Anyway, actually, I HAVE read refutations of it, but like I said, the issue has NOT been resolved; it remains dispositive. Neither have *I* been convinced, and I'd like to be because this is absolutely WRONG in my belief.

Nonetheless, why don't you explain those refutation to us here along with the books where they're noted so that other members and I can get a fuller grasp of it? NOTHING can explain why Abu Bakr refused to give Fatima her property, and NOTHING can explain why - if he was RIGHT in making that decision - she remained angry and upset with him till her death. But I'd be delighted to hear your position on this regard and learn what you think angered her and what you think Abu Bakr's reasoning was.

And I don't understand why Bukhari and Muslim would add "Shiite claims" in their Sahihs if this "Shiite claim" is wrong. Please, explain that as well. Manana.

Dinosaur Khan
05-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Firstly, you're ASSUMING I don't believe in God. And I do... though, as I've said elsewhere, our UNDERSTANDING of God is most likely very different, and i conclude this from the sort of things you say and the sort of things I say.

Secondly, I thought you were going to prove me and Laevany Zalmay wrong in this thread ... Zalmay doesn't believe in God. How are you gonna prove him wrong?

Thirdly, I, too, am using MY intellect, MY understanding, MY faculty to believe what I believe and say what I say. Zalmay, too, is using the same. Yet, all of us have different beliefs. How's this? So, if you're trying to say that because you THINK about your beliefs and that's why we should agree with you (I said IFFF you think this), then that makes no sense to me, 'cause I, too, think about mine. It's not like I woke up one morning and said, "ALL RIGHT! God exists!" or "Okay! I don't believe this anymore!"

We're humans. We think, we learn, we share, we teach, we change, we grow, and we change even more.

levanay doesnt believe in God, my first point is specifically directed to him.
This world and vast universe is creation...
At the night when i look into sky, i find innumerable stars. Sun is also star and it has solar system in which 8 planets revolves around the sun. Planets have moons revolving around them. Billions of stars make a galaxy and there are billions of galaxies. All these stars and galaxies are moving e.g sun is moving from the centre of its galaxy at the rate of 20 km/sec. The points is that frequecy and speed of each revolution of a moon, planet and star around its axis is always constant with no difference of second. Amazing, is'nt? no star clashes with another star....why? Are these stars move and revolve on its own and randomely? Why these stars are in such discipline? Why stars are not colliding with each other...who is providing centripetal force for stars and planets to move around their axis?
Consider a stone attached at the end of string , dinosaur khan is revolving this string attached to stone above his head. I am the central axis, and stone is revolving around me like a moon revolving around earth....when qrattu will ask heathen that who is causing this stone revolving, heathen will say that it is dinosaur khan... So guys think about solar system, stars, galaxies...some one is regulating and controlling all this system...such complex yet regulated universe can not be created on its own...if universe is creation then it must have a creator, call it God , allah or ishwar.
Let suppose dinosaur khan is an alien, he visits earth and the first thing that he see is a tea cup. He wonder what is it?
Then he wonders how it came into existence. He thinks of two probabilities
a) it automatically came into existence
b) some one has made it
like athiests he assumes that it must have created on its own.
But then he thinks that why it is created?
He has no answer for it but he assumes it must have some purpose as it has regular shape.
Then another question arise in his mind, if it is created on its own then why it has specific shape, what the purpose and function of tea cup? He discards the previous assumption and make a hypothesis that there is some one who has made this tea cup. In the mean while a human appears, takes the tea cup and fills it with tea and the drink it. It automatically clicks to alien that tea cup has a use and purpose, for serving a purpose, it is created by human to use it as source to contain tea. Human is the creator of tea cup.
Now like alien thinks who is the creator of humans, earth and whole universe?

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 04:15 PM
There you go again - accusing my professors of having filtered my mind and calling MY preference of learning Islam in a non-Muslim world "ridiculous." lol. Yet, you go around creating threads in which you whine about not getting respect from members or being called a Salafi, which you obviously are and I don't see why it should be pejorative to you when you support Salafism yourself. If you're offended, that means you don't believe in Salafism and Wahabism and other ahle-hadith branches of Islam.

One more thing - just because my professors are TEACHING at an institution in a non-Muslim country does NOT mean they're kafir or non-Muslim. Oh, but then again, you have the right to issue fatwa against people whose views don't appease you, correct? Everyone's a kafir in your mind, it seems, if they don't agree with you. Gosh.

Anyway, actually, I HAVE read refutations of it, but like I said, the issue has NOT been resolved; it remains dispositive. Neither have *I* been convinced, and I'd like to be because this is absolutely WRONG in my belief.

Nonetheless, why don't you explain those refutation to us here along with the books where they're noted so that other members and I can get a fuller grasp of it? NOTHING can explain why Abu Bakr refused to give Fatima her property, and NOTHING can explain why - if he was RIGHT in making that decision - she remained angry and upset with him till her death. But I'd be delighted to hear your position on this regard and learn what you think angered her and what you think Abu Bakr's reasoning was.

And I don't understand why Bukhari and Muslim would add "Shiite claims" in their Sahihs if this "Shiite claim" is wrong. Please, explain that as well. Manana.
Your professors did teach you falsehood.

Bukhari, Muslim and other hadith collections contain many ahadith used by Shi'ites to make claims and accuse people of all sorts of stuff. Yet, these Shi'ites go about claiming Bukhari and Muslim are fabricated lies of Sunni Muslims who apparently according to Shi'ites "hate" ahlul bayt. haha.

And you are here shamefully presenting their views as evidence to discredit righteous people.

How can you still claim you were not taught falsehood by your professors?

MazloomyarMaseed
05-01-2010, 04:26 PM
I am with you. However, I do not have high expectations from Qrratugai. Especially since I saw her replies to the ahlul sunnah wa al jam'ah thread I made. I think she usally just keeps arguing for the sake of argument rather than re-examining them in the light of the critique posed to them.


You mean Sanger is immitated by an Woman who has out classed him,you wahabis always think woman should be mentally lower than your already retarded view of life.

Admin Khan
05-01-2010, 04:33 PM
You mean Sanger is immitated by an Woman who has out classed him,you wahabis always think woman should be mentally lower than your already retarded view of life.
Please refrain from insulting our members.

Dinosaur Khan
05-01-2010, 04:37 PM
Firstly, you're ASSUMING I don't believe in God. And I do... though, as I've said elsewhere, our UNDERSTANDING of God is most likely very different, and i conclude this from the sort of things you say and the sort of things I say.

Secondly, I thought you were going to prove me and Laevany Zalmay wrong in this thread ... Zalmay doesn't believe in God. How are you gonna prove him wrong?

Thirdly, I, too, am using MY intellect, MY understanding, MY faculty to believe what I believe and say what I say. Zalmay, too, is using the same. Yet, all of us have different beliefs. How's this? So, if you're trying to say that because you THINK about your beliefs and that's why we should agree with you (I said IFFF you think this), then that makes no sense to me, 'cause I, too, think about mine. It's not like I woke up one morning and said, "ALL RIGHT! God exists!" or "Okay! I don't believe this anymore!"

We're humans. We think, we learn, we share, we teach, we change, we grow, and we change even more.

Yes, we know you believe this. Now, try expounding on each one. Prove them. And as far as women are concerned, what exactly do you define as "best religion"? I don't doubt that NO religion that came before the 19th century sees women as equal partners of their men counterparts, but when you say "the best for women," it implies that IF Islam is bad, then all the others are even worse. See, THAT, I don't like.

And we've already talked on the punishments in Islam... one of my focuses tends to be on those who leave Islam. Why should they be killed? And, please, don't say, "Well, in other religions, it's no better! they're to be BURNT when they leave other religions!"

No, two wrongs don't make a right. If it's wrong in one, it's wrong in the others, too. But why kill apostates? (Note: This punishment for apostasy is NOT in the Quran.)

So, where do you wanna go with this? You wanna prove God exists? Go ahead. I think you'll be doing the world a huuuuuuuuuge favor, trust me. People have been debating this since human evolved into what she/he is today!

levanay doesnt believe in God, my first point is specifically directed to him.
This world and vast universe is creation...
At the night when i look into sky, i find innumerable stars. Sun is also star and it has solar system in which 8 planets revolves around the sun. Planets have moons revolving around them. Billions of stars make a galaxy and there are billions of galaxies. All these stars and galaxies are moving e.g sun is moving from the centre of its galaxy at the rate of 20 km/sec. The points is that frequecy and speed of each revolution of a moon, planet and star around its axis is always constant with no difference of second. Amazing, is'nt? no star clashes with another star....why? Are these stars move and revolve on its own and randomely? Why these stars are in such discipline? Why stars are not colliding with each other...who is providing centripetal force for stars and planets to move around their axis?
Consider a stone attached at the end of string , dinosaur khan is revolving this string attached to stone above his head. I am the central axis, and stone is revolving around me like a moon revolving around earth....when qrattu will ask heathen that who is causing this stone revolving, heathen will say that it is dinosaur khan... So guys think about solar system, stars, galaxies...some one is regulating and controlling all this system...such complex yet regulated universe can not be created on its own...if universe is creation then it must have a creator, call it God , allah or ishwar.
Let suppose dinosaur khan is an alien, he visits earth and the first thing that he see is a tea cup. He wonder what is it?
Then he wonders how it came into existence. He thinks of two probabilities
a) it automatically came into existence
b) some one has made it
like athiests he assumes that it must have created on its own.
But then he thinks that why it is created?
He has no answer for it but he assumes it must have some purpose as it has regular shape.
Then another question arise in his mind, if it is created on its own then why it has specific shape, what the purpose and function of tea cup? He discards the previous assumption and make a hypothesis that there is some one who has made this tea cup. In the mean while a human appears, takes the tea cup and fills it with tea and the drink it. It automatically clicks to alien that tea cup has a use and purpose, for serving a purpose, it is created by human to use it as source to contain tea. Human is the creator of tea cup.
Now like alien thinks who is the creator of humans, earth and whole universe?

..leavanay zalmay and qrratu, you both are invited to counter my above post.

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:39 PM
Um... if i'ts a Shiite fabrication, then why does it appear in Sunni hadiths? Check out, for instance, Sahih Bukhari:

Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do.

- Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546.

Last I checked, both Bukhari and Muslim were Sunni sources.

I will answer your fadak claims in separate posts.

It is a form of dishonesty to not paste the whole hadith. What you posted about abu bakr [r] and fadak is called tampering. That is not even how the hadith is mentioned in sahih albukhari. These are the actual ones. From the chapter "military expeditions led by the Prophet [s]"


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 368: Narrated 'Aisha:Fatima and Al'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, claiming their inheritance of the Prophet's land of Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said, "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Our property is not inherited, and whatever we leave is to be given in charity. But the family of Muhammad can take their sustenance from this property.' By Allah, I would love to do good to the Kith and kin of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own Kith and kin."


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546: Narrated 'Aisha:
Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect 'Ali much, but after her death, 'Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. 'Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). 'Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that 'Umar should come, 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then 'Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that 'Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of 'Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then 'Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. 'Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with 'Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:41 PM
As we can see. You deliberately tampered with the ahadith from sahih albukhari so it can suite your agenda. This is very wrong and dishonest. It ruins your credibility.

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:43 PM
I will post about sahih almuslim next

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:47 PM
and SahihMuslim:
“...So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life.”
- Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4352



From sahih almuslim.

Book 019, Number 4352:
It is narrated on the authority of Urwa b. Zubair who narrated from A'isha that she informed him that Fatima, daughter of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), sent someone to Abu Bakr to demand from him her share of the legacy left by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) from what Allah had bestowed upon him at Medina and Fadak and what was left from one-filth of the income (annually received) from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." The household of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) will live on the income from these properties, but, by Allah, I will not change the charity of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) from the condition in which it was in his own time. I will do the same with it as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upun him) himself used to do. So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people. After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him. So he sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months. He sent a person to Abu Bakr requesting him to visit him unaccompanied by anyone (disapproving the presence of Umar). 'Umar said to Abu Bakr: BY Allah, you will not visit them alone. Abu Bakr said: What will they do to me? By Allah, I will visit them. And he did pay them a visit alone. 'All recited Tashahhud (as it is done in the beginning of a religious sermon) ; then said: We recognise your moral excellence and what Allah has bestowed upon you. We do not envy the favour (i. e. the Catiphate) which Allah nas conferred upon you; but you have done it (assumed the position of Caliph) alone (without consulting us), and we thought we had a right (to be consulted) on account of our kinship with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He continued to talk to Abu Bakr (in this vein) until the latter's eyes welled up with tears. Then Abd Bakr spoke and said: By Allah, in Whose Hand is my life, the kinship of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) is dearer to me than the kinship of my own people. As regards the dispute that has arisen between you and me about these properties, I have not deviated from the right course and I have not given up doing about them what the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to do. So 'Ali said to Abu Bakr: This aftetnoon is (fixed) for (swearing) allegiance (to you). So when Abu Bakr had finished his Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and recited Tashahhud, and described the status of 'Ali, his delay in swearing allegiance and the excuse which lie had offered to him (for this delay). (After this) he asked for God's forgiveness. Then 'Ali b. Abu Talib recited the Tashahhud. extolled the merits of Abu Bakr and (said that) his action was nott prompted by any jealousy of Abu Bakr on his part or his refusal to accept the high position which Allah had conferred upon him, (adding: ) But we were of the opinion that we should have a share in the government, but the matter had been decided without taking us into confidence, and this displeased us. (Hence the delay in offering allegiance. The Muslims were pleased with this (explanation) and they said: You have done the right thing. The Muslims were (again) favourably inclined to 'Ali since he adopted the proper course of action.

Book 019, Number 4353:
It has been narrated on the authority of 'A'isha that Fatima and 'Abbas approached Abu Bakr, soliciting transfer of the legacy of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) to them. At that time, they were demanding his (Holy Prophet's) lands at Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them: I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). Then he quoted the hadith having nearly the same meaning as the one which has been narrated by Uqail on the authority of al-Zuhri (and which his gone before) except that in his version he said: Then 'Ali stood up, extolled the merits of Abu Bakr mentioned his superiority, and his earlier acceptance of Islam. Then he walked to Abu Bakr and swore allegiance to him. (At this) people turned towards 'Ali and said: you have done the right thing. And they became favourably inclined to 'Ali after he had adopted the proper course of action.

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:50 PM
These ahadith are very clear. Fadak did not belong to fatima [r] in the first place. So she was wrong in her demands.

And i had asked shias many times. Why did not ali[r] take fadak when he became the caliph? Bc abu bakr [r] was right. And fatima [r] was wrong.

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:51 PM
And btw. In shiaism. Women do not inherit land.

inqilab
05-01-2010, 05:53 PM
And in shia ahadith books as narrated by alajlisi’s haq ul yaqeen as well as in altusi’s amali,

"When fatima asked for fadak from abu bakr and he refused to give it to her, she returned full of anger that could not be described and she was sick; and she was angry with ali because he refused to help her."

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 06:08 PM
Mullah sahib,

poor girl is taught to reject the whole story and emphasize on void arguments from deviants.

This is what they call unbiased analysis at Islamic studies courses at non-Muslim universities.

Azmatullah
05-01-2010, 06:20 PM
Don't take anything from this Qurattugai when it comes to Islam. It does seem that she is intentionally spreading lies and misinformation to suit her ownself, and misguide others at the same time.

Dinosaur Khan
05-01-2010, 06:50 PM
She is not any an islamic intellectual or scholar, she is a feminist in the west who is studying the parts of islams related to women so that she can have points in arguements.

She is not studying or researching islam to seek guidance and spirtuality.
What i dont understand is that all the time she attacks and criticise islam, there is not a single occasion where she has stood to defend it, what kind of islamic studies, is she studying?

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 07:07 PM
She is not any an islamic intellectual or scholar, she is a feminist in the west who is studying the parts of islams related to women so that she can have points in arguements.

She is not studying or researching islam to seek guidance and spirtuality.
What i dont understand is that all the time she attacks and criticise islam, there is not a single occasion where she has stood to defend it, what kind of islamic studies, is she studying?
A good friend of mine use to be a kaafir. THen he reverted to Islam. And then he went to these Islamic studies courses at the Uni. And now he is a kaafir again.

These institutions are designed to make people disbelieve in Islam.

MazloomyarMaseed
05-01-2010, 08:31 PM
A good friend of mine use to be a kaafir. THen he reverted to Islam. And then he went to these Islamic studies courses at the Uni. And now he is a kaafir again.

These institutions are designed to make people disbelieve in Islam.


Who makes you call others Kaffir...Look at your own damme self man!

Your such a lunatic, IAm sick of you calling people kaffirs as if your the messiah from the heavens above, your a Nuisence!

If these courses are against Islam then WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN HOLLAND! go to Afghanistan and attend a university there, where you can educate other Afghans about ISI and your love for them

شمله ور خراساني
05-01-2010, 08:48 PM
Who makes you call others Kaffir...Look at your own damme self man!

Your such a lunatic, IAm sick of you calling people kaffirs as if your the messiah from the heavens above, your a Nuisence!

If these courses are against Islam then WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN HOLLAND! go to Afghanistan and attend a university there, where you can educate other Afghans about ISI and your love for them
http://www.anger-management-information.com/Free-Anger-Management-Classes.html

Roshina
05-03-2010, 12:20 AM
It is a form of dishonesty to not paste the whole hadith. What you posted about abu bakr [r] and fadak is called tampering. That is not even how the hadith is mentioned in sahih albukhari. These are the actual ones. From the chapter "military expeditions led by the Prophet [s]"


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 368: Narrated 'Aisha:Fatima and Al'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, claiming their inheritance of the Prophet's land of Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said, "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Our property is not inherited, and whatever we leave is to be given in charity. But the family of Muhammad can take their sustenance from this property.' By Allah, I would love to do good to the Kith and kin of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own Kith and kin."


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546: Narrated 'Aisha:
Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect 'Ali much, but after her death, 'Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. 'Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). 'Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that 'Umar should come, 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then 'Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that 'Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of 'Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then 'Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. 'Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with 'Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

What? None of these explain why Abu Bakr denied her her property, though. If he HAD given it to her, she wouldn't have been angry with him, as the exact same hadiths tell us.

Another member gave me the claims of someone else without any reference to hadith that Fatima was just sick, not angry :| But the hadiths pasted by even Sangar tell us that she was so angry with him she didn't talk to him until death.

I'm still not convinced. Keep trying, if that's what you're trying to do, brothers.

Roshina
05-03-2010, 12:25 AM
A good friend of mine use to be a kaafir. THen he reverted to Islam. And then he went to these Islamic studies courses at the Uni. And now he is a kaafir again.

These institutions are designed to make people disbelieve in Islam.

Where did he go to school? Who were his professors? Which classes did he take? How much knowledge of Islam did he have PRIOR to entering these Islamic Studies courses?

Also, I know of people who have thoroughly studied Islam in Muslim countries and abandoned it upon discovering what they did about it. Then I know of others for whom the experience was the exact opposite: They started to appreciate Islam even more.

Then I have friends (not born Muslims) who have accepted Islam after studying it in western institutions, just as I have others who have rejected it after taking the same courses.

Conclusion? You can't generalize when it comes to experiences and people's responses to them. Each person is going to have a different experience.

And so what that your friend left Islam after studying it? Perhaps he realized it's not the best religion for him, just as some people convert to Islam believing it IS the best religion for them.

Roshina
05-03-2010, 01:10 AM
She is not any an islamic intellectual or scholar,
that is correct! I have never, ever claimed to be an Islamic scholar or intellectual whatsoever. I have often emphasized that everyone should verify whatEVER I say so that they can make their OWN conclusions about it.

I'm not a scholar, and I do not have to be a scholar to talk on Islamic matters. However, I am studying Islam whether you like to believe it or not. I don't need your consent or approval, and if it's people like you, Azmatullah, Sangar, and MilitantMullah who are saying that what I'm learnin is not correct, I find myself utterly amused--if only you could imagine the smile on my face right now ;)

Your opinions don't matter to me, just as mine shouldn't matter to you, brothers. So, move on.


she is a feminist in the west
Well, let's define feminist first. If a feminist is someone who acknowledges the universal mistreatment of women and takes action against it, then I'm certainly a feminist. I'm not sure how you define it, though. It'd be interesting to hear your definition.

who is studying the parts of islams related to women so that she can have points in arguements.

Several things in this comment of yours.
First, you seem to conclude that I HAVE "points in arguments" - which I believe is an excellent quality. Whether I actually have this or not is a different story, but I certainly thank you for thinking that I do!

Second, PARTS of Islam? Well, I can't think of anyone who studies ALL of Islam, lol. You really can't study ALL of Islam - that'd take more than one lifetime, you see. My focus tends to be on women and non-Muslims, and so that's what I'm studying. In general, however, I'm studying Islamic law, under which are the "categories" of women and non-Muslims... and, do you notice, there are no categories of "MEN's rights in Islam" :O One wonders why, huh.

Third, in the west. Yes -- in the west. And why? I JUST explained that in a thread I opened just a minute ago. Here's the link (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?p=20719#post20719), and it's called "Doing Islamic Studies in the West." It's particularly for you, Sangar, and the rest who are intimidated by the idea of studying Islam in the west.


She is not studying or researching islam to seek guidance and spirtuality.
There are many, many, many different reasons people study Islam. I don't study just Islam; I study others as well (mostly Hinduism, Christianity, and Judaism, not others at the moment) -- it's so that I can confirm my own faith in Islam. This is *my* reason. And you have absolutely NO right and NO reason to conclude that I'm not studying Islam for any spiritual purposes or to seek guidance. If I passed judgment (which I sometimes wish I did, really; they help in times like these), I would tell you that you're being very un-Islamic for saying this because your such a biased conclusion can be interpreted as suspicion, and we know the Quran tells us to avoid suspicion.

Nonetheless, how do you define "spirituality"? I have learned something about myself during the last few years of my studying Islam: When I was an extremist Muslim (and, before that, a typical Muslim who got headaches every time someone challenged her (weak) faith), I was far, far, far from being spiritual. Now, my relationship with God has become so strong that I FEEL God inside and outside of me. I can QUESTION God without feeling like I'm doing something wrong. I'd love to go more into my concept of God and my relationship with God, but you most likely won't understand because you think that the ONLY reason a person should study Islam is to be spiritual -- and I obviously disagree.

However, if you must know, the reason I'm studying Islam is so that we can help shape the crooked Muslim world. Everyone agrees that no Muslim country today is actually "Islamic." Perhaps you disagree that I'm helping at all, but I dread what your definition of "helping Muslims" must be, and, knowing your mentality, I'd rather take the exact opposite path than you recommend.


What i dont understand is that all the time she attacks and criticise islam, there is not a single occasion where she has stood to defend it, what kind of islamic studies, is she studying?

The reason for my always standing up to "criticize" Islam, as you say, is so that people like YOU, Sangar, MilitantMullah, Azmatullah, and your supporters will actually start LEARNING Islam. Honestly speaking, I don't think you would have gone to research the material on Islam we have discussed so far.

My own faith has been confirmed by me, and I, too, was challenged and it led to my gaining a deeper understanding of Islam that I KNOW I would not have achieved otherwise. And I *know* that there are Muslims out there who read our posts and actually for one question their beliefs and hopefully start studying instead of believing blindly. If they don't, then so be it. I don't believe in force, so people can beleive whatEVER they want to believe. For me, the best way to learn is to be challenged. It pushes me to research.

Roshina
05-03-2010, 01:40 AM
Some things I'd like to say before I continue responding to anyone's messages here:

When you wanna "debate" with me on matters of Islam, keep some things in mind:

- If your aim is to prove me wrong, you will NOT succeed -- I simply won't let you, and those who know me on this forum know this about me. If it's supposed to be a competition between us, I will make sure I win, and I'm sure you don't want that. And believe me you, we will get NOWHERE with such an imbecilic goal in mind.

- The purpose of the "debate" should be to learn from each other and *understand* each other's views, not to win each other over.

- IF you wanna have a "debate" with me, you MUST have learned Islam from many different angles and not just the ahl-e-hadith. You MUST know the arguments of the ahl-e-Qurans, for instance, and you MUST know what person A did what she/he did and WHY most Muslims are against it (e.g., Amina Wadud). If you don't, then make no mistake: I will not respond to your call for a "debate." [[I note this is the case here, which tempts me to just ignore what you folks are saying here. For more information, you may check out my reason for WHY it's necessary to study Islam from more than one angle at this thread (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?p=20719#post20719).]]

- I don't call for debates. Period. I'm on PF to learn whatever I can and to share whatever I think needs to be shared. If you're not happy with this, live with it or just move on.

Other points I'd like to make are ...

Every single thing that’s being discussed here has already been discussed in other threads, or at least threads are opened for them.

For God’s existence, check out the thread "Does God Exist?" (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=166)

For Islamic law/Sharia, you may visit two threads:

1- "Questions on Islam, Sharia, ..." (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=786)
2- "Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights" (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=939)

For women: "Women in Islam." (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=160)

Also, I recommend each member here to first know the etiquette of debate. (I know, I know, I myself need to learn them as well, but we can all learn together, no biggie.) Here’s the link for that: "Etiquette of Debate." (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=437)

There’s no point in creating new threads when there are already some available under the exact same topics. Someone else here, Aseer wror, thought that he would “debate” with me about religion, and I willingly accepted. It was extreme disappointment because he ended up handing it over to another person who joined the discussion. That thread, too, is all about Islam. It's called "Qrratugai vs Aseer." (http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=441) (I don't like "vs" titles at all; they give the wrong message.)

@ Dinosaur Khan (or Jodigul, as you were formerly known as), you and I have had “debates” on other religious topics, and you did not show any signs of knowing what you were talking about. Sorry to have to say this, but it is really frustrating when someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about and “challenge” people to a “debate,” whatever the latter means.

No one here is a scholar, of course, but do we HAVE to be scholars to talk about Islam? Well, you might have to, but I don't.

Sangara, as I’ve said in another thread (and I'm pasting from the thread on Islamic Studies in the West), you think there’s only ONE form of Islam and there’s only ONE way of STUDYING Islam – absolutely untrue, to both. How can I discuss Islam with someone who thinks his way of learning it is superior to other people’s way of studying Islam? You said in another thread that you’re being accused of an extremist or something, but I wonder … what else do you expect when you are SO totally convinced that everyone should study Islam in a madrasa/mosque the way you’re doing, and use the resources that YOU are using? (Of course, I don't MIND using the same resources you're using, but I REFUSE to confine myself to those alone; I have absolutely no boundaries in my learning. I want to even know what anti-Muslims/anti-Islam people have to say about Islam. To me, those views weigh as much as Taliban's views do, which weigh as much as new converts' views.)

So, yeah, if that's what you want me to do, I must say ... No way! May God prevent me from ever even IMAGINING walking on the same path as yours! :) Aameen.
Peace!

Roshina
05-03-2010, 02:08 AM
And btw. In shiaism. Women do not inherit land.

Absolutely untrue.

In Shiism, *uncles* get absolutely nothing from the children of the deceased father. ;) Daughters get FULL inheritance as opposed to the Sunni belief that daughters must divide it between uncles.

I have no reference for this at the moment, but I will soon when I go home, ka khaire.

Still, I'd like to ask you to PROVE to us that in Shiism, women don't get inheritance in land.

And what makes you think that Shiites are not Islamic in their practices of inheritance? They follow what the Quran literally tells them to, which both they and Sunnis agree on. So I'm not sure where you get that from.

The differences between Shiites and Sunnis mostly tend to be in the exegetical sense--i.e., in commentaries and whatnot -- NOT in the literal text of the Quran. Both Sunnis and Shiites use the exact same Quran, the exact same verses, but they just interpret it differently. However, the two branches don't accept the same hadiths as authentic. There are some they agree on, but others no.